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What is is about Stormbringer?

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On 5/13/2018 at 11:29 AM, Jakob said:

No EDO - creatures and non-humans are supposed to be original and often bizarre.

That took me a while. EDO. Elves Dwarves Orks?

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What is there not to love about a Sword & Sorcery-Setting sporting depraved slave-holding drug-abusing √ľber-humanoids who lost their empire, a world at the very brink of doom and damnation and heroes summoning demons and binding them into wepons and armor to lay waste to their enmies?

Hark! I think I hear the lamentation of someone's better half! ūüėą

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On 5/13/2018 at 12:29 PM, Jakob said:

Midgard (the German setting) borrows a lot of Moorcockian element, but has a totally different tonality as a setting

Those Sea Master summoner lords did inherit from Moorcockian elements, but IMO just as much from Palladium rpg with its magician classes which slowly entered the Midgard rpg system for the third and subsequent editions. I had gone on to RQ by that time, but friends from my early days as convention organizers who cooperated on my Midgard tournament scenarios continued to play that system and had me as guest player ever now and then, so I have some peripheral knowledge of that.

Yes, the tonality of the "now" of that setting is quite different. However, if you took that setting at the Seemeister period, with demon races "(that happen to have similar elfin features as do the Melniboneans) the two settings aren't that far apart.

Of course, you have a sub-layer of Kulluhu, the tentacle-headed elder deity sleeping below the waves. (Now why does this sound familiar?)

Overall, Midgard does come across as a classical EDO setting, much like Midkemia (which has no orcs, but goblins). The setting does have quite a bit of unique points to make it non-vanilla, drawing on the inheritance of the ancestral setting of Magira.

Quote

- that's why I'd actually prefer something that doesn't borrow too much Moorcock-mythology elements, but does it's own thing, but with a stormbringer flair. The whole order/chaos thing has been done to death in many contexts.ÔĽŅ

 

5 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

It might be because Moorcock borrowed a lot of Germanic elements for Elric. Even the name, Elric,  is Germanic in origin. 

Not so many Germanic elements, really, apart from a mildly Anglo-Saxon sounding name for the title character. His use of Celtic elements around Corum is a lot stronger.

No, Midgard as a setting and rpg is a purely German phenomenon, one which Jakob as a fellow German roleplayer will understand well. First published before the big German rpg boom of 1984-89, it inherited from the magic system of Empire of the Petal Throne while maintaining a class system which determined skill advancement cost and eligibility, and has an elegant system of non-raisable hit points and raisable activity points which are spent as sort of fatigue/stun damage or for magic. Level is raised through acquisition or increase of skills. There still is a sworn Midgard community about as tenacious as the Glorantha tribe, and I learned that they get to use Burg Stahleck in Bacharach regularly for one of their conventions the weekend before Eternal Con takes over at Whitsun.

My main reason for dropping this system was the absence of experience points in RQ and an unfortunate loss of my campaign notes on one of those conventions I organized.

2 hours ago, Der Rote Baron said:

What is there not to love about a Sword & Sorcery-Setting sporting depraved slave-holding drug-abusing √ľber-humanoids who lost their empire, a world at the very brink of doom and damnation and heroes summoning demons and binding them into weapons and armor to lay waste to their enemies?

I don't recall any drug abuse in Melnibone, but certainly there was sophisticated drug-use. Drug administration is a privilege of the upper echelons of that decadent culture, much as it is in Glorantha's Fonrit. Drug trading and production was an important imperialist activity, practiced on a scale comparable to modern illegitimate drug trade by the British Empire exporting to China alone. Not to mention alcohol deliveries to corrupt native cultures within the empire...

For some unscrutable reason, "visionary" drugs remain illegalized while prescription drug abuse including opioids and pyschopharmaca are seen as a problem, but not one to include in the war on drugs. I really wonder why there is no "everything goes" kind of olympic games where the military tests their booster drugs on volunteer athletes in the open, well documented. Possibly with other augmentation technologies, too.

