Questions about the Lunar gods and the first Moonson

[Runeblogger]

I'm enjoying reading the Glorantha Sourcebook. Although I consider myself a Gloranphile, I had never given any deep look at the Lunar myths and so I'm specially liking the section about the Lunar gods and the history of the Lunar Empire. Not that I'm planning to use any of this information for any actual campaign soon, but it's highly enjoyable anyway. 

Some of the things I'm finding make me wonder a lot about the Lunars. Here are some of the questions that popped into my head strongly while reading:

1. Rashorana. Quite the mind-blowing entity with illumination and all that. But what surprised me the most was the dance of names. We are told she was called Atarks. OK. Then the text says "As Sedenya, she was cast down from the heavens and shattered". OK, so the present Sedenya is at least a part of Rashorana. And then the text says "As Osentalka, he was made incomplete". OK. History repeating in the case of Argrath vs. Sedenya. And then: "As Nysalor, he was dismembered and cast about". (same text as in p. 679 of the Guide). So what's the difference between Osentalka and Nysalor? Are they different stages of the same god? The Appendix H of The Guide to Glorantha only mentions Nysalor, not Osentalka. Why?

2. The Seven Mothers and the seven ancient moon goddesses. I guess the Red Goddess is a very Godlearnerish mix of these seven goddesses, and thanks to the phases of the moon, she exists and does not exist at the same time, thus tricking the Compromise and allowing her to be born in Time. So the heroquest the Seven Mothers did to create the Red Goddess... did each of the Seven Mothers embody one of those ancient moon goddesses during the heroquest? So for example, if Lesilla is the Crescent Go Moon and Deezola is associated with the same phase, does that mean that Deezola heroquested as Lesilla in order to create the Red Goddess?

2. After her first conquests, the Red Goddess went on a heroquest but she didn't return. She was trapped in the Godplane while heroquesting, so Yanafal Tarnils had to go find her and help so she could go on with her quest. I wonder what might have been this place where the goddess was trapped? The Carmanians refered to it as "the Seven Teeth and Two Jaws". Does that mean the Devil? Yanafal Tarnils must have been a hell of a heroquester, BTW. He even faced Humakt and lived. Perhaps his association with Natha (both are Empty Half Moon) helped him trick Humakt because he managed to be both alive and dead at the same time?

3. The first Lunar Emperor was a powerful and reckless heroquester, he even managed to stole Orlanth's chariot (!!!). I wonder how he managed to do it. Was he illuminated and so infiltrated the cult of Orlanth to get the secrets of his myths and then performed some orlanthi heroquest? Or did he stole Orlanth's chariot in some Solar or Lunar myth? If the latter, what kind of myth may that have been?

[soltakss]

14 minutes ago, Runeblogger said:

I'm enjoying reading the Glorantha Sourcebook. Although I consider myself a Gloranphile, I had never given any deep look at the Lunar myths and so I'm specially liking the section about the Lunar gods and the history of the Lunar Empire. Not that I'm planning to use any of this information for any actual campaign soon, but it's highly enjoyable anyway. 

Some of the things I'm finding make me wonder a lot about the Lunars. Here are some of the questions that popped into my head strongly while reading:

Lunar Mythology is interesting.

1. Rashorana. Quite the mind-blowing entity with illumination and all that. But what surprised me the most was the dance of names. We are told she was called Atarks. OK. Then the text says "As Sedenya, she was cast down from the heavens and shattered". OK, so the present Sedenya is at least a part of Rashorana. And then the text says "As Osentalka, he was made incomplete". OK. History repeating in the case of Argrath vs. Sedenya. And then: "As Nysalor, he was dismembered and cast about". (same text as in p. 679 of the Guide). So what's the difference between Osentalka and Nysalor? Are they different stages of the same god? The Appendix H of The Guide to Glorantha only mentions Nysalor, not Osentalka. Why?

 

I had forgotten about Osentalka. Essentially, Osentalka is the god that the Broken Council wanted to make and Nysalor is what they made. I think that Osentalka incorporates both Nysalor and Gbaji.

 

2. The Seven Mothers and the seven ancient moon goddesses. I guess the Red Goddess is a very Godlearnerish mix of these seven goddesses, and thanks to the phases of the moon, she exists and does not exist at the same time, thus tricking the Compromise and allowing her to be born in Time. So the heroquest the Seven Mothers did to create the Red Goddess... did each of the Seven Mothers embody one of those ancient moon goddesses during the heroquest? So for example, if Lesilla is the Crescent Go Moon and Deezola is associated with the same phase, does that mean that Deezola heroquested as Lesilla in order to create the Red Goddess?

Probably not, as the Moon Goddesses were not very well known at the time.

They probably did embody some of the powers of the various Moon Goddesses, but not conciously and not deliberately. I think that they then recognised the Moon Goddesses after the Red Goddess was born and started her research/HeroQuesting.

I think the Seven Mothers HeroQuested as their original deities, so Queen Deezola used Ernaldan powers, Irripi Ontor used Lhankor Mhy powers, Yanafal Tarnils used Humakti powers and so on. At that point, they were not Heroes, they were just HeroQuestors. Later on they became SuperHeroes, then Deities and awakened their Lunar abilities, but at that time they had not done so.

