Shields

[M Helsdon]

Examining Dan Barker's excellent illustration of Jannisor, I've attempted to recreate his shield Brighteye. However, I cannot determine whether the shield has eight or nine points...

First of a sequence of Gloranthan shield designs.

The versions to left and right are covered with leather; the middle shield has a thin layer of metal with grooves to deflect strikes with spear or sword.

Edited April 15, 2018 by M Helsdon

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

I've attempted to recreate his shield Brighteye.

You need the actual eye though.  It should be a nice radiant eye that can open to blind the foes.  (Or maybe that's your next step?)

3 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

I cannot determine whether the shield has eight or nine points...

I think it might be 10, which would be the right mythological significance.  Check out the vase painting on Guide p.338.

[M Helsdon]

9 hours ago, jajagappa said:

You need the actual eye though.  It should be a nice radiant eye that can open to blind the foes.  (Or maybe that's your next step?)

I think it might be 10, which would be the right mythological significance.  Check out the vase painting on Guide p.338.

Hmm, you may be correct. However, the illustration on page 336 shows no eye, just a shield boss. Back to the drawing board.

[M Helsdon]

Latest shields... Anyone familiar with Bronze/Iron Age shields may recognize the origin of a few...

In Glorantha: a hoplite shield from one of the Stonewall Regiments; a phalangite shield from one of the Sun Dome temples; two 'Star Captain' shields (which is closer to the legendary Brighteye is open to debate); three ornate Barbarian Belt shields (the last displaying a ram's head). All drawn more-or-less to scale.

Edited April 16, 2018 by M Helsdon

[jajagappa]

14 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

However, the illustration on page 336 shows no eye, just a shield boss.

True, but you wouldn't want Brighteye blinding everyone it comes in contact with.  This is a solar spirit after all. ;-)

 

[Jon Hunter]

15 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

In Glorantha: a hoplite shield from one of the Stonewall Regiments; a phalangite shield from one of the Sun Dome temples; 

I never realised there was such a notable size difference between the hoplite and phalangite shields, is this consistent are these just to examples?

[M Helsdon]

1 hour ago, Jon Hunter said:

I never realised there was such a notable size difference between the hoplite and phalangite shields, is this consistent are these just to examples?

Hoplite and phalangite phalanxes fought in different ways; hoplites used a one-handed spear and so stood front-on; phalangites used a two-handed spear and so stood in a side-ways stance with their left shoulder facing towards the front of the phalanx, their shields were much smaller than those of a hoplite, with about two thirds the diameter. Hoplite shields were roughly three feet in diameter; phalangite shields roughly two feet in diameter. Hoplite shields were held using a hand grip and a forearm cylinder; phalangites had no arm free to hold a shield, and so their shield was suspended from a strap.

The weapon used dictated the stance of its user, and the frontage they occupied in the battle-line. The hoplite shield was also much heavier, but given the weight of a phalangite's pike, they carried an equivalent weight of arms and armor.

This is supported by archaeological finds.

In Glorantha, it means that Solar and Lunar phalanxes fight in a different way to Sun Dome phalanxes.

[M Helsdon]

21 hours ago, jajagappa said:

True, but you wouldn't want Brighteye blinding everyone it comes in contact with.  This is a solar spirit after all. ;-)

These probably depict replica shields carried by members of Jannisor's Hero Cult, when no Lunars are around...?

Lunar parade shield...

Edited April 17, 2018 by M Helsdon

[jajagappa]

9 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

These probably depict replica shields carried by members of Jannisor's Hero Cult, when no Lunars are around...?

Certainly!  Of course, it doesn't matter if the Lunars are around or not - he's at least admired by them as a worthy foe, and in some places considered a hero too, particularly Vanch and parts of Kostaddi (Binder of Chaos if nothing else), and there's likely even statues of him in Lunar cities!  [Think of him on the order of Hannibal to the Romans.]

[davecake]

On 16/04/2018 at 3:26 PM, M Helsdon said:

Hmm, you may be correct. However, the illustration on page 336 shows no eye, just a shield boss.

Perhaps the shield boss opens like the Eye of Agamotto. 

[M Helsdon]

On ‎4‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 7:36 PM, davecake said:

Perhaps the shield boss opens like the Eye of Agamotto. 

Zap!!!

 

[jajagappa]

6 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Zap!!!

Yep, I think you've captured it!  

[M Helsdon]

[jajagappa]

The one thing that comes to mind with the star shields is under attack by axes or maces, those points could be readily bent back into dangerous forms to the wielder.  Nothing quite like driving someone's nice point edged shield up into their neck.  You'd need some extra strong enchantments on those to keep the form.