In a fantasy setting with rather different ethics and morality (and negotiable value on human lives and dignity) I see no reason at all to assume a "war on drugs" mindset. Yes, this is fascism and racism/exceptionalism turned up to eleven and even higher, like playing Gloranthan ogres. I think it is quite healthy to have a game that lets you fall into the trap of perceived necessity and disregard of non-tribal life, to fall into the mindset that led to the failings that were justly prosecuted in the Nuremberg trials. It is healthy to acknowledge these demons in your potential, and it helps to get the perspective on those characters who ordered entire villages of vastly inferior military potential massacred for new land, or to establish a colonial nightmare regime with arbitrary punishments for minor failings and utter ruthlessness in the face of real resistance, as in the Belgian Kongo, the Herero uprising, or the Indian wars outside of the then United States. It could be healthy to experience how evil can lie in perceiving yourself and your objectively reprehensile actions as being the "good guys" in a conflict, as long as you include an element of reflection or moments of jarring recognition what your characters just did. There is of course always the danger that some people don't get the complete message, but that's no different from political reality these days.

 

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8 minutes ago, Joerg said:

In a fantasy setting with rather different ethics and morality (and negotiable value on human lives and dignity) I see no reason at all to assume a "war on drugs" mindset. Yes, this is fascism and racism/exceptionalism turned up to eleven and even higher, like playing Gloranthan ogres. I think it is quite healthy to have a game that lets you fall into the trap of perceived necessity and disregard of non-tribal life, to fall into the mindset that led to the failings that were justly prosecuted in the Nuremberg trials. It is healthy to acknowledge these demons in your potential, and it helps to get the perspective on those characters who ordered entire villages of vastly inferior military potential massacred for new land, or to establish a colonial nightmare regime with arbitrary punishments for minor failings and utter ruthlessness in the face of real resistance, as in the Belgian Kongo, the Herero uprising, or the Indian wars outside of the then United States. It could be healthy to experience how evil can lie in perceiving yourself and your objectively reprehensile actions as being the "good guys" in a conflict, as long as you include an element of reflection or moments of jarring recognition what your characters just did. There is of course always the danger that some people don't get the complete message, but that's no different from political reality these days.

You completely missed the meaning in the bit that you quoted. "What's not to like?" is another way of saying, "Of course we like it!"

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6 minutes ago, Nick J. said:

You completely missed the meaning in the bit that you quoted. "What's not to like?" is another way of saying, "Of course we like it!"

Yes, we do like playing the exceptionalist masters, the destiny-born fantasy heroes or the caped crusaders of the superhero genre. We like to think that our destiny matters more than the life of those hard-working factory orcs providing the Dark Lord with manpower, arms and ammo. We are happy to demonize the opposition when slaughtering them for our perceived greater good (which usually only is good for our own - possibly extended - tribe). We like to claim the underdog role even when dominating the opposition in all but numbers, and we like to enforce our own faction's ethics on all others. We want that teenage wet dream.

All I suggest is to do this consequently, granting the wet dream, and then realize how little different this is from the Confederate slave holder mindset, from the ethnocidal politics of Charlemagne (in whose name a renowned peace award is given out), or from the imperialist mentality even to other (as racist) imperialists, like the invention of concentration camps and their application to the Boers. Wet dream power fantasies sell. Exposing the inherent corruption might be less of a selling point, but should be addressed when published by people upholding a decent morality in real life. (Which might explain why plenty of Hollywood productions have failed to do so in the wake of the #metoo exposure.)

At least that's the standard I would like to hold myself up against when contemplating designing such settings. YMMV.

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16 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Yes, we do like playing the exceptionalist masters, the destiny-born fantasy heroes or the caped crusaders of the superhero genre. We like to think that our destiny matters more than the life of those hard-working factory orcs providing the Dark Lord with manpower, arms and ammo. We are happy to demonize the opposition when slaughtering them for our perceived greater good (which usually only is good for our own - possibly extended - tribe). We like to claim the underdog role even when dominating the opposition in all but numbers, and we like to enforce our own faction's ethics on all others. We want that teenage wet dream.