 

3. After her first conquests, the Red Goddess went on a heroquest but she didn't return. She was trapped in the Godplane while heroquesting, so Yanafal Tarnils had to go find her and help so she could go on with her quest. I wonder what might have been this place where the goddess was trapped? The Carmanians refered to it as "the Seven Teeth and Two Jaws". Does that mean the Devil? Yanafal Tarnils must have been a hell of a heroquester, BTW. He even faced Humakt and lived. Perhaps his association with Natha (both are Empty Half Moon) helped him trick Humakt because he managed to be both alive and dead at the same time?

I remember reading somewhere that Yanafal Tarnils went into Hell, found the Red Goddess impaled on a spike (or crucified, I cannot remember which) and took her place, allowing her to escape. She then came back to rescue him, or freed him in the same Quest, again I can't remember the details.

He fought Humakt to a standstill, but he had his bodyguard of Heroes whereas Humakt's bodyguard of Heroes had run off chasing the Young Elementals, or some such Lunar demons. Still, it was still impressive. I also seem to remember, although it might be an unofficial thing, that Yanafal Tarnils was not defeated by Humakt because he was actually killed in the fight but returned from death, thereby breaking the prime Humakti geas. 

 

4. The first Lunar Emperor was a powerful and reckless heroquester, he even managed to stole Orlanth's chariot (!!!). I wonder how he managed to do it. Was he illuminated and so infiltrated the cult of Orlanth to get the secrets of his myths and then performed some orlanthi heroquest? Or did he stole Orlanth's chariot in some Solar or Lunar myth? If the latter, what kind of myth may that have been?

I didn't know about stealing Orlanth's Chariot. Mastakos wouldn't have been very happy about that.

His early HeroQuests might have been as a Yelm Hero/HeroQuestor, so it makes sense that he did some Solar HeroQuesting. 

However, his Lunar connection has always been there, unlike the Seven Mothers, so he would always have had a Lunar spin to things. I very much doubt that he infiltrated the cult of Orlanth, as Orlanth and the Lunars are very opposed and always have been.

[M Helsdon]

52 minutes ago, Runeblogger said:

1. Rashorana. Quite the mind-blowing entity with illumination and all that. But what surprised me the most was the dance of names. We are told she was called Atarks. OK. Then the text says "As Sedenya, she was cast down from the heavens and shattered". OK, so the present Sedenya is at least a part of Rashorana. And then the text says "As Osentalka, he was made incomplete". OK. History repeating in the case of Argrath vs. Sedenya. And then: "As Nysalor, he was dismembered and cast about". (same text as in p. 679 of the Guide). So what's the difference between Osentalka and Nysalor? Are they different stages of the same god? The Appendix H of The Guide to Glorantha only mentions Nysalor, not Osentalka. Why?

Purely my understanding....

Osentalka was the name given as part of the 'God Project' - 'The Perfect One', a title rather than a name. Nysalor is simply one of his names.

52 minutes ago, Runeblogger said:

2. The Seven Mothers and the seven ancient moon goddesses. I guess the Red Goddess is a very Godlearnerish mix of these seven goddesses, and thanks to the phases of the moon, she exists and does not exist at the same time, thus tricking the Compromise and allowing her to be born in Time. So the heroquest the Seven Mothers did to create the Red Goddess... did each of the Seven Mothers embody one of those ancient moon goddesses during the heroquest? So for example, if Lesilla is the Crescent Go Moon and Deezola is associated with the same phase, does that mean that Deezola heroquested as Lesilla in order to create the Red Goddess?

No idea, but the number seven reoccurs in Gloranthan myth - the Seven Lightbringers, the Seven Mothers, almost as though the Seven Mothers were attempting to heroquest the Seven Lightbringers, and did or got something else.

52 minutes ago, Runeblogger said:

2. After her first conquests, the Red Goddess went on a heroquest but she didn't return. She was trapped in the Godplane while heroquesting, so Yanafal Tarnils had to go find her and help so she could go on with her quest. I wonder what might have been this place where the goddess was trapped? The Carmanians refered to it as "the Seven Teeth and Two Jaws". Does that mean the Devil? Yanafal Tarnils must have been a hell of a heroquester, BTW. He even faced Humakt and lived. Perhaps his association with Natha (both are Empty Half Moon) helped him trick Humakt because he managed to be both alive and dead at the same time?

It sounds very much like one of the descriptions of the deeper Underworld.

 

52 minutes ago, Runeblogger said:

3. The first Lunar Emperor was a powerful and reckless heroquester, he even managed to stole Orlanth's chariot (!!!). I wonder how he managed to do it. Was he illuminated and so infiltrated the cult of Orlanth to get the secrets of his myths and then performed some orlanthi heroquest? Or did he stole Orlanth's chariot in some Solar or Lunar myth? If the latter, what kind of myth may that have been?

Chariots are usually Solar vehicles, even though other gods have them. Orlanth took just about every other Elemental weapon, and he may have taken/copied Yelm's chariot as well, especially as Elmal is sometimes the Sun Stallion pulling Orlanth's chariot. A very tangled web of mythology.

