Question on the utility of skills

[Al.]

A discussion arose after a recent game of Call of Cthulhu about which skills investigator's are 'always' called upon to use.

I can list a few off of the top of my head, but I was wondering if I'd missed any glaringly obvious ones (I take it as read that there will be some specific to a particular story, otherwise why bother having them on the sheet or in the game, but that's not really what I'm asking. Likewise one can CHOOSE a certain course of action which leads to CHOOSING to use a skill)

• Dodge
• Drive
• First Aid
• Library Use
• Listen
• Psychology
• Spot Hidden

Any more?

 

[Atgxtg]

Fast Talk for one. Maybe a combat skill when facing off against cultists and the weaker Mythos creatures. 

But I think I get your point. Because of the focus of the game and the nature of the Mythos beings (way above the PCs ability to deal with head on) most of the PCs abilities and skills are moot. It's only when a GM expands things beyond the typical "Investigation of some Unspeakable Horror" that other abilities get called into play. Attributes are probably even less useful than skills in CoC. STR, CON, and SIZ don't mean all that much when dealing with nasties that are many times as strong as a man, that inflict multiple dice damage with one attack. Ditto POW, since most Mythos nasties have humans outclassed in that department. So really only INT (because it nets you all those skills), DEX (so you can run away before it eats you), and CHA (To help when dealing with normal folk-at least in theory, in reality it pretty much a dump stat) have much value. 

 

[klecser]

I've heard some variation on what people consider the "Holy Trifecta" of CoC Skills, but mostly : Library Use, Spot Hidden/Listen, Dodge.  I think it really depends upon what you want to contribute to the party. 

 

I agree with all the examples Atgxtg said above.  Your investigation can really be positively influenced by one of the social skills.  And POW and INT are the most critical attributes for the game, IMO.

[Atgxtg]

It can also vary a bit based upon the GM and what sort of adventures he tends to write. If he wants to use other skills or not. If the GM has the PC exploring the deserts of Egypt, or scuba diving in the Caribbean, then skills like Riding and Diving become more important then they would be in New England. 

This topic is very similar to something written for the James Bond RPG years ago. One of the authors made a list of a half dozen of so skills that every character needed, noting that the importance of the other varied based upon the GM and adventures ran. 

 

 

Edited May 4, 2018 by Atgxtg

[Al.]

Thanks guys

I can't believe that I forgot Fast Talk

[mvincent]

22 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

So really only INT (because it nets you all those skills), DEX (so you can run away before it eats you), and CHA (To help when dealing with normal folk-at least in theory

Do you mean Appearance (since CoC does not have Charisma)?

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, mvincent said:

Do you mean Appearance (since CoC does not have Charisma)?

Uh, yeah. Didn't 1st edition CoC use CHA? 

But let me try to condense all this:

STR, CON, SIZ and POW: Are all pretty much useless against most Mythos nasties, since most Mythos nasties outclass humans in these stats.☹️

APP: Is pretty much useless since it isn't used for anything (credit rating?)😡.

INT and EDU: Are important for determining the ratings in various skills, most of which aren't of much use. 😖

DEX: Is important as it determines the initiative order, which could allow an investigator to run away before he gets eaten by some nasty, or at the least, outrun the other investigators so that they get eaten instead.😱

 

It can't be that bad, can it?

 

 

 

 

 

[klecser]

I don't think we should make the assumption that someone would TRY to go toe-to-toe with Mythos nasties.  The foes that most Investigators are most likely to succeed against are often quite common in the game: human minions.  If you tell someone "POW is useless" and a player dump stats it, they are really going to struggle.  You go from not being able to contend with Mythos creatures (never really possible to begin with), to not being able to shrug off a spell cast against you by a minion (was potentially avoidable until you dumped POW).

 

The original question was "What are critical skills for Investigators?"  The POW Characteristic has to be in the discussion, IMO.  If I had a nickel for every time a published or homebrew product asked an Investigator to make an opposed POW check/Resistance Table versus a human minion...  And given that it determines your Sanity score...  I mean, am I completely misinterpreting the mechanics of the game?  POW's relevance seems pretty big to me.