All I suggest is to do this consequently, granting the wet dream, and then realize how little different this is from the Confederate slave holder mindset, from the ethnocidal politics of Charlemagne (in whose name a renowned peace award is given out), or from the imperialist mentality even to other (as racist) imperialists, like the invention of concentration camps and their application to the Boers. Wet dream power fantasies sell. Exposing the inherent corruption might be less of a selling point, but should be addressed when published by people upholding a decent morality in real life. (Which might explain why plenty of Hollywood productions have failed to do so in the wake of the #metoo exposure.)

At least that's the standard I would like to hold myself up against when contemplating designing such settings. YMMV.

Well I guess we, unwashed plebes will have to just make do with our silly unsophisticated elf-games and power-fantasies.

Edited by Nick J.
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7 hours ago, Joerg said:

 

All I suggest is to do this consequently, granting the wet dream, and then realize how little different this is from the Confederate slave holder mindset, from the ethnocidal politics of Charlemagne (in whose name a renowned peace award is given out), or from the imperialist mentality even to other (as racist) imperialists, like the invention of concentration camps and their application to the Boers. Wet dream power fantasies sell.

I get what you mean with regards to Moorcock (even though I think you're getting carried away a little ...). That's what I meant earlier when I mentioned that Moorcock doesn't revel in the violence perpetrated by his heroes, and he doesn't depict it as necessary, either. Elric's actions are simply an outcome of him having grown up as the member of the ruling class of an empire. Even though he's pretty philosophical-minded and actually thinks about ethical choices, he has never developed an ability for true compassion and largely plays his role as harbinger of the apocalypse, killing everything and everyone he loves on the way. He might look cool, but in the end, he is mainly a tragic character, as tragic as the world he lives in.

I think reading the first von Bek novel, which is set in the Thirty Years War, gave me a clearer grasp of what I feel Moorcock is trying to accomplish with his cynical anti-heroes. They're all "heroes" doing atrocious thing under atrocious circumstances; this is not justified in any way, it's not serving any greater good. It's just how heroism works. If there's one thing exceptional about these heroes, it's the fact that they tend to reflect to a certain degree on their actions, without being able to actually change anything meaningful about them.

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12 hours ago, Al. said:

That took me a while. EDO. Elves Dwarves Orks?

Yes, that's it!

Sorry, I've seen that abbreviation so often in the last few years, I just use it without thinking.

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22 hours ago, Nick J. said:

Well I guess we, unwashed plebes will have to just make do with our silly unsophisticated elf-games and power-fantasies.

Where did I bash elf dwarf orc games? When a setting does provide an intrinsic evil, for this setting the morals provide exoneration performing evil on that evil. But that never was the point of Stormbringer. The Eternal Champions settings aren't a conflict between good and evil, they are between sometimes personalized, sometimes impersonal principles of order and chaos, and of the niche of human existence in between. Plenty of elf-like critters, but hardly any dwarves or orcs.

I was referring to placing the default cultures of a setting as abusive and dehumanizing to anyone outside of their immediate tribe, and then offering the thrill of wet-dream powers based on that behavior, and only then providing realizations what exactly that would mean in another context. Power fantasies based on actions and conditions that the personal ethics of the players hopefully recognize as detestable.

I have enjoyed many a level of Nethack, tinning all those orcs etc. to prevent them from spoiling, while feeding on the rest of the fresh corpses directly. Polymorphing all those @ and K corpse tins into other forms of % to avoid being accused of cannibalism. You don't get much more murder hobo than that.

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On 5/14/2018 at 3:31 PM, Joerg said:

In a fantasy setting with rather different ethics and morality (and negotiable value on human lives and dignity) I see no reason at all to assume a "war on drugs" mindset. Yes, this is fascism and racism/exceptionalism turned up to eleven and even higher, like playing Gloranthan ogres. I think it is quite healthy to have a game that lets you fall into the trap of perceived necessity and disregard of non-tribal life, to fall into the mindset that led to the failings that were justly prosecuted in the Nuremberg trials.

 

Let me suggest Martin van Creveld's book Hitler in Hell to you.  It can make for some slow reading at times and appears to be a bit of an apologetic, but it is more of a commentary on modern politics in a round about way.  It is actually quite fascinating.   I'll let it go at that since this is way OT.