Edited April 7, 2018 by M Helsdon

[Joerg]

38 minutes ago, Runeblogger said:

So what's the difference between Osentalka and Nysalor? Are they different stages of the same god? The Appendix H of The Guide to Glorantha only mentions Nysalor, not Osentalka.

In my understanding, Osentalka the Perfect One could exist only in the timelessness of the Sunstop. When the sun returned to its path chained by time, only Nysalor was left. (And Arkat, half a world away.)

 

38 minutes ago, Runeblogger said:

So the heroquest the Seven Mothers did to create the Red Goddess... did each of the Seven Mothers embody one of those ancient moon goddesses during the heroquest?

I doubt it. While Deezola, Teelo Norri and possibly Jakaleel are candidates for certain phases of the Lunar goddess, I cannot see Yanafal, Irrippi or Danfive in those roles.

38 minutes ago, Runeblogger said:

So for example, if Lesilla is the Crescent Go Moon and Deezola is associated with the same phase, does that mean that Deezola heroquested as Lesilla in order to create the Red Goddess?

Deezola was the ruler of Torang, a Rinliddi city not that far from the Blue Moon Plateau under which ancient Mernita is supposed to be buried. I don't see any bird connections for any of the Seven Mothers, so Deezola and her cabal are likely to have followed some other main idea.

38 minutes ago, Runeblogger said:

2. After her first conquests, the Red Goddess went on a heroquest but she didn't return. She was trapped in the Godplane while heroquesting, so Yanafal Tarnils had to go find her and help so she could go on with her quest. I wonder what might have been this place where the goddess was trapped?

A deeper Hell. Deep as Subere, at least, way deeper than former Wonderhome where Bijiif (Ashes of Yelm) resides.

 

38 minutes ago, Runeblogger said:

3. The first Lunar Emperor was a powerful and reckless heroquester, he even managed to stole Orlanth's chariot (!!!). I wonder how he managed to do it. Was he illuminated and so infiltrated the cult of Orlanth to get the secrets of his myths and then performed some orlanthi heroquest? Or did he stole Orlanth's chariot in some Solar or Lunar myth? If the latter, what kind of myth may that have been?

Orlanth's chariot gets attacked by Jagrekriand, the Heortling name for Shargash. This should be reflected in a Dara Happan myth where Shargash or one of his sons attacks the vehicle of Rebellus Terminus. Possibly during his invasion of the sky, in which case Lunar Chronoportation might rip both questers from Orlanth's invasion to Umath's invasion, which ended fatally for Umath.

The first Lunar Emperor ruled until he was slain for the second or third time by Sheng Seleris (3rd or 4th wane), so he saw the expansion through the Conquering Daughter in the 2nd wane, and had opportunity to interact with the Orlanthi of the conquered provinces, or even beyond.

I don't think that an infiltration would have been possible, or desirable. To become more like Orlanth, even temporarily, would be to become less of Moonson.

[Runeblogger]

33 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

No idea, but the number seven reoccurs in Gloranthan myth - the Seven Lightbringers, the Seven Mothers, almost as though the Seven Mothers were attempting to heroquest the Seven Lightbringers, and did or got something else.

Yes, that idea had also crossed my mind some time ago. So if the Seven Mothers did the Lightbringers Quest... who embodied who?

Irripi Ontor -> Lhankhor Mhy, obviously.
Deezola --> Chalana Arroy?
Jakaleel --> Issaries??? Eurmal (madness)???
Yanafal Tarnils --> Orlanth?
Danfive Xaron --> Eurmal? (Danfive was a prisoner, just as Eurmal was at the beginning of the LBQ)
Teelo Norri --> I'd say Flesh Man. The innocent needed to be killed to start the quest (then they all follow Flesh Man to Hell)
She Who Waits = Ginna Jar

Edited April 7, 2018 by Runeblogger

[Joerg]

2 minutes ago, Runeblogger said:

Yes, that idea had also crossed my mind some time ago. So if the Seven Mothers did the Lightbringers Quest... who embodied who?

Irripi Ontor -> Lhankhor Mhy, obviously.
Deezola --> Chalana Arroy?
Jakaleel --> Issaries??? Eurmal (madness)???
Yanafal Tarnils --> Orlanth?
Danfive Xaron --> Eurmal?
Teelo Norri --> I'd say Flesh Man
She Who Waits = Ginna Jar

The Lightbringers' Quest as we know it from Cults of Prax and King of Sartar is that of the Heortlings, which (due to Harmast being a Heortling) is often regarded as the original one.

Other hill barbarians who were encountered by the Lightbringer missionaries in the first and second century had stories different from what the Heortlings knew. The Seven Mothers' Quest may have used such a variant, possibly with variant participants, too.

The closest somewhat Orlanthi folk to Torang are the raccoon-totem people from Imther.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

His early HeroQuests might have been as a Yelm Hero/HeroQuestor, so it makes sense that he did some Solar HeroQuesting.

