Opinions on Damage

[SDLeary]

I've always favored the Pendragon way of figuring damage; based upon characteristics, perhaps modified by weapon (depending upon the weapon). I also favor the ability to model things like "grazing" damage, enough for the character to feel, but not enough to seriously damage or inhibit a location; normally represented in my mind by 1pt. of damage. This is pretty hard in BRP games (of which I count Pendragon) with multiple dice figuring into damage calculations and modifiers to the damage of most weapons (ex. 1d8+1), or without something in the way to block a portion of the damage. In this vein, I'm considering characteristic based damage; nd6–(n–1) for d6 based damage.

Now I do agree that creatures larger/stronger than Human size should do more base damage; so for example a Gloranthan Dark Troll should have that "graze" represented by 2pts. of damage.

Does anyone out there have a method in mind to overcome the discrepancy here? I have also thought about using multiple dice up to d12 (starting with d4), but break points to add a second die seem to be too soon, and if I compensate, then average for a human drops too much, necessitating a refactoring of HP and Armor values.

Now on to a related issue...

I'm using locations, and want to use locational values as single hit threshold values for Major Wounds. I was thinking of reducing the Abdomen multiplier to .25, and the Head to .20, to represent their vulnerabilities. Abdomen with lots of vitals and no rib cage to protect them, and the head, well its the head.

Opinions?

Thanks Much
SDLeary

[Atgxtg]

What you could do is reduce the base weapon damage, but increase the modifiers for success levels. For example, you could have a sword do only 1d3 or 1d4, but do two dice on a special, and 4 on a critical. If you wanted you could even add another success level ala CoC7 and do something like 1D/2D/3D/4D.

 

If you go characteristic based damage, then scale the damage die. so that each step up in damage shift to the next higher die. The base damage die could be a 1D6 and 1D6+1D4 would be 1D8, 2D6 would be 1D10 and so on. 

[g33k]

On 5/15/2018 at 11:20 AM, SDLeary said:

Now I do agree that creatures larger/stronger than Human size should do more base damage; so for example a Gloranthan Dark Troll should have that "graze" represented by 2pts. of damage.

It depends by what you want to model with a "graze."  If it represents a "hit" that almost missed, that swung through the space where your body ISN'T except for a millimeter or two at the tip or edge of the weapon/claw/whatever... then no, I don't see a Dark Troll or other large/strong creature doing more damage -- the teensy bit of skin that got hit wouldn't have offered any more resistance to the swing of a Trollkin.

[Toadmaster]

With the relatively small amount of total hit points, I think grazes are 0 damage and included within misses.

Not really sure there is a way to change that without substantial complexity such as changing damage based on amount of success.

 

Regarding abdominal vitals, they are rather different than chest head vitals. Heart. lung, brain are organs that can result in near instantaneous fight stoppers. The head of course does offer a skull, which is a fairly substantial bit of "armor".

Abdominal organs tend to be more of the long term killers, bleeding being the shorter term issue, liver, kidneys and pancreas being rather important for long term survival and damage to intestines being a great source of infection. Other than intestines the abdominal organs are fairly well protected, the liver, pancreas and spleen are partially covered by the rib cage from the front and entirely protected from the rear, the kidneys are also fairly well protected, bone (short ribs / spine) from the rear and intestines and muscle from the front. 

 

The issue I've run across with the base BRP damage system, is that is does a pretty good job as is. When I've tinkered with it I find it almost as easy to substitute it with something more fitting to my mood. It is fairly easy to substitute a damage system from other games.

[SDLeary]

3 hours ago, g33k said:

It depends by what you want to model with a "graze."  If it represents a "hit" that almost missed, that swung through the space where your body ISN'T except for a millimeter or two at the tip or edge of the weapon/claw/whatever... then no, I don't see a Dark Troll or other large/strong creature doing more damage -- the teensy bit of skin that got hit wouldn't have offered any more resistance to the swing of a Trollkin.

Graze is the wrong word... flesh wound would probably be better. I visualize everyone coming out of combat with scrapes, cuts, bloody noses, etc. 

A wound that looks bad, bleeds enough to cause companions concern (but doesn't cost HP), and hurts like hell. Because I'm using locational values as thresholds for Major Wounds, I want to try and make sure that I'm not going to get auto-MW, save by a decent side beastie.

SDLeary

[Atgxtg]

But even with a "decent sized" beastie it's possible to get a glancing blow. That's why I think setting the number of dice by the success level is the way to go to get what you want. That way something big might do 1D10, 2D10 or even 3D10 on a moderate hit and roll low for a "flesh wound". Much more likely than if they are rolling 1D6+9D6 db or some such.