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Holy Cow, Batman! I only said that I LIKE THE SETTING!  And the system (Elric! more than Stormbringer) is also not half bad (hope that is not misunderstood again).

But please ya'll: Calm down. Sturmbringer and Melniboneèan society has as much to do with British Imperialism, the War on Drugs and Nazi ideology as Uncle Scrooge has with capitalism, D&D dungeon adventures with real world spelunking and Queen (the band) with monarchy.

And just to make sure that I leave no misunderstanding whatsoever: I am NOT really a baron! My hair is red though ...ūüėé

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5 hours ago, Der Rote Baron said:

Sturmbringer and Melniboneèan society has as much to do with British Imperialism, the War on Drugs and Nazi ideology as Uncle Scrooge has with capitalism, D&D dungeon adventures with real world spelunking and Queen (the band) with monarchy.

While you're entitled to your opinion, I'm pretty sure that Moorcock would disagree. It's hard to believe that a person with such strong political views as him, who also happens to be obviously obsessed with English history, would write a story about an decadent (former) island empire with at least a passing thought about British imperialism. Probably, it was more than just a passing thought - just have a look at Moorcocks quite blatant take on the ecological and social evils of capitalism in "The Revenge of the Rose", or his use of the history of the Second World War in "The Eternal Champion" and "The Dream-Thiefs Daughter".

Elric may be one of Moorcocks more subtly political works, but it is certainly a political work, at the very least by intention. The beauty of it is that you can also just read it as a haunting and unique work of Sword&Sorcery and still enjoy it tremendously. That is, of course, what the appeal of Stormbringer the RPG is mostly founded on (since mixing politics and RPGs often doesn't work out that well ...).

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On 5/16/2018 at 5:28 PM, Der Rote Baron said:

... Sturmbringer and Melniboneèan society has as much to do with British Imperialism, the War on Drugs and Nazi ideology as Uncle Scrooge has with capitalism...

In that both Moorcock and Dickens were deliberately and consciously engaging in the very British tradition of mocking  / criticizing the political, cultural and economic status quo of their country at the time they were writing, very much so. And in Moorcock's case, when people missed that aspect / layer in the Elric Saga, he doubled down on the parody in the Hakmoon books, where the pastiche of the British Empire became practical transparent. The "Roaring God Aral Vilsn"?

The Eternal Champion stories, especially the early ones, are absolutely enjoyable sword and sorcery yarns, inspired in part by the young Moorcock's love of early Howard, Burroughs and Leiber... they are ALSO the works of a child of the London Blitz, and a radical and political thinker with a deep distrust of the self satisfied, self serving and self manufactured mythologies of the British Establishment; and an equally well honed awareness of the delusions and malfeasance of large parts of the counter culture in Britain in the 1960's and 70's.

Cheers,

Nick

Edited by NickMiddleton
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If you want to read a good career retrospective of Michael Moorcock that highlights how his political views have influenced his writing read this interview in the New Statesmen from 2015:

Since it has a sensationalist title, I would ask that people read the article in full before shooting off replies ;)

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22 hours ago, Newt said:

If you want to read a good career retrospective of Michael Moorcock that highlights how his political views have influenced his writing read this interview in the New Statesmen from 2015:

Since it has a sensationalist title, I would ask that people read the article in full before shooting off replies ;)

Thanks, very interesting: while I don't agree with his assessment of Tolkien (his opinion seems based on a very superficial or limited reading, but hard to tell from a single quote), I do appreciate his retrospective. I will just remark that I find it ironic that the author best known for the Law - Balance - Chaos struggle and their reliance on each other can't see we don't simply live in a Phillip K. Dick world, but also a Clark world. But not Dick Clark.

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32 minutes ago, Rhialto the Marvellous said:

while I don't agree with his assessment of Tolkien (his opinion seems based on a very superficial or limited reading, but hard to tell from a single quote)=

I doubt it. 

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9 minutes ago, Rhialto the Marvellous said:

Thanks, very interesting: while I don't agree with his assessment of Tolkien (his opinion seems based on a very superficial or limited reading, but hard to tell from a single quote),

IIRC some time in the eighties Moorcock also released an essay or even a book about writing fantasy, IIRC, so I think that Moorcock had read at least the Lord of the Ring including the appendices quite closely.