He certainly had to complete the Ten Tests of Solar mythology to become the Emperor.  There's a lot of preparatory steps to that too.  For examples of types of heroquests, you might look over Dara Happa Stirs.  While not canon, and obviously 2nd Age, I think it drew heavily on GRoY and FS and could give you some insight.  Of course, the whole episode with Emperor Yelmgatha is rather suspicious.  Although both the Sourcebook and FS make it sound like they were close friends and allies, that Yelmgatha dies in 1/3 after making the Red Emperor his heir does make you wonder.

52 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The closest somewhat Orlanthi folk to Torang are the raccoon-totem people from Imther.

The raccoon folk are in Vanch, but yes they are the closest Orlanthi to Torang.  The Wilktar tribe of Imther are more regular Orlanthi, while the Laramite tribe is more Yelmalion.

1 hour ago, Runeblogger said:

Danfive Xaron --> Eurmal? (Danfive was a prisoner, just as Eurmal was at the beginning of the LBQ)

Danfive Xaron is Orlanth bound.

1 hour ago, Runeblogger said:

So if the Seven Mothers did the Lightbringers Quest... 

I believe they did.  Yanafal is the leader, in the "Orlanth" role, but without the "Storm" connection.  Orlanth did bear his Sword "Humakt" along on the LBQ after all.

1 hour ago, Runeblogger said:

Deezola --> Chalana Arroy?

Yes, both in healing roles.  Deezola is the Binder Within.

Jakaleel may be something of the pathfinder and bargainer for them in the Underworld.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

I don't think that an infiltration would have been possible, or desirable. To become more like Orlanth, even temporarily, would be to become less of Moonson.

Agree.  There are plenty of solar myths fighting Orlanth, Umath, Vingkot, Valind, and other Storm gods to draw upon.  

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

While Deezola, Teelo Norri and possibly Jakaleel are candidates for certain phases of the Lunar goddess, I cannot see Yanafal, Irrippi or Danfive in those roles.

I don't see why not.  The Seven Mothers cult description in Pavis book (p.397) clearly makes the connections between the Lunar teacher and the ancient moon goddess.

Phase of the Moon: Crescent Come
Day of the Week (Dragon Pass): Windsday
Seven Mothers Teacher: Danfive Xaron
Ancient Goddess: Orogeria
Phase Associations: the Hunt for what is missing in order to be made whole.  [And in the picture this is the Red Goddess riding the Sky Bear, aka Orlanth's Ring]
Comparable Rune: Air

Phase of the Moon: Empty Half
Day of the Week (Dragon Pass): Fireday
Seven Mothers Teacher: Yanafal Tarnils.
Ancient Goddess: Natha.
Phase Associations: Revenge, taking the injustices she has suffered and visits them upon the deserving.
Comparable Runes: Darkness and Death

Phase of the Moon: Full Moon
Day of the Week (Dragon Pass): Wildday
Seven Mothers Teacher: Irrippi Ontor.
Ancient Goddess: Zaytenera.  [Who is called Zaytenerus by Plentonius]
Phase Associations: Insight and Understanding. Insight can cause madness but understanding restores balance to a perturbed mind.
Comparable Runes: Truth and Fire

[Charles]

The Lunar myths are 'in-Glorantha'. So be aware that they could be part propaganda. Or even largely propaganda with core truths.

[soltakss]

18 hours ago, Runeblogger said:

Yes, that idea had also crossed my mind some time ago. So if the Seven Mothers did the Lightbringers Quest... who embodied who?

Irripi Ontor -> Lhankhor Mhy, obviously.
Deezola --> Chalana Arroy?
Jakaleel --> Issaries??? Eurmal (madness)???
Yanafal Tarnils --> Orlanth?
Danfive Xaron --> Eurmal? (Danfive was a prisoner, just as Eurmal was at the beginning of the LBQ)
Teelo Norri --> I'd say Flesh Man. The innocent needed to be killed to start the quest (then they all follow Flesh Man to Hell)
She Who Waits = Ginna Jar

Very broadly, maybe, but I think they crossed roles quite a lot.

A lot of people have suggested that the Sevem Mothers Quest is a variant of the LBQ in the past and it makes a lot of sense. You build your quest on what has been done before. However, they were not rescuing a deity that they had wrongeds, nor a deity trapped in Hell, so they would have had to improvise a lot on the Quest. Yanafal tarnils having some Arkat knowledge would have helped as well, but I have no idea if that was the case.

Tello Norri is definitely a Flesh Man stand-in, but also acts as the vessel for the restored Red Goddess. Hers is the most poignant part of the ritual, an orphan girl plucked off the streets just before the ritual and forced to take part.

Irrippi Ontor, Queen Deezola and She Who Waits make sense. She Who Waits probably had a different role, but has been idenified with Ginna Jar due to them both being purged from the story.

Issaries was the Pathfinder, rather than the Trader,  so Danfive Xaron makes some sense as issaries. 

Yanafal Tarnils was a leader, but so was Queen Deezola. He makes more sense as Orlanth than Eurmal, though.

Jakaleel is far more difficult, as she does not fit any of the roles. She might have been shoehorned into Eurmal, but Danfive Xaron could act as the sacrifice or the bound man, both attributes shared with Eurmal.

None of them are a perfect fit, which makes sense as they were not doing a perfect LBQ.