[SDLeary]

 

5 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

If you go characteristic based damage, then scale the damage die. so that each step up in damage shift to the next higher die. The base damage die could be a 1D6 and 1D6+1D4 would be 1D8, 2D6 would be 1D10 and so on. 

I have a prototype table that starts off a 1d4, moves to 1d6, and then so on. It doesn't ... look right though. I need to play with the breakpoints I think. Currently breaking at every five, then iterating to the next die so that minimum damage sits at 1 (not using the formula from the first post on this table).

SDLeary

 

[SDLeary]

1 minute ago, Atgxtg said:

But even with a "decent sized" beastie it's possible to get a glancing blow. That's why I think setting the number of dice by the success level is the way to go to get what you want. That way something big might do 1D10, 2D10 or even 3D10 on a moderate hit and roll low for a "flesh wound". Much more likely than if they are rolling 1D6+9D6 db or some such.

Yes, hence the -1 on the die formula in the first post, or using die progression as far as I can to maintain the minimum at 1.

SDLeary

[Atgxtg]

Well if you go with something like:

STR+SIZ

-11     1D4

12-24 1D6

25-32  1D8

33-40  1D10

41-56  1D10+1D2

57-72 1D10+1D4

73-88 1D10+1D6

89-104 1D10+1D8

105-120 2D10

 

+16     etc. ( +1D2/1D4/1D6/1D8/1D10)

 

You would have an RQ Dragon (STR+SIZ 140) doing something like 2D10+1D4 for a minimum of 3 points. 

 

 

 

[RosenMcStern]

We have been doing this in Revolution (and all shades of hiybrids with other BRP variants) without any great need to change average damages for weapons and armour. The point is fully embracing the logic of the "threshold" : anything below the threshold is "just a flesh wound", not just 1-point wounds. It hurts, but it cannot kill or incapacitate you, so you do not mark it off total hit points. Works like a breeze...

[Atgxtg]

 

6 hours ago, RosenMcStern said:

 The point is fully embracing the logic of the "threshold" : anything below the threshold is "just a flesh wound", not just 1-point wounds. It hurts, but it cannot kill or incapacitate you, so you do not mark it off total hit points. Works like a breeze...

I've been thinking of using something like that for a variant I have. It would especially help with vehicles. Realistically, someone could shoot at a battleship with a SMG all day long and not sink it. Chances are the SMG would break down long before they did serious damage to the ship. Even a car can get shot of pretty badly and still run. All those holes will affect the aerodynamics a bit, not to mention ruin the day of any driver, passengers or cargo, but the car would still be functional. Something like 1/5th SIZ seems about right. 

[SDLeary]

7 hours ago, RosenMcStern said:

We have been doing this in Revolution (and all shades of hiybrids with other BRP variants) without any great need to change average damages for weapons and armour. The point is fully embracing the logic of the "threshold" : anything below the threshold is "just a flesh wound", not just 1-point wounds. It hurts, but it cannot kill or incapacitate you, so you do not mark it off total hit points. Works like a breeze...

I agree, but I was trying to go the Pendragon route with damage (nD6), based on characteristics. nD6 – (n-1) being my first inclination. Using a table with multiple die types is another attempt at seeing this from another angle, and to make things easier when stat-ing missile weapons and firearms. Trying to make the minimum 1 is an attempt to make sure "flesh wounds" are possible even with unarmored foes. 

Another option, of course, is to use Heroic level hit points, kicking up all the thresholds.

SDLeary

 

 

[SDLeary]

 

23 hours ago, Toadmaster said:

Regarding abdominal vitals, they are rather different than chest head vitals. Heart. lung, brain are organs that can result in near instantaneous fight stoppers. The head of course does offer a skull, which is a fairly substantial bit of "armor".

Sadly, the critical bit still bounces around inside this armor, causing issues. I want to try and capture that, primarily in effect having people KOd more often. 

23 hours ago, Toadmaster said:

Abdominal organs tend to be more of the long term killers, bleeding being the shorter term issue, liver, kidneys and pancreas being rather important for long term survival and damage to intestines being a great source of infection. Other than intestines the abdominal organs are fairly well protected, the liver, pancreas and spleen are partially covered by the rib cage from the front and entirely protected from the rear, the kidneys are also fairly well protected, bone (short ribs / spine) from the rear and intestines and muscle from the front. 

This falls in line with my thinking that long term consequences are almost non-existent when using locations. Locational thresholds leading to locational effects in the  Major Wounds Table.