If you replace "fascist" by "feudalist", there is nothing crypto about the position of Tolkien with regard to his romantically idealized past.

Tolkien's world is anti-industrialist (think of his treatment of the war factories of Isengard) and about a layered society, with Sam Gamgee personifying the loyal common soldier/servant to the nobility officer. Like most fantasy, the focus is on a lost past rather than looking forward. Aragorn's kingship has long been destined.

9 minutes ago, Rhialto the Marvellous said:

I do appreciate his retrospective. I will just remark that I find it ironic that the author best known for the Law - Balance - Chaos struggle and their reliance on each other can't see we don't simply live in a Phillip K. Dick world, but also a Clark world. But not Dick Clark.

I guess that comes from his story-teller focus on SF. One can clearly say that Clarke created the concept of satellite communication and laid the groundwork for one of the pillars of the modern communication network.

Moorcock's generally dystopian settings do have rather backward-oriented mindset, too - decadent Melnibone, then the end of that universe, although there was also the heroic story of carving out the hinterland of the southern continent from unshaped Chaos by Aubec of Malador, and the necessity to end the world of Melnibone and the young kingdoms to make way for a world of Balance. (Which doesn't really make sense in a multiverse...)

Moorcock's one-dimensional axis of Law vs. Chaos probably is too much of a simplification, much like "left" vs. "right" in the political debate.

 

From a story-teller point of view, a flawless utopia has no potential. A struggling utopia beset by interior destabilization and exterior threats is probably the best view of a world we can get, or alternatively a struggle between several not quite mutually compatible utopias. Otherwise a selective utopia for a few chosen few means a dystopia for most others.

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4 hours ago, Joerg said:

(snip)

Moorcock's one-dimensional axis of Law vs. Chaos probably is too much of a simplification, much like "left" vs. "right" in the political debate.

(snip)

Which fits right in with the politics and/or philosophical leanings on display.  Anti-establishment, counterculture, postmodernism, existentialism, etc. all think in purely simplistic terms which make up for false worldviews.  They tend to be socialistic in nature and consider fascism to be the adversary, especially the Nazi brand.  What keeps getting obscured in the "common sense" claims of National Socialism being "right wing" and International Socialism (a.k.a. Communism) being "left wing" are that they are both socialist.  About the only difference between Red Fascism and Black Fascism is that Red Fascism definitely appears to be the more efficient in slaughtering its citizens and "undesirables".

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I walked into the Brigade Shop and there on the shelf was bright shiny red box with Strombringer in a kick ass font and one bad ass looking Elric holding the Black Blade aloft.

It had all the dark sex appeal of a Nazi Flag just screaming "Touch me, I dare you."  Like a Panzer amongst a flock of Shermans it dominated the field before me.

Instantly I had to have it.  I had read Elric, Hawkmoon and Corum and even if I hadn't the ominous presence of the magnificent 1st Edition boxed set had sealed the deal.  There was no option except to bring this bad boy home and stun parents and siblings alike.  It had that presence.  Crooning with delight I forked over the required greenbacks, all my allowance had provided over the past several weeks,  into the outstretched palms of the balding merchant of delight and sped home with this portal to fantasy cashed safely upon my ten speed.

Once we played the system we were shocked at the PC death toll and overwhelming brutality of sorcery and combat alike.  We loved it!

*Sorcery was something to be feared and which felt like the dread one should have when facing something otherworldly and beyond mortal ken.

*A sword through your guts made for a very, very bad day.

*Resurrection was possible as long as you did not mind being a slave rowing some foul chaos war galley. 

This was not our grandma's RPG!

Balance you cry?  That be for wusses me lads!  One player rolled up a smokin Sorcerer from Pan Tang and played it to the hilt.  He inflicted more PC death than anything else in any of my games...ever.  Not that this was a good thing in itself, but it was unique.  Once he bound a water elemental into his 'friends' canteen which drowned him after washing down breakfast. This simply because he decided his friend could possibly become a threat down the line.  Being a sadistic megalomanic he was fine with PC underlings but anyone who was advancing too much for his liking was soon targeted.  In time this would culminate in his demise at the hands of the players.  He found that even though he was encircled with demonic protection and elemental servants that he still could be put down with a well timed sword thrust. Everyone has to visit the watershed sometime, right?  Balance finds a way.