[Runeblogger]

3 hours ago, soltakss said:

However, they were not rescuing a deity that they had wrongeds, nor a deity trapped in Hell, so they would have had to improvise a lot on the Quest. 

I think I read somewhere Jakaleel was the brains behind the whole operation. She knew a lot about the blue moon. So their goal was to resurrect the ancient Moon goddess, who somehow hadn't make it out of Hell at the Dawn. 

My guess is the remains of that goddess in Hell were in pieces, so Jakaleel fused lost portions of other six goddesses into one. I'd say Verithurusa was the original one, the one innocent Teelo Norri became first. Then perhaps Deezola found Lesilla, Jakaleel found Gerra, and so on. By having the new goddess be a different goddess each day of the week, they managed to resurrect/create a new goddess.

I think Jakaleel was Issaries in the LBQ, she knew the way towards the seven pieces. When they had them all, they got to Yelm's Hall, Yanafal Tarnils passed the tests, the Red Goddess took a piece of the Net, the Gates of Dawn opened... and these powerful Lunar heroquesters accompanied the new goddess to the surface.

[Charles]

I am skeptical about mapping the Seven Mothers Quest too closely to the LBQ. But I do think that they both tap into an underlying structure that works: six meet (*1); go to the underworld; attract a mysterious seventh to be their wyter (*2); and collectively achieve much more than the sum of their parts. But otherwise their membership, methods and goals are quite different.

However, Moonson and Great Sister both appear to tap into a similar structure as Belintar, where the demi-god reincarnates using the body of a powerful worshiper; uses it up and then reincarnates again. No-one would suggest that they are identical.

*1 - six to seven seems to be an ideal; LBQs have been performed since Time with other numbers of questers

*2 - Ernalda worshipers hint that it was Ernalda that set the whole LBQ up; and then joined as the mysterious Ginna Jar; and then by some sleight of hand became Arachne Solara. Personally, I take that last transition as evidence that some of the priestesses indulge too much in recreational drugs that are sometimes also used for worship and prophecy

Edited April 10, 2018 by Charles

[davecake]

On 08/04/2018 at 5:03 AM, Runeblogger said:

After her first conquests, the Red Goddess went on a heroquest but she didn't return. She was trapped in the Godplane while heroquesting, so Yanafal Tarnils had to go find her and help so she could go on with her quest. I wonder what might have been this place where the goddess was trapped? The Carmanians refered to it as "the Seven Teeth and Two Jaws". Does that mean the Devil? Yanafal Tarnils must have been a hell of a heroquester, BTW.

There is an account both the Red Goddess quest, and the climax of Yanafal Tarnils quest to help her, in The Lives of Sedenya as published in Rule One. I don’t know quite how canonical it is, but it’s written by Greg so it will probably be pretty close.

http://ruleonemagazine.com/Iss11/LifeSedenya_3.php

She wasn’t just trapped -she was destroyed, consumed by the Devil. Her body was impaled in a spike in the Field of Waste (probably a place in the Underworld, the place for the bodies who have died the death beyond Death), but that was just her body. 

Yanafals brought her back through self-sacrifice. He was a hell of a heroquester indeed. 

[davecake]

Rashorana - Illumination is a moment of unity with *everything* and *everyone*. In particular, the Illuminated know that they are all teaching the same secret. It smashes what we would call the ego into nothing for a moment. 

To some extent, the Dark Side is to fall back into the demands of the ego, to try to reconstruct the ego and use your moment of insight as a source of cool powers to serve oneself. The Light Side is to see it is a source of universal mystic compassion, to remain as selfless as is possible, to retain that moment of unity with all as much as possible. But the ego never quite gets put back together right (hence the reputation for insanity), and no one but another Illuminate is truly equipped to judge the actions of another, and they can not even communicate to each other their full perspective, so it remains a mystery. 

The essential point here is - letting go of the idea that we are one being with an individual consciousness is part of Illumination. No one who has really experienced it can truly understand it. When the Goddess says she was also all these beings in the past, she means it, but it’s a mystical secret that is not necessarily meant in a literal, non-mystic sense. 

[David Scott]

On 07/04/2018 at 10:03 PM, Runeblogger said:

So the heroquest the Seven Mothers did to create the Red Goddess... did each of the Seven Mothers embody one of those ancient moon goddesses during the heroquest?

One of the major Heroquest patterns is going to the otherside and bringing someone back who has died. the most well known is of course the Lightbringers Quest to bring back Yelm. The quest has a variable number of participants with 7 being a common number bandied about, but there can be more or less (KoS).The simplest form of this would be the resurrection magics of Chalana Arroy, finding and returning a soul on the path of the dead.

The Seven Mothers ritual was a solution to the bad situation in Rinliddi and its oppressive occupation by the Shah Bisodakar and the Karmangs (from Greg's unpublished manuscript "The Red Goddess" 1994):

Quote

They hated the Shah, and they prayed to Him Beyond for help and guidance in overcoming the shadow of ignorance which the shah and his ghosts spread. They decided at last to perform the most destructive and offensive ritual which they could perform, and settled upon a quest story from Redface, the god of Alkoth.

They clearly wanted to bring help back and free the region. 

Quote

The seven questers spent years in the Gods World, but the whole ceremony took only hours of normal time.

