Pavis, City Gods and Wyters.

[Tarumath]

Is Pavis the same type of entity as a Wyter and is his actual magic working the same way for the communauty of Pavis? 

I assumed that City Gods and Wyters are the same thing (also assumed that communauty spirits of animists are similar and that Malkioni simply use Chains of Veneration for all their communal magic instead) but I'm not sure given that the description of the communal worship of Pavis imply that they are just worshipping him and then he uses his own magic to magically maintain and protect the city.

My own guess is that he is not even really a City God and that people sacrificing to him is a theistic form of a Chain of Veneration (or just lending him magical energy in a similar way) but maybe City Gods are different from Wyters?

Thanks!

[M Helsdon]

24 minutes ago, Tarumath said:

My own guess is that he is not even really a City God and that people sacrificing to him is a theistic form of a Chain of Veneration (or just lending him magical energy in a similar way) but maybe City Gods are different from Wyters?

My understanding is that it's a matter of scale. The point where powerful spirits are gods, and minor gods are spirits is very blurred. As a deity with temples, priests and worshippers, Pavis is the 'god' and community 'spirit' and guardian for his city. As the founder of his city, his worship is necessary for its continued survival.

For a really powerful city god, there's Tondiji down in Pamaltela with cults that are major religions elsewhere, such as Orlanth, Ikadz, Malkion, Ompalam, Pamalt, and Varama the Sun all subservient to him in his great temple.

Edited April 4, 2018 by M Helsdon

[Joerg]

As I understand it, a wyter is an other side being that coordinates the community magic and that has a physical presence in its community. The Pavis Temple crystal could be said to be such a physical presence, but it might just as well only be the centerpiece of the congregational building, acting as a conduit to the Ohter Side.

Being the source for a grimoire doesn't necessarily mean that Pavis exists in some sorcerous state only, or that he doesn't have any theist divine attributes. Pavis, Dormal and a few other non-Lunar apotheosized mortals are hard to categorize.

If you compare Hauberk Jon, the wyter of Jonstown, you will find that he didn't undergo an apotheosis to leave the world of the living but died a natural death. Somehow his heroic soul could  be contacted there, and be convinced to take over the duties of whichever entity was asked to perform this duty when the city was founded.

 

It appears to be a pattern that a founder takes over the role of the community spirit after death or after apotheosis. For lesser entities, that is all that they are, but entities who have a greater magical potential might have roles beyond that of a wyter.

[David Scott]

6 hours ago, Tarumath said:

Is Pavis the same type of entity as a Wyter and is his actual magic working the same way for the communauty of Pavis?

Maybe. But first to paraphrase a well known phrase, the religion of Pavis is not the Religion of the Pavis Cult. We know he was born of a specialist breeding program and ultimately he was a sorcerer from the EWF. As such, Pavis is presented in Pavis GtA is a sorcerous cult.

Quote

In 860 S.T., Pavis himself retired permanently to his palace.

He's still there inside his crystal sphere. I think of it like a stasis chamber - immortality at the expense of inaction, like a fake piece of Godtime, an almost infinite spell of longevity. You can visit him in his timeless state if you're an initiate. He's clearly worshipped and so receives power from his followers. In return I think gives the City Harmony rune spell although he was a sorcerer. It's weird side effect of his temple. Does he act like a Wyter, No. Do the spirits of his dead worshippers act like one, sure why not. They've made him into something else. I don't think he teaches any other rune magic, but his grimoires live on. His protective magic was already in place on the city before he died. I think flintnail maintains it if needed.

Edited April 4, 2018 by David Scott
I did like brewing better than breeding though

[soltakss]

On 04/04/2018 at 1:57 PM, Tarumath said:

Is Pavis the same type of entity as a Wyter and is his actual magic working the same way for the communauty of Pavis? 

I think that City Gods and Wyters share many attributes. A City God of a small town may well be less powerful than a Wyter of a large tribe. 

Both are local deities, both support a restricted population and both supply localised and focussed magic.

I assumed that City Gods and Wyters are the same thing (also assumed that communauty spirits of animists are similar and that Malkioni simply use Chains of Veneration for all their communal magic instead) but I'm not sure given that the description of the communal worship of Pavis imply that they are just worshipping him and then he uses his own magic to magically maintain and protect the city.

Pavis is definitely worshipped as a deity by many of the people of Pavis.

However, his cult also provides Grimoires and various other stuff, so he crosses a lot of boundaries. 

My own guess is that he is not even really a City God and that people sacrificing to him is a theistic form of a Chain of Veneration (or just lending him magical energy in a similar way) but maybe City Gods are different from Wyters?

I think he is a City God, but has wider powers than most, due to his knowledge of sorcery and mysticism.

Don't forget that most of the inhabitants of Pavis are not Malkioni, so would not normally venerate Pavis. It is entirely possible to invent a new way of worship specifically for Pavis, but I think that is overkill.

 

 

[davecake]

If a city god is the same as a city wyter, then Pavis is that, and that is where his Man rune city harmony magic comes from. But that is not the only magic Pavis has. Not just his sorcery, but the various magic he acquired through deeds in his life time.