 

Same goes for DEX.  Against any serious threat, a good Dodge skill coupled with getting the hell out of there is usually your best option.  It actually surprises me that I don't see more people improving Dodge on Character creation.

Edited May 7, 2018 by klecser

[Darius West]

On 5/4/2018 at 8:16 AM, Al. said:

A discussion arose after a recent game of Call of Cthulhu about which skills investigator's are 'always' called upon to use.

I can list a few off of the top of my head, but I was wondering if I'd missed any glaringly obvious ones (I take it as read that there will be some specific to a particular story, otherwise why bother having them on the sheet or in the game, but that's not really what I'm asking. Likewise one can CHOOSE a certain course of action which leads to CHOOSING to use a skill)

• Dodge
• Drive
• First Aid
• Library Use
• Listen
• Psychology
• Spot Hidden

Any more?

 

STEALTH!

If the critters and the creatures can't see you, and they can't hear you, and they can't smell you, etc. then you get to survive.  Also locksmith. 

In summary for D&D, Rogues>Mythos.  Fighters<Mythos.  Clerics+MUs=Mythos. 

[Al.]

On 5/7/2018 at 12:30 PM, klecser said:

The original question was "What are critical skills for Investigators?" 

Sort of.

The intent behind my original question was 'what skills do the players have no choice in using'?

I can choose for my investigator to (be an idiot and) shoot at a Hound of Tyndalos (sp)

I can choose for my investigator to try and use her knowledge of higher order Mathematics to calculate when the Stars Are Right

But (often if not always) I'm called upon to Spot Hidden, Listen, Psychology, Dodge (etc.) without conscious choice on my part. Succeed or it all goes horribly wrong and the investigation stalls or my PCs croaks at a dull point along its path.

 

I do see Atgxtg's point that this isn't unique to CoC. But in other games (whether I enjoy them as much or not) I'm expecting to bring an idea of my character to the table and have some choice on their area of expertise. I COULD do that in CoC with cynical deliberate allocation of skill points (a friend of mine always plays a Texan to justify a high handgun skill, another one always maxes out Psychology, Listen and Spot Hidden) but that sort of seems to be missing the ethos of HPL's writing. Failing a roll can be fun too. And some Keepers have a very deft hand at failing forward. I'm trying to think of a Third Way. I'm fairly certain that I can't be the first to have thought down these lines (in fact, as mentioned I was inspired to this by a lively discussion with my own group), so first step was in trying to work out what those <no choice you need them> skills are.

[klecser]

I think I see the distinction you're making.  In other words: Does the overarching metagame of Call of Cthulhu railroad players into certain skills?

[Mike M]

Characteristics  (apart from the derived attributes) are used to determine Occupation Skill Points, so APP,  DEX, STR, etc are useful as, depending on your character design, they decide your skill points pool.

In scenarios, yes certain skills often crop up because they are generic / useful. Other professional skills (Science, Art, etc.) are called on for expertise - usually, you will find in a scenario (at least modern ones) that something can be achieved with a Hard roll in a more generic skill (or a combined roll), whereas using a specialist skill requires only a Regular (or sometimes, no) roll. This rewards players who design rounded characters with appropriate skills to their profession. It is important to consider the advice given in the Rulebook about ensuring your players design investigators appropriate to the scenario to be played.

Edited May 15, 2018 by Mike M

[MJ Sadique]

 

On 5/14/2018 at 6:47 PM, Al. said:

The intent behind my original question was 'what skills do the players have no choice in using'?
...
But (often if not always) I'm called upon to Spot Hidden, Listen, Psychology, Dodge (etc.) without conscious choice on my part. Succeed or it all goes horribly wrong and the investigation stalls or my PCs croaks at a dull point along its path.

So, You want to know what are the core skills needed to an investigator ?

First, I'll continue in the same way of the simple and excellent post of Mike M : Most Cthulhu's scenario follow the very same development which is Discovering the myth - Investigating on its nature - Meeting the minions - Confronting the creature like in the Abomination of Dunwich or the Haunted House Scenario.