It seem to me that in this version of bringing someone back, you need to take a sacrifice. That's certainly Redface's style.

Somewhere in the quest the participants likely mirrored some of the actions of those goddesses, but likely didn't do it intentionally. I also think that this version of the quest of return reassembles the soul of the departed rather than being whole. It was these parts that became the red goddess. I think the questers didn't realise what they were doing until well into the quest.

The whole realisation of her parts and the phases were only fully realised when she went on her goddess quest.

[Joerg]

36 minutes ago, davecake said:

Rashorana - Illumination is a moment of unity with *everything* and *everyone*. In particular, the Illuminated know that they are all teaching the same secret. It smashes what we would call the ego into nothing for a moment. 

To some extent, the Dark Side is to fall back into the demands of the ego, to try to reconstruct the ego and use your moment of insight as a source of cool powers to serve oneself. The Light Side is to see it is a source of universal mystic compassion, to remain as selfless as is possible, to retain that moment of unity with all as much as possible. But the ego never quite gets put back together right (hence the reputation for insanity), and no one but another Illuminate is truly equipped to judge the actions of another, and they can not even communicate to each other their full perspective, so it remains a mystery. 

I wonder whether the ego is annihilated or vastly inflated in this moment of unity. Given that Illumination through riddles is a brute force approach, you may be right about it being crushed and deflated. But then, in that moment the distinction between nothing and everything isn't exactly made.

The reputation for insanity need not be tied to mystical insights. The Mad Sultanate suggests that severe trauma through exposure to naked Chaos without gaining any insights will induce this state of mind, so a lot of the weirder illuminates may border on Mad Sultanate membership. Neither does the Madness spell induce any insights. Recreational use of the Befuddle spell is even less likely to produce insights...

Quote

The essential point here is - letting go of the idea that we are one being with an individual consciousness is part of Illumination. No one who has really experienced it can truly understand it. When the Goddess says she was also all these beings in the past, she means it, but it’s a mystical secret that is not necessarily meant in a literal, non-mystic sense. 

I do wonder about the absence of Arkat in this list, then (not even as Gbaji). Sheng is her shadow, so not included in her statement (yet), but Arkat and Nysalor really come as a pair, too. By excluding that shadow, this list doesn't really prove an all-encompassing unity, but a selection of precursors.

[davecake]

5 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I wonder whether the ego is annihilated or vastly inflated in this moment of unity.

Well, mystically both in that moment. But when you return to normal perception, you can perceive it as either. Mysticism absolutely allows for two seemingly opposed alternatives to both be true. 

7 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The reputation for insanity need not be tied to mystical insights. The Mad Sultanate suggests that severe trauma through exposure to naked Chaos without gaining any insights will induce this state of mind, so a lot of the weirder illuminates may border on Mad Sultanate membership. Neither does the Madness spell induce any insights. Recreational use of the Befuddle spell is even less likely to produce insights...

The madness of Illumination is different to the madness of mindless Chaos is different to the madness of the Madness spell. And to some extent it may be obvious. But when the difference is subtle, only an Illuminate can know for sure. And not even an Illuminate can know for sure the difference between Occlusion and Mystic Insight.

The Madness spell to some extent operates by opening the mind to Lunar insight it is unprepared for, but is it simply the Madness of Chaos or a glimpse of forbidden Illuminated insight that the mind is not yet ready to accept? Perhaps that can only  be determined in the moment. 

 

13 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I do wonder about the absence of Arkat in this list, then (not even as Gbaji). Sheng is her shadow, so not included in her statement (yet)

Sheng is the Shadow of the Red Emperor, I think, not the shadow of the Goddess. 

And yes, a list from Lunar sources will include only those that the Lunars acknowledge the truth of. This says more about the Lunar chroniclers than about the deep truths of Illumination, though, I think. 

 

 

[David Scott]

9 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Sheng is her shadow

Sheng is the red Emperors shadow.

Orlanth is her mythical opponent.

9 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Arkat and Nysalor really come as a pair, too

Arkat was Nysalor's shadow. Rashorana is a shape of Nysalor on the otherside. There is no Arkat on the otherside. Rashorana is Orlanth's mythic foe as part of the red goddess.

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

Sheng is the red Emperors shadow.

That's what the Guide says. On the other hand, AgartuSay was born in the moment that Teelo Estara entered the Surface World, very much like Arkat and Nysalor. To me that indicates that he is the shadow at least of Teelo Estara's office - which may have gone over to Takenegi. If so, Takenegi is only the third embodiment of that office, following Teelo Estara and Doskalos.

I wonder about the physical continuity between Doskalos (who died at Castle Blue) and Takenegi, too - the History of the First Wane tells us that the Red Emperor left his son Vakthan in charge of Carmania, after troubles in the first years of the Wane. Who exactly is the father of Vakthan? And how old was Doskalos in 1247? At best barely over 20, so how old could a son of his have been?

Nowadays we know about the Egi, a small group of individuals on the Red Moon jointly creating the mask of the Emperor, and Vakthan's father could have been any one of them besides Doskalos.

 

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

Orlanth is her mythical opponent.

But not her Shadow.