23 hours ago, Toadmaster said:

The issue I've run across with the base BRP damage system, is that is does a pretty good job as is. When I've tinkered with it I find it almost as easy to substitute it with something more fitting to my mood. It is fairly easy to substitute a damage system from other games.

Yes! Thats actually what I'm doing here. I have 2300AD on the mind, with a healthy dose of The Expanse. And sadly, for some reason, River of Heaven is not scratching that itch at the moment.

SDLeary

[Toadmaster]

More and more I find myself preferring effects based damage rather than hit point based, examples being Role master, Morrow Project. Tri-Tac. Phoenix Command etc. It is unfortunately chart reliant, but allows or more flavored and specific damage results. Hit points generally capturing structural integrity with enough hits eventually causing death / dismemberment but usually an individual wound will usually be what really matters.

Charts don't have to be super detailed as with Phoenix Command, or endless lists of humorous critical hits as in Role Master. It could very easily be based on a d6 or d10, the type of attack and location determining how serious the wound (up to death). A dagger slash to the head is likely to be superficial, but could still cause serious issues (eyes in particular) while a blunt weapon would be more likely to result in important bits getting bounced around even if the skull does its job. Various modifiers could be applied to the results, based on level of success, str/siz, skill, weapon used etc.

 

As I mentioned much more complexity which is at odds with my generally preferring simpler systems these days...

[Mugen]

10 hours ago, SDLeary said:

I agree, but I was trying to go the Pendragon route with damage (nD6), based on characteristics. nD6 – (n-1) being my first inclination. Using a table with multiple die types is another attempt at seeing this from another angle, and to make things easier when stat-ing missile weapons and firearms. Trying to make the minimum 1 is an attempt to make sure "flesh wounds" are possible even with unarmored foes. 

Another option, of course, is to use Heroic level hit points, kicking up all the thresholds.

SDLeary

 

 

You could try to use the Star Wars D6 progression chart : 1d6, 1d6+1, 1d6+2, 2d6, 2d6+1, 2d6+2, 3d6, and so on...

[SDLeary]

17 hours ago, Mugen said:

You could try to use the Star Wars D6 progression chart : 1d6, 1d6+1, 1d6+2, 2d6, 2d6+1, 2d6+2, 3d6, and so on...

I've thought of other tables; in fact my first thought was the Mythras damage bonus table, simply shifting things down.

I'm shooting to have 1pt be the minimum throughout almost the entire human range, if not the entire human range. The next "step" being a minimum of 2, and this would probably be for a beastie of Dark Troll stature. Adds always complicate this.

SDLeary

[SDLeary]

Oh, by the way...

Damage = (STR + SIZ)/10 is the formula that i'm using to determine number of d6 if I end up going the Pendragon route. 

SDLeary

Edited June 8, 2018 by SDLeary

[Madrona]

On 6/6/2018 at 7:09 PM, Toadmaster said:

More and more I find myself preferring effects based damage rather than hit point based, examples being Role master, Morrow Project. Tri-Tac. Phoenix Command etc. It is unfortunately chart reliant, but allows or more flavored and specific damage results. Hit points generally capturing structural integrity with enough hits eventually causing death / dismemberment but usually an individual wound will usually be what really matters.

Charts don't have to be super detailed as with Phoenix Command, or endless lists of humorous critical hits as in Role Master. It could very easily be based on a d6 or d10, the type of attack and location determining how serious the wound (up to death). A dagger slash to the head is likely to be superficial, but could still cause serious issues (eyes in particular) while a blunt weapon would be more likely to result in important bits getting bounced around even if the skull does its job. Various modifiers could be applied to the results, based on level of success, str/siz, skill, weapon used etc.

 

As I mentioned much more complexity which is at odds with my generally preferring simpler systems these days...

I was thinking as a thought exercise of hacking Sanguine's 'cardinal game system'. into BRP once upon a time.

(Combat is based around not HP,  but hits. Which range from 0-6, 0= unhurt, 1=hurt which causes future damage to do extra, 2=hurt and unable to attack (They're afraid and retreating from combat unless rallied by an ally, 3=badly hurt and afraid. (Which boosts damage against you more) 4= dying and helpless, 5= dead, 6= catastrophically killed and demoralizing allies.)
You survive by avoiding damage, or expending gifts or using soaks. (soaks are a defense that can vary in system both in the power of them and their times used, I.E. A warrior may have better stay in a fight with reusable soaks, but a peasant may literally have "flees in terror", which would have a higher mod than a steady defensive fighting style but has the disadvantage of only being effective if you're, well, fleeing in terror.