D&D was never like this!  For some reason Stormbringer both allowed and promoted actions that could be anti-heroic yet oh so entertaining.

Why did the assassinated, tortured and betrayed PCs keep coming back to the game and playing beside this tyrant?  Because it was intense and you did not want to miss a lick.  He was an unholy terror and they wanted to be a part of this epic, even if it meant they might be sacrificed during some ritual. (One or two were)  This campaign was a cruel one driven by this one player but I tell you only in this game, with this system could this have been so well executed.  The stars were aligned!

Once this campaign ended we found the system supported all kinds of play but was admittedly best suited to mundane campaigns where magic was scarce or its dark polar opposite.  I have often thought that by simply nailing on some variant modes of magic and culture one could easily play in the world of Conan, Glen Cook's Black Company, Dread Empire or any other setting where magic is something other than milk and toast and combat is serious business.

We had tried RQ2 but did not get into Glorantha and at the time it seemed a bit cumbersome for what it offered.  For some reason RQ3 has much more appeal to me as a system but came at much later date. Yet for dark, demonic vampiric dark, Stormbringer 1st edition was it.  Later editions gave up this intensity for the sake of balance and thus lost the wild dread and darkness that made 1st edition exceptional.  While others editions may be technically better they lack the mood, style and feeling that only comes when prying open that old red coffin of a 2" deep box and beholding the glory that is the red and white book.  The updated magic was for me nothing more than pouring water into wine.

If you have never held one of these 1st Edition beauties you have missed something.

For me it was a feeling and style unique in an ocean of similitude.

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2 hours ago, Mikus said:

I walked into the Brigade Shop and there on the shelf was bright shiny red box with Strombringer in a kick ass font and one bad ass looking Elric holding the Black Blade aloft.

It had all the dark sex appeal of a Nazi Flag just screaming "Touch me, I dare you."  Like a Panzer amongst a flock of Shermans it dominated the field before me.

Instantly I had to have it.  I had read Elric, Hawkmoon and Corum and even if I hadn't the ominous presence of the magnificent 1st Edition boxed set had sealed the deal.  There was no option except to bring this bad boy home and stun parents and siblings alike.  It had that presence.  Crooning with delight I forked over the required greenbacks, all my allowance had provided over the past several weeks,  into the outstretched palms of the balding merchant of delight and sped home with this portal to fantasy cashed safely upon my ten speed.

Once we played the system we were shocked at the PC death toll and overwhelming brutality of sorcery and combat alike.  We loved it!

*Sorcery was something to be feared and which felt like the dread one should have when facing something otherworldly and beyond mortal ken.

*A sword through your guts made for a very, very bad day.

*Resurrection was possible as long as you did not mind being a slave rowing some foul chaos war galley. 

This was not our grandma's RPG!

Balance you cry?  That be for wusses me lads!  One player rolled up a smokin Sorcerer from Pan Tang and played it to the hilt.  He inflicted more PC death than anything else in any of my games...ever.  Not that this was a good thing in itself, but it was unique.  Once he bound a water elemental into his 'friends' canteen which drowned him after washing down breakfast. This simply because he decided his friend could possibly become a threat down the line.  Being a sadistic megalomanic he was fine with PC underlings but anyone who was advancing too much for his liking was soon targeted.  In time this would culminate in his demise at the hands of the players.  He found that even though he was encircled with demonic protection and elemental servants that he still could be put down with a well timed sword thrust. Everyone has to visit the watershed sometime, right?  Balance finds a way.

D&D was never like this!  For some reason Stormbringer both allowed and promoted actions that could be anti-heroic yet oh so entertaining.