 

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

Arkat was Nysalor's shadow. Rashorana is a shape of Nysalor on the otherside.

Rashoran(a) is the overarching concept of which Nysalor - and by necessity Arkat - are expressions. Until their reunion on top of the tower in the City of Miracles, neither of them was complete. The way I understand it, each of them lived in a separate reality, perceiving the other as Gbaji. Only the being that returned from that battle was complete, and no longer separated by Gbaji, the need for different realities gone.

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

There is no Arkat on the otherside.

What is your source for that? The God Learners may have cut off ways leading to Arkat on the Other Side, but they were never able to erase him.

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

Rashorana is Orlanth's mythic foe as part of the red goddess.

The beef between Orlanth and Rufelza/Sedenya is rulership of the Middle Sky, aka Middle Air.

[The God Learner]

Ah yes, the good old days. You have to hand it to the Seven Mothers, they managed to sew together those cast-off dead old spirits into something remarkable. (How are things these days, Tekor? I've followed your subsequent research with great interest.) Not only that, they then somehow ripped up the old order and got the best seat at the table too, in spite of such things being impossible with "Time" and all that nonsense. I'm still curious exactly how they finessed it, and don't give me "Chaos wot did it" or "Lunar moxie and can-do spirits". 

Useful fictions those, "Time" and "God Time". Well, I suppose they had to come up with something. That was an embarrassing business too, all in all. But one for another day.

Edited April 10, 2018 by The God Learner

[David Scott]

42 minutes ago, Joerg said:

That's what the Guide says.

Exactly where does it say that Sheng is the Red Goddess's shadow. I couldn't see it, but I may have missed it. It does say (p298, 307 & 729):

Quote

The Third and Fourth Wanes saw the Red Emperor’s confrontation with his Other. In 3/20 (1375), a great nomad army led by Sheng Seleris conquered much of the Heartland. Sheng Seleris was the most successful foe of the Empire and held the land in thrall for 85 years.

Quote

Then came the Emperor’s Other: Sheng Seleris, Son of the Morning, a demigod who grew powerful enough to oppose the Red Goddess herself,

Quote

Our Goddess, innocent and whole, was drawn into conflict with Sheng Seleris by nature of kinship. When She shielded Her own son, She was struck by his celestial foe, who laid bare these great gashes upon Her head.

 

42 minutes ago, Joerg said:

On the other hand, AgartuSay was born in the moment that Teelo Estara entered the Surface World, very much like Arkat and Nysalor.

I think that the language here is important. You use the word "shadow", but in hindsight the word the Guide uses is much better - "Other". Also I think that the distinction between the Middle World and the God World is important. Teelo Estara left the Middle World and ascended in to the Middle Air. This was her moment of transition between the world. Her physical parts later returned to the world in the form of The Red Emperor and Great Sister. Sheng never left the world except in death. He is the Red Emperor's "other". This is the same as Arkat and Nysalor, they are each other's "other". The "other" is physical, the nemesis, the rival, the opposite. That's why shadow doesn't work well as a comparative term. If it does exist, it's light and dark.

42 minutes ago, Joerg said:

But not her Shadow.

I don't think gods have shadow or "Other". They are rooted into the concept of the runes. Once transcended, the mortal attachments are left behind. By rising into the Middle Air she enters into the land of Myth and Legend. Her opponents are other gods, she has to fight for her place in the Cosmos, her son and daughter deal with the Middle World. The relationship between the runes has already been defined. The only candidates for others are amongst the Power runes in their opposites.

42 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Rashoran(a) is the overarching concept of which Nysalor - and by necessity Arkat - are expressions.

Rashoran(a) is a Lunar deity, I see no mention of Arkat. I don't see the Lunars acknowledging this.

42 minutes ago, Joerg said:

What is your source for that? 

There is no Arkat on the otherside (p130, 131, 157):

Quote

The war against Gbaji had lasted 50 years; now Arkat retired to quiet lands in Ralios which he had admired in his younger days. There he cleared a simple farmstead and kept the area around it under his watchful eye for his other 50 years.

Quote

450 Ralios: Arkat settles in Ralios, lays groundwork for Autarchy, establishes the trolls in Guhan, etc

500 Ralios: Arkat apotheosized.

Quote

Arkat instituted formal cult procedures, created a government to rule after he was gone, then departed to the stasis of the Other Side, where he remains worshiped as the patron god of Heroquesting.

then nothing for 150 years when the God Learners break the cult for it's secrets (p157). Trolls seem to keep up his sorcerous magics (p721):

Quote

The mothers stayed with Arkat, and their descendants are called the Wizard Children because they still learn the arts from their mothers.

Then in the Hero Wars he returns seven times!

[Joerg]

33 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Exactly where does it say that Sheng is the Red Goddess's shadow. I couldn't see it, but I may have missed it. 

The date of his birth coincides with the rebirth of Teelo Estara, so that makes him and Teelo Estara the connected pair.

There was no Red Emperor at AgartuSay's birth.

 

Quote

I think that the language here is important. You use the word "shadow", but in hindsight the word the Guide uses is much better - "Other". Also I think that the distinction between the Middle World and the God World is important. Teelo Estara left the Middle World and ascended in to the Middle Air. This was her moment of transition between the world. Her physical parts later returned to the world in the form of The Red Emperor and Great Sister.