Basically I'd use defensive degrees of success with armor points levels counting as expendable 'soak' modifiers, and add in a combat gift system like Ironclaw. It never went anywhere but it could probably be done without too much effort. That does shift combat to a more narrative sort of thing though.

[Atgxtg]

On 6/6/2018 at 10:09 PM, Toadmaster said:

More and more I find myself preferring effects based damage rather than hit point based, examples being Role master, Morrow Project. Tri-Tac. Phoenix Command etc. It is unfortunately chart reliant, but allows or more flavored and specific damage results. Hit points generally capturing structural integrity with enough hits eventually causing death / dismemberment but usually an individual wound will usually be what really matters.

Charts don't have to be super detailed as with Phoenix Command, or endless lists of humorous critical hits as in Role Master. It could very easily be based on a d6 or d10, the type of attack and location determining how serious the wound (up to death). A dagger slash to the head is likely to be superficial, but could still cause serious issues (eyes in particular) while a blunt weapon would be more likely to result in important bits getting bounced around even if the skull does its job. Various modifiers could be applied to the results, based on level of success, str/siz, skill, weapon used etc.

 

As I mentioned much more complexity which is at odds with my generally preferring simpler systems these days...

BRTC's Timelords did this, as did their much simpler CORPS RPG. In CORPS when you got hit the damage taken set the difficulty for impairment, and to to see if someone was KOd or if they took an eventually fatal wound or even an autokill. Hit locations just provided a modifier. Limb hits tended to result in a greater impairment, but were less lethal. It could be used for BRP with a few adjustments. 

[Atgxtg]

On 6/7/2018 at 8:14 PM, SDLeary said:

Oh, by the way...

Damage = (STR + SIZ)/10 is the formula that i'm using to determine number of d6 if I end up going the Pendragon route. 

SDLeary

So an average character is going to do 2D6 damage. I think you'd be better off with the Pendragon route, doubled hit points, (STR+SIZ/6)D6, doubled armor, etc.

I think with /10 you won't have much variation between characters. And the minimums for the big critters will make them too tough. A STR 32 SIZ 32 bear would be doing 6D6 (BTW /10 is the Pendragon formula for monsters), which is pretty much an autokill in RQ. Even minimum damage of 6 points will disable a location. RQ's /16 per D6 (the damage bonus table) might work better for critters (4D6 bear), but might leave characters underpowered. Unless you had an add for weapons. 

 

But I think if you want to have low minimums you need to go with an increasing die size. Or just set a higher damage threshold. Putting humans at 4 or 5 might help.

[Toadmaster]

25 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

BRTC's Timelords did this, as did their much simpler CORPS RPG. In CORPS when you got hit the damage taken set the difficulty for impairment, and to to see if someone was KOd or if they took an eventually fatal wound or even an autokill. Hit locations just provided a modifier. Limb hits tended to result in a greater impairment, but were less lethal. It could be used for BRP with a few adjustments. 

 

Wow, I haven't looked at CORPS or even thought about it in years. It seemed to have lots of potential but I never did much with it. I'm fascinated by games that explain the "physics" behind their rules, and BTRC was very good about doing that, it seems like that was what half the books were about.

 

My inspiration is based more on the games I mentioned as well as the lesser known FASA Behind Enemy Lines and Task Force Games Delta Force. None quite hit the perfect balance for me but I really like the concept as it allows for the uncertainty of the possible one shot kill or the Tony Montana coke fueled "say hello to my little friend" death scene from Scar Face which hit points tends not to provide. 

[Atgxtg]

8 minutes ago, Toadmaster said:

 

Wow, I haven't looked at CORPS or even thought about it in years. It seemed to have lots of potential but I never did much with it.

It had it good points. The damage thing was pretty easy. Yo rolled 1D10 against the damage taken, If under then the wound was "eventually" fatal. That is it would kill you unless it got treated successfully. How fast it killed you also depended on the roll, as it determined how fast you bleed out health points. If you made the roll by 5 or more (I think) it was an autokill. 

Very simple but effective.

 

8 minutes ago, Toadmaster said:

I'm fascinated by games that explain the "physics" behind their rules, and BTRC was very good about doing that, it seems like that was what half the books were about.

Yeah Greg Porter is probably the best at that. Of course most game designers don't use as much real world data in their games.  I love the Stuff! supplement for his EABA RPG. You could build just about anything using the SIZ of the object. 

8 minutes ago, Toadmaster said:

 

My inspiration is based more on the games I mentioned as well as the lesser known FASA Behind Enemy Lines and Task Force Games Delta Force. None quite hit the perfect balance for me but I really like the concept as it allows for the uncertainty of the possible one shot kill or the Tony Montana coke fueled "say hello to my little friend" death scene from Scar Face which hit points tends not to provide. 