Why did the assassinated, tortured and betrayed PCs keep coming back to the game and playing beside this tyrant?  Because it was intense and you did not want to miss a lick.  He was an unholy terror and they wanted to be a part of this epic, even if it meant they might be sacrificed during some ritual. (One or two were)  This campaign was a cruel one driven by this one player but I tell you only in this game, with this system could this have been so well executed.  The stars were aligned!

Once this campaign ended we found the system supported all kinds of play but was admittedly best suited to mundane campaigns where magic was scarce or its dark polar opposite.  I have often thought that by simply nailing on some variant modes of magic and culture one could easily play in the world of Conan, Glen Cook's Black Company, Dread Empire or any other setting where magic is something other than milk and toast and combat is serious business.

We had tried RQ2 but did not get into Glorantha and at the time it seemed a bit cumbersome for what it offered.  For some reason RQ3 has much more appeal to me as a system but came at much later date. Yet for dark, demonic vampiric dark, Stormbringer 1st edition was it.  Later editions gave up this intensity for the sake of balance and thus lost the wild dread and darkness that made 1st edition exceptional.  While others editions may be technically better they lack the mood, style and feeling that only comes when prying open that old red coffin of a 2" deep box and beholding the glory that is the red and white book.  The updated magic was for me nothing more than pouring water into wine.

If you have never held one of these 1st Edition beauties you have missed something.

For me it was a feeling and style unique in an ocean of similitude.

You could be a poet sir!

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On 5/14/2018 at 9:58 PM, Jakob said:

Yes, that's it!

Sorry, I've seen that abbreviation so often in the last few years, I just use it without thinking.

It appears to be a pretty rare slang...  I too was puzzled at first.  The naive Google search finds mostly Fantasy-Japan (Edo period or Edo-like setting).

Googling for:   "elves dwarves orcs" OR "elves dwarves orks" EDO   finds less than 200 hits.  In contrast / for example,  rq OR runequest "strike rank"   finds over 4000 hits.

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9 hours ago, Algesan said:

Which fits right in with the politics and/or philosophical leanings on display.  Anti-establishment, counterculture, postmodernism, existentialism, etc. all think in purely simplistic terms which make up for false worldviews.  They tend to be socialistic in nature and consider fascism to be the adversary, especially the Nazi brand.  What keeps getting obscured in the "common sense" claims of National Socialism being "right wing" and International Socialism (a.k.a. Communism) being "left wing" are that they are both socialist.  About the only difference between Red Fascism and Black Fascism is that Red Fascism definitely appears to be the more efficient in slaughtering its citizens and "undesirables".

Please please PLEASE don't suck the forums down a political-theory black hole.

(n.b. despite quoting Algesan above, this is a plea to EVERYONE on this tangent; politics is so divisive these days, and political POV's can be so ardently held, that it can quickly render any forum into a toxic apocalypse).

Edited by g33k
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On 5/19/2018 at 4:21 PM, Algesan said:

  They tend to be socialistic in nature and consider fascism to be the adversary, especially the Nazi brand.  What keeps getting obscured in the "common sense" claims of National Socialism being "right wing" and International Socialism (a.k.a. Communism) being "left wing" are that they are both socialist. 

With such a fear of the word "socialism" you sound like one of those sociopathically selfish rightwing American libertarians that grace social media with their howling wails of horror at anything remotely co-operative. All of humanity is pretty much socialistic in that they tend to form societies.¬†ūüėĀ¬†LOL

Edited by Conrad
Horrorats? Scary little mammalians? No!

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20 hours ago, Algesan said:

Which fits right in with the politics and/or philosophical leanings on display.  Anti-establishment, counterculture, postmodernism, existentialism, etc. all think in purely simplistic terms which make up for false worldviews.  They tend to be socialistic in nature and consider fascism to be the adversary, especially the Nazi brand.  What keeps getting obscured in the "common sense" claims of National Socialism being "right wing" and International Socialism (a.k.a. Communism) being "left wing" are that they are both socialist.  About the only difference between Red Fascism and Black Fascism is that Red Fascism definitely appears to be the more efficient in slaughtering its citizens and "undesirables".

Y'know when people complain about 'identity politics' and that there is too much politics entering into our general, everyday discourse, when we could be discussing all sorts of topics in much less adversarial ways...there's this....

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