Most Core skills will depend on the Master Approach of the Myth n' the Scenario orientation. In most scenario, each steps will need to interact with peoples or find some clues to have enough infos to counter the myth because no human can fight them head on. As often center on discovering-investigating, I ask my player to spend their skills points for :
-The Two passive skills (roll on confrontation) : Spot Hidden or Listen, APP or Credit rating
-One interrogation skill among Charm, Fast talk, Intimidate, Persuade
-One Investigation skill among Library use, Law, Language (latin), History
Apart from that, the others generals skills will vary from a gameplay to another... depending on how you usually confront the myth. It's up to the GM to tells players what are the essentials skills.

 

Secondly, I don't like comments about how some (physical) characteristics are useless because :
-WHEN an investigator doesn't have a skill, the master have to use/propose one Characteristics in exchange and adjust the difficulties (ex: Spot hidden or INT + 1Malus Dice / Charm or APP -1D / Psychology +1D or POW...).
-They determine your skills (a pinkerton detective could start with 2x STR + 2x EDU %) as Mike M stated
-They determine some sec. charc. like you Build ( a low build of -1 give you 1 dice malus in any hand to hand fight or give you a bonus to pass through a tiny windows...)
-etc...

To conclude

On 5/15/2018 at 7:04 PM, Mike M said:

It is important to consider the advice given in the Rulebook about ensuring your players design investigators appropriate to the scenario to be played.

Yep, Best comment of the Year !
 

It's up to the GM to tells players what are the essentials skills. If he don't want to  ... the only core skills should be the Characteristics in an ideal play -still not at this level ^^;;- .

[g33k]

On 5/4/2018 at 4:22 PM, Atgxtg said:

... APP: Is pretty much useless since it isn't used for anything (credit rating?)😡. ...

Honestly, APP & the social skills can often be critical.  Yeah, sure, Library is used for all sorts of research purposes... but often you need that on-the-street investigation as per a cop/reporter/PI/etc, or circulating & gossiping amongst the upper-crust as a socialite/heir/etc.

YMMobviouslyV !

 

[Atgxtg]

On 5/21/2018 at 11:37 AM, g33k said:

Honestly, APP & the social skills can often be critical.  Yeah, sure, Library is used for all sorts of research purposes... but often you need that on-the-street investigation as per a cop/reporter/PI/etc, or circulating & gossiping amongst the upper-crust as a socialite/heir/etc.

YMMobviouslyV !

 

Uh, in what way? By RAW APP is fairly useless. Sure, in reality good looks can get you far, as can a winning personality, but in CoC, and most other RPGs they give little if any game benefits. Not the way a higher CON or STR give benefits. 

[g33k]

4 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Uh, in what way? By RAW APP is fairly useless. Sure, in reality good looks can get you far, as can a winning personality, but in CoC, and most other RPGs they give little if any game benefits. Not the way a higher CON or STR give benefits. 

Well, I'm not much of a CoC grognard.  I've played mostly RQ in the BRP family, and other d100 games at least as much as CoC; so maybe I'm mis-remembering.

Obviously APP applies to any "seduction" type skill (if it exists in the specific rules at the table), but I thought it also applied to Social Skills more broadly...?  Or am I just recalling a HR, or even confusing CoC with other games?

Frankly, if there ISN'T a "social stat" that strikes me as a flaw/lack in the system, because there really ARE people to whom the "social skills" come naturally/easily.

[Toadmaster]

I think this would depend heavily on the groups play style. A group of generalists, or a small group or 2 or 3 investigators will obviously have to cluster these skills more closely. A group of specialists doesn't really have a need to do so. I think a group of specialists tend to do better. If all the characters are WW1 veterans, things will likely end badly. They have combat skills so that is an option right? 😓  (This coming from the guy who usually suggests dynamite as a solution) 

 

A group needs to have all of the above listed skills, but I don't see the need for each player to have them.

Who cares if the academic can drive or fight, being fleet of foot might be a good thing though.

The muscle in CoC tends to be brainier than other games, but they certainly don't need to be on the level of the researchers. They could certainly do double duty in the communication realm particularly considering the reaction from those who perhaps don't like people asking questions.

Edited May 27, 2018 by Toadmaster

[Toadmaster]

RQ2 used Charisma, so I think safe to assume early editions of CoC did as well. I seem to have misplaced all of my CoC core books which is a bit disturbing, but BRP definitely provides a benefit to high APP, using it as the base for Charisma roles and providing a bonus to communications skills.