The Bond RPG did that with Wound Levels instead of Hit Points. The wound level being determined by cross indexing the Damage Class of the weapon with the Success Level. Come to think of it, that approach might work here. 

[SDLeary]

17 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

So an average character is going to do 2D6 damage. I think you'd be better off with the Pendragon route, doubled hit points, (STR+SIZ/6)D6, doubled armor, etc.

I think with /10 you won't have much variation between characters. And the minimums for the big critters will make them too tough. A STR 32 SIZ 32 bear would be doing 6D6 (BTW /10 is the Pendragon formula for monsters), which is pretty much an autokill in RQ. ...

This was my thought, and why I started checking out a progressive table. I chose /10 originally because it allowed damage to exist in roughly the same range as RQ3; similar average and similar max for a "normal" adventurer with a +1d4 bonus (based on a 1d8 -ish weapon). Variation would be minimal enough that compensating would be almost trivial. As noted though, the higher end especially with beasties becomes a real issue.

17 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

But I think if you want to have low minimums you need to go with an increasing die size. Or just set a higher damage threshold. Putting humans at 4 or 5 might help.

Yeah, using Heroic HP or simply bumping locational values on the table to the left a bit.

SDLeary

[Atgxtg]

20 minutes ago, SDLeary said:

This was my thought, and why I started checking out a progressive table. I chose /10 originally because it allowed damage to exist in roughly the same range as RQ3; similar average and similar max for a "normal" adventurer with a +1d4 bonus (based on a 1d8 -ish weapon). Variation would be minimal enough that compensating would be almost trivial. As noted though, the higher end especially with beasties becomes a real issue.

Yeah, and using smaller dice means a bigger constant plus. (STR+SIZ)/16 works for creatures,  but leaves you little variation between PCs, unless you vary die size.

Some other options:

• You could use an increasing formula, something like a square root to keep the bigger critters in check. If you use something like square root (STR+SIZ)/2 you get an average character doing 2D6, but keep a bear down to 4D6, and a dragon down to 6D6. 
• You could use the /10 damage but treat db as a multiplier. So a normal person would do x1 damage, but a bear x4, and a dragon x14.  Then just say than a roll on 1 on the damage die does 1 point, no modifiers. Note that with this method you could keep the weapon damage die if you wanted to, or just say everone does 1D6  (or 2D6 or 1D12) or some such. 

20 minutes ago, SDLeary said:

Yeah, using Heroic HP or simply bumping locational values on the table to the left a bit.

It gives you more wiggle room. Much like how changing the human SIZ range from 3-18 to 8-18 opened up room for smaller than mansized creatures (SIZ 1-7 instead of 1-2).  Your problem here is that multiple dice lead to low minimums and a stronger bell curve. Someone might roll 6 points on 6D6 but anything under a dozen is very very unlikely. That's why I think 1D20 is better for your purposes than 3D6. Same average, but a grazing hit is far more likely. 

 

[Questbird]

On 6/7/2018 at 12:09 PM, Toadmaster said:

More and more I find myself preferring effects based damage rather than hit point based, examples being Role master, Morrow Project. Tri-Tac. Phoenix Command etc. It is unfortunately chart reliant, but allows or more flavored and specific damage results. Hit points generally capturing structural integrity with enough hits eventually causing death / dismemberment but usually an individual wound will usually be what really matters.

Charts don't have to be super detailed as with Phoenix Command, or endless lists of humorous critical hits as in Role Master. It could very easily be based on a d6 or d10, the type of attack and location determining how serious the wound (up to death). A dagger slash to the head is likely to be superficial, but could still cause serious issues (eyes in particular) while a blunt weapon would be more likely to result in important bits getting bounced around even if the skull does its job. Various modifiers could be applied to the results, based on level of success, str/siz, skill, weapon used etc.

 

As I mentioned much more complexity which is at odds with my generally preferring simpler systems these days...

 

I've been using a hitpointless system* for my Swords of Cydoria campaign. It's been quite successful for a swords + blasters game, and it doesn't rely on a huge number of charts (just the Resistance Table). Nor does it use hit locations. A successful resistance roll vs damage basically means a flesh wound or graze; in other words no game effect.

 

* It uses the Resistance table: ((CON + SIZ + POW) / 3) VS. ((max weapon damage + max damage bonus) - armour)

Success - OK to fight

Fail - knocked out of the fight -- find out how wounded you are afterwards

More info -- search for 'hitpoint-less' on this forum.