[Joerg]

7 hours ago, jajagappa said:

The one thing that comes to mind with the star shields is under attack by axes or maces, those points could be readily bent back into dangerous forms to the wielder.  Nothing quite like driving someone's nice point edged shield up into their neck.  You'd need some extra strong enchantments on those to keep the form.

Taking a lance impact off center will turn those spikes against the wielder, too. Or his mount, if mounted.

Then there is the danger of entanglement with loose cloth or ropes.

You also guide slashing blades to hack into the center. Depending on the reinforcement of the outer rim, this might act as a sword catcher, but then soft-rimmed Viking shields are said to have offered that feature, too.

On the other hand, you have the protection of a holy symbol here. Melee use may be a secondary consideration, and possibly discouraged.

Or there might be an invisible area of protection between those points, making it just another round or obtuse-angled  polygonal shield in combat applications.

[M Helsdon]

8 hours ago, jajagappa said:

The one thing that comes to mind with the star shields is under attack by axes or maces, those points could be readily bent back into dangerous forms to the wielder.  Nothing quite like driving someone's nice point edged shield up into their neck.  You'd need some extra strong enchantments on those to keep the form.

True. I don't see them as being very practical; they are cultic  paraphernalia.

They are inspired by Dan Barker's two pieces of art, reprinted in the Guide. All the others are based on real Bronze or early Iron Age shields (even the lion head, which is derived from one portrayed on a Carthaginian/Phoenician ring seal - I did alter the shape).

Edited April 24, 2018 by M Helsdon

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

True. I don't see them as being very practical; they are cultic  paraphernalia.

They are inspired by Dan Barker's two pieces of art, reprinted in the Guide.

When set in the context of the other shields, somehow it struck me how dangerous they could be.  But this is Glorantha, so clearly there must be advantages (or aspects that counter the danger).  They probably need to be made of enchanted tin or gold - the metals of the sky - and the enchantments provide strengthening to keep the points hard and straight.  Binding a star daimon into is also likely as their radiance will drive back trolls bearing maces.  The pointed edges may well act as swordbreakers, which would be their advantage vs. storm barbarians.

[Joerg]

If such a shield could be used Captain America style as a heroic feat, it would be quite the terror weapon. Perhaps better reserved for a One Unique Thing.

So, are there cross-shaped shields for Humakti, or do they make do with cross designs on the surface of their shields? Would rune-shaped shields be able to project the power of that rune? Light or fire rune shields are quite common, and have been imbued with light magic in the canon. There might be room for disorder-shaped shields in shield push matches, although that bears a risk of backfiring.

 

[M Helsdon]

7 hours ago, jajagappa said:

When set in the context of the other shields, somehow it struck me how dangerous they could be. 

Yes, which is why there have never been any serious terrestrial shields of that form.

7 hours ago, jajagappa said:

But this is Glorantha, so clearly there must be advantages (or aspects that counter the danger).  They probably need to be made of enchanted tin or gold - the metals of the sky - and the enchantments provide strengthening to keep the points hard and straight.  Binding a star daimon into is also likely as their radiance will drive back trolls bearing maces.  The pointed edges may well act as swordbreakers, which would be their advantage vs. storm barbarians.

Perhaps. I don't know who or what Brighteye was.

Given the date of Dan Barker's illustrations, I suspect he received an outline from Greg, so I am not going to argue with two canonical illustrations, however 'strange' the shield design is. In fact, the only fantasy world that has weirder shields is Tekumel, judging from the professor's illustrations in the Armies of Tekumel booklets.

[M Helsdon]

A related page...

 

Edited April 24, 2018 by M Helsdon

[Jenx]

This is just me going deep into YGWV territory, so take it as nothing more than simply my own views on the subject, but I personally don't think terrestrial warfare should be used as much when thinking about Gloranthan warfare, and I most definitely do not thing distinctions between "practical" and "ceremonial" weapons and armour even exist in the setting. As far as I'm concerned, all weapons are ceremonial. Every single weapon has very strong ties to either a specific deity or, at a minimum, a specific rune, to the point where, for example, in HQ: Glorantha "fighting with a sword" is given as an ability Orlanth initiates can use their magic for.

All weapons and armour in Glorantha are ultimately ritual tools used to either emulate a god or a specific ritual structure (for example specific regiments fighting in a specific arrangements using very specific arms because that is simply how they are capable of fighting), and because of that all arms in Glorantha are ultimately ritual tools, which means they can be as impractical or absurd-looking from a "real life" point of view without that diminishing their capabilities in any way. Can that spiky ,star-shaped shield block attacks from axes? Of course! It's a shield, so a shield protects you.
 