I've got a 3rd ed CoC so I can see where the CHA / APP standing was at that point (if I can figure out where I have them stashed).

 

I feel like Mr Whoopee at times when I'm looking for something.

 

Edited May 27, 2018 by Toadmaster

[Atgxtg]

10 hours ago, g33k said:

Well, I'm not much of a CoC grognard.  I've played mostly RQ in the BRP family, and other d100 games at least as much as CoC; so maybe I'm mis-remembering.

That the thing. In COC there aren't that many opportunities to use APP. Heck, there aren't all that many uses for APP in most BRP games. At least in RQ it can affect your skill category modfiers. 

Quote

Obviously APP applies to any "seduction" type skill (if it exists in the specific rules at the table), but I thought it also applied to Social Skills more broadly...?  Or am I just recalling a HR, or even confusing CoC with other games?

There are virtually no game mechanics that use APP in CoC. I've never seen a PC try to seduce a Mythos Entity, and if they did I doubt human standards of APP would realy apply. 

Quote

Frankly, if there ISN'T a "social stat" that strikes me as a flaw/lack in the system, because there really ARE people to whom the "social skills" come naturally/easily.

There IS a "social stat" but it just doesn't mean anything. I agree with your point. In fact,  it one reason why I'm not all that fond of CoC. There really isn't a lot the players can do about things.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Atgxtg

[Atgxtg]

7 hours ago, Toadmaster said:

I think this would depend heavily on the groups play style.

And the style of the campaign. If people are running COC the way it's presented, a game set in the world of H.P. Lovecraft, full of unimaginable horrors and such, then no, APP Isn't going to be worth much. STR, CON, INT and DEX aren't worth all that setting. That's sort of the point. Now, if someone is using CoC to run a modern or near modern campaign, then it's a different story.

 

But..my point remains that there is really no use or APP in the RAW. Yes, there is the generic Charisma roll, which itself is somewhat superseded by the various social skills, and I believe it determines the Credit Rating skill, but that's not much for a Characteristic. Most of APP's value is in how GM decide to use it, or not. 

[Toadmaster]

The piece you quoted from me was actually referring to the idea that there are skills every character must have.

 

As we are apparently off on a tangent Social skills have as much utility in a mythos game as any other. Sure you aren't going to seduce Cthulhu, but you might bluff your way past a cultist guard, bribe a book store owner to let you copy some passages from a rare book or have to convince a police chief that yes there are townspeople secretly trying to bring about the end of the world as we know it.

I never noticed that CoC doesn't follow BRP on the APP bonus to communications skills, I guess we just house ruled that.

[Atgxtg]

9 hours ago, Toadmaster said:

RQ2 used Charisma, so I think safe to assume early editions of CoC did as well.

It was in 1st Edition. 2nd edition had APP, but the character writeups in the Sourcebook for the 1920s had CHA. I think the reason is that RQ3 used APP, so they changed it in later edtions of CoC to match with RQ and their other games. 

[MJ Sadique]

9 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Uh, in what way? By RAW APP is fairly useless. Sure, in reality good looks can get you far, as can a winning personality, but in CoC, and most other RPGs they give little if any game benefits. Not the way a higher CON or STR give benefits. 

Hell no ! If it was useless, there wolud be no APP like a lot of games (L5R)

12 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

There are virtually no game mechanics that use APP in CoC.

Not Exact !
In Cthulhu v7, the APP is how you look and/or how your personality is ! Every single time you meet a NPC, the GM roll an (secret) test of APP or Credit to state if you're welcomed or if the NPC will just ignore you because he just can't stand you ! (Same mechanic as the charisma roll since v2).
-In the worst case, a very bad first contact and he could become a major problem in the investigation.
-In the best case, you could make a new contact / cultist (depending on which side your are)

12 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

... which itself is somewhat superseded by the various social skills, and I believe it determines the Credit Rating skill, but that's not much for a Characteristic. Most of APP's value is in how GM decide to use it, or not. 

Hell Yes !