So basically, the pair of Red Emperor and Great Sister together are Sheng's Other.

Quote

I don't think gods have shadow or "Other".

I'll refer you to the Yelm myth of discovering the existence of his Other. I'll have to check where this was, might have been the Basko Black Sun story, might have been in GRoY, or might have been in the RQ3 full cult write-up.

Quote

They are rooted into the concept of the runes.

Now who is the God Learner here?

We have the story about Yelm's Other, which happens to be his shadow. Nysalor's "at the edge of light" also mentioned a shadow.

 

Quote

Once transcended, the mortal attachments are left behind.

Bad wording here. "Once apotheosized"?  Or "once transcended beyond the Ultimate", which quite evidently neither Sheng nor Rufelza are, yet.

Quote

By rising into the Middle Air she enters into the land of Myth and Legend. Her opponents are other gods, she has to fight for her place in the Cosmos, her son and daughter deal with the Middle World. The relationship between the runes has already been defined. The only candidates for others are amongst the Power runes in their opposites.

By the time she rises into the Middle Air, she has won her fight for a place in the Cosmos. That's what Castle Blue was all about.

And no, Owning a Rune is not Being a Rune. You may have an Other as a Great Deity. It doesn't have to be another Great Deity. Usually it is revealed to you in a struggle.

Quote

Rashoran(a) is a Lunar deity, I see no mention of Arkat. I don't see the Lunars acknowledging this.

Rashorana is a Lunar deity version of Rashoran. Rashoran is the original teacher of illumination, according to Cults of Terror, and known in Orlanthi circles.

 

Quote

There is no Arkat on the otherside (p130, 131, 157):

Apotheosized to the Other Side... IMO clear evidence that he is there. Out of contact, but that's different from dead and gone.

There was no Arkat on the Other Side prior to his apotheosis. Ever since, there is.

Or, in other words, in the timelessness of the Other Side there was an Arkat, but unreachable for denizens of the Middle World before his apotheosis.

Quote

then nothing for 150 years when the God Learners break the cult for it's secrets (p157). Trolls seem to keep up his sorcerous magics (p721):

Sorcerous magics usually don't rely on an Other Side presence other than the Grimoire node (the energy channel to these spells).

Quote

Then in the Hero Wars he returns seven times!

Five times, last I checked.

 

Quote

Sheng never left the world except in death. He is the Red Emperor's "other". This is the same as Arkat and Nysalor, they are each other's "other". The "other" is physical, the nemesis, the rival, the opposite. That's why shadow doesn't work well as a comparative term. If it does exist, it's light and dark.

Yeah, I'll go for other, too. Still the fact remains that AgartuSay was triggered by Teelo Estara. That she may have passed this on to her physical representations in the Middle World is something else, so I don't mean to contradict the status quo which (semi-correctly) mentions the Red Emperor only.

 

Edited April 10, 2018 by Joerg

[David Scott]

18 minutes ago, Joerg said:

So basically, the pair of Red Emperor and Great Sister together are Sheng's Other.

No, just the Red Emperor. There is no mention of Great Sister’s involvement.

18 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Still the fact remains that AgartuSay was triggered by Teelo Estara. That she may have passed this on to her physical representations in the Middle World is something else, so I don't mean to contradict the status quo which (semi-correctly) mentions the Red Emperor only

Being born at the same time on the same day doesn’t imply a trigger. Their births are not cause and effect. Coincidence is a better description, kismet is better, Jung’s synchronicity is the best.

18 minutes ago, Joerg said:

That she may have passed this on to her physical representations in the Middle World is something else,

 

You might remember that Greg often called the Red Emperor, the Red Goddess’s Penis. It would be cool if the goddess’s penis already existed in the middle world after the seven mothers quest in a ritual form. Wilder speculation would suggest that it would be the synchronous object.

29 minutes ago, Joerg said:

so I don't mean to contradict the status quo which (semi-correctly) mentions the Red Emperor only.

In your opinion. 

[The God Learner]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Now who is the God Learner here?

(Cough)

[David Scott]

59 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I'll refer you to the Yelm myth of discovering the existence of his Other. I'll have to check where this was, might have been the Basko Black Sun story, might have been in GRoY, or might have been in the RQ3 full cult write-up.

I’m not saying that it doesn’t exist in texts, just in my opinion I don’t think they have it as it makes the language confusing.

Yelm’s Other in GRoY are those things that didn’t obey him, that he subsequently names and then become not the Other. Up to Rebellious Teminous who then became the Other causing Yelm to break apart.

Troll Gods does say that the black sun is Yelm spiritual shadow, his blindspot that he can never never see. I see is that as a light versus darkness thing.  Not his actual shadow something that exists because he does. It might be his other but it doesn’t impact on Yelm at all.

Nothing in the WW write up.

We are back to the old problem that language is not enough to talk about mythology. For when we do so we reduce its meaning  

[davecake]

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

There is no Arkat on the otherside (p130, 131, 157):

All three of those page references seem to imply Arkat has a presence on the otherside, as a god who is actively worshipped. Huh?