[M Helsdon]

5 minutes ago, Jenx said:

This is just me going deep into YGWV territory, so take it as nothing more than simply my own views on the subject, but I personally don't think terrestrial warfare should be used as much when thinking about Gloranthan warfare, and I most definitely do not thing distinctions between "practical" and "ceremonial" weapons and armour even exist in the setting. As far as I'm concerned, all weapons are ceremonial. Every single weapon has very strong ties to either a specific deity or, at a minimum, a specific rune, to the point where, for example, in HQ: Glorantha "fighting with a sword" is given as an ability Orlanth initiates can use their magic for.

All weapons and armour in Glorantha are ultimately ritual tools used to either emulate a god or a specific ritual structure (for example specific regiments fighting in a specific arrangements using very specific arms because that is simply how they are capable of fighting), and because of that all arms in Glorantha are ultimately ritual tools, which means they can be as impractical or absurd-looking from a "real life" point of view without that diminishing their capabilities in any way. Can that spiky ,star-shaped shield block attacks from axes? Of course! It's a shield, so a shield protects you.
 

The Guide says:

Gloranthan warfare is superficially similar to that of our world. Formations of foot or horse fight under the leadership of a general, king, priest, magician, or warlord against their enemies. Ambushes, skirmishes, field battles, and sieges are used to break an enemy’s will to resist, just as in the wars of our own world.

And:

As a result, Gloranthan armies often use tactics or strategies that would make no sense in our world but may be fundamental to using their army’s magic to its best effect. Armies are often assembled according to sacred formulae and combatants are often chosen to best match ancient myths. Certain individuals or units may lack any direct military value, but must be present for other regiments to use their own best magic.

So I would tend to agree with you; there are hoplites and horse-archers, but each derive some of their capability from their deities and the associated traditions.

However, if a spiky star shield isn't magical, then it's a liability. If it's used by a Star Captain cult, or by members of Jannisor's Hero Cult then it probably will have magical properties.

[Jenx]

My argument here is that there is no such thing as "isn't magical". Due to the nature of Gloranthan reality being an endless re-iteration of the events of the Gods War, with mortals being able to add new things to the mix, but definitely not in ways that change the overall situation (though Argrath does fix that at the end of the Hero Wars),  my argument is that all actions of mortals are, ultimately, a form of ritual.

You say that it will have magical properties if it's used by a Star Captains worshiper or a Jannnisor worshiper. My argument here is that nobody would even use a shield like that to begin with if they weren't. The same way I don't see an Orlanthi warrior fighting with a square shield, not unless he or she has a strong connection to the Earth.

That quote from the Guide basically sums it up quite well too. "Superficially", it says. Meaning that while a "hoplite" in Glorantha might look like a hoplite from our own world, the way that person actually fights might be completely unrelated to our own history, and the reasons for their choice of gear probably goes in entirely different directions than pure practicality. (Although one could argue that wearing the appropriate armour, shield and weapon that will allow you to perform your combat magic is a form of practicality, just a different one from what a warrior from our world might have in mind)

[M Helsdon]

35 minutes ago, Jenx said:

You say that it will have magical properties if it's used by a Star Captains worshiper or a Jannnisor worshiper. My argument here is that nobody would even use a shield like that to begin with if they weren't. The same way I don't see an Orlanthi warrior fighting with a square shield, not unless he or she has a strong connection to the Earth.

Um, no, I'm saying it could have magical properties if used by a Star/Jannisor cult - though I have no idea what they might be. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be much information around about Jannisor and Brighteye (and I have searched).

The term Orlanthi covers an awful lot of cults, including, by marriage and other means, many Earth cults.

35 minutes ago, Jenx said:

That quote from the Guide basically sums it up quite well too. "Superficially", it says. Meaning that while a "hoplite" in Glorantha might look like a hoplite from our own world, the way that person actually fights might be completely unrelated to our own history, and the reasons for their choice of gear probably goes in entirely different directions than pure practicality. (Although one could argue that wearing the appropriate armour, shield and weapon that will allow you to perform your combat magic is a form of practicality, just a different one from what a warrior from our world might have in mind)

Judging from Sun County, and the updated material in Pavis:GtA, and other sources, hoplites and phalangites fight in phalanxes (though there's a never-ending debate in our world regarding exactly how phalanx combat worked). I personally suspect that the Stonewall Regiments fight in a recognizable phalanx (it's in their regimental names), and their magic strengthens and requires that they fight in that way. I also suspect that most regiments in Glorantha (excluding the deeply magical ones like those derived from the Lunar College of Magic or Argrath's magical regiments) fight in ways that can be described using terrestrial terminology, but augmented by their own particular magics.

Edited April 24, 2018 by M Helsdon

[Jenx]

Sorry, I should have written that better - By Orlanthi I mean "An initiate of Orlanth", not Orlanthi when used as broader describer for several cultures.