APP seems useless for a lot of players because it doesn't have any benefits in fights or secondary characteristics but it's due to how you play more than what the system let me do ! a lot of GM just follow the rules and if the rules doesn't permit one actions they ...
1/ ... will blindly tell you  "it's not in the rules so I don't accept it". (God know, I hate this !!!)
2/ ... will create house-rules to fix the game and give players some "tools" (I used to do it a lot)
3/ ... will just follow one of the first and basic rule : IF there is not skill to solve a situation, choose the appropriate characteristic and make a roll (Now I prefer this easy-way solution)

If the way you play don't involve any social interaction, you don't need APP but it's the your way of doing it ... Just for one time, change your scenario perspective and the utility of APP or any social skills will greatly change : as example, take "Masks of Nyarlathotep" scenario (NY / London / Paris) and change the approach of the local cult by infiltrating it with a 3-6 months...

In most of Cthulhu's novels and Howard's Conan adventures, the side-of-the-moral hero fight an horror after discovering his flaw and/or doing a great ritual, but what if you use you charm to convince others people to do it for you :
-You will lose less SAN as you don't confront yourself to the horror nor use any spell !
-You won't need to directly confront the horror, just the deaths of the people you manipulate
-Some players will love to play the master-mind, a role usually restricted to NPC
-All players that always do the same concepts (the texan pistolero or players who always maxes out Psychology, Listen and Spot Hidden ...) will have some new challenges and not the same variation of scenario...
 
Playing on your charm / charisma by sending some cultists doing the dirty just job is immoral but it's not forbidden... and it's FUN XD

Force you player do some coming-out  :
-Force them to buy high-class tuxedo to justify using their Credits skills of 75% instead of their crappy 45% APP ...
-Make them stay out of all "You can buy a great protection relic in our next Eldrich's Society Auctions" unless they throw their old Indiana Jones's vest in the garbage dump...

RPG can be an art like French Cooking WHEN Something seems useless ... it's because you haven't found a way to discover it's REAL FLAVOR ^_-
 

[Atgxtg]

20 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

Hell no ! If it was useless, there wolud be no APP like a lot of games (L5R)

Not Exact !
In Cthulhu v7, the APP is how you look and/or how your personality is ! Every single time you meet a NPC, the GM roll an (secret) test of APP or Credit to state if you're welcomed or if the NPC will just ignore you because he just can't stand you ! (Same mechanic as the charisma roll since v2).
-In the worst case, a very bad first contact and he could become a major problem in the investigation.
-In the best case, you could make a new contact / cultist (depending on which side your are)

Now THAT is useful. A few RPGS (GURPS and especially the James Bond RPG) do something like that and it can be very useful. I recall one Bond game where a the receptionist at the hotel was smitten (critical Charisma roll) with a PC and proved very helpful when he wanted to investigate someone else at the hotel. 

 

20 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

Hell Yes !

APP seems useless for a lot of players because it doesn't have any benefits in fights or secondary characteristics but it's due to how you play more than what the system let me do ! a lot of GM just follow the rules and if the rules doesn't permit one actions they ...

In other words, it's up to the GM. Like I said, there is nothing in the rules. A player has this score on their sheet (APP) that the GM is supposed to take into account, but which doesn't actually do anything.

For comparison there have been a few times on this board or elsewhere where the subject of a character trying to charm/seduce their way out of a problem was brought up and a lot of people complain "Why can't you just roleplay it?" My counter is "why can't you just roleplay a sword fight?"

 

[Al.]

4 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

For comparison there have been a few times on this board or elsewhere where the subject of a character trying to charm/seduce their way out of a problem was brought up and a lot of people complain "Why can't you just roleplay it?" My counter is "why can't you just roleplay a sword fight?"

Not quite what I had in mind when I posed the question; but the joy of starting a thread is not feeling any guilt about contributing towards thread drift.

I fully agree with that post. In Real Landtm I am a notoriously rubbish liar; if I have any input to a character's competence I always make them excellent liars. It's part of my wish fulfillment, something which I just cannot do for real I can pretend to do with funny sided dice. Similarly an old gaming buddy of mine was (and may still be, I've not seen him for years) a doorman at quite a rough bar, his RPG characters are always complete cowards and wet tissue paper in a physical fight. He simply has no interest in playing in a game a role which he has to play in normal life.