RQG PC's Preview - Spirit Magic

[Psullie]

Just enjoying the preview of RQG and the treatment of the example heroes and noticed the relative weakness of their Spirit Magic arsenal. No Bladesharp or Protection which was near ubiquitous with RQ2 - Sorala has none but does give us a first glimpse at Sorcery. However all characters seem to have ample recourse to Rune Magic with the line 'All common Rune spells' for each plus 3 or so specialised ones. But as most only have 3 or 4 rune points variety doesn't mean plenty. 

 

[styopa]

^agreed.  Plus they just feel a little wonky with pretty ample rune magic but skills more like good initiates.  

 

Some other observations:

If everyone's going to have access to "all common rune spells" wouldn't it be easier to rule it as generally so, unless otherwise mentioned?

10 point mp crystals are a lot more common in your campaign than mine.  And a 14? yikes.

Elementals crazy OP considering they don't seem to need an attack roll?  (IIRC they didn't in RQ3 either)

Totally would called-shot Vasana in the skirt (with only 3AP) vs the rest of her body (5AP).  Doesn't seem terribly practical.

Shadowcats get all their 3 attacks simultaneously?  Yikes.

inconsistency in Nathem attacks - comp bow only 1 attack on SR6, but javelin is listed as 1/MR...when?  1d10 damage for javelin?

 

 

 

[jongjom]

52 minutes ago, styopa said:

inconsistency in Nathem attacks - comp bow only 1 attack on SR6, but javelin is listed as 1/MR...when?  1d10 damage for javelin?

The Rules explain 1/MR. However, the Composite Bow SR looks like an unspotted typo: it should be 1 

[Psullie]

Elementals are costly, 1 RP to summon & 2 RP to Command so not something done lightly. 

I think shifting the balance to Rune magic from Spirit Magic is fine - wait and see how character generation works, and as a GM you could control use through management of recovering lost RP. But I always liked the tactical element of Spirit Magic and converting old RQ2 & 3 scenarios may become a little more complex as you will need to reconfigure the spell selections. 

[jajagappa]

18 minutes ago, Psullie said:

But I always liked the tactical element of Spirit Magic and converting old RQ2 & 3 scenarios may become a little more complex as you will need to reconfigure the spell selections.

Spirit magic is still there, and the spell selections have not particularly changed.  These pre-gens each have 5 points of spirit magic (except Vishi Dun who is training to be a shaman).

In RQ2, if you used previous experience, you got 1d6 spirit magic spells if a barbarian, roughly 5 spells if a cavalry mercenary, and up to 8 potentially if an infantry mercenary.  So think that falls right in line.

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Psullie said:

all characters seem to have ample recourse to Rune Magic with the line 'All common Rune spells' for each plus 3 or so specialised ones. But as most only have 3 or 4 rune points variety doesn't mean plenty

The advantage is that if you happen to run into some nasty ghost, you don't have to curse yourself for not selecting Spirit Block.  Or if you did select Spirit Block, and run into some bandits instead, wish you had a couple uses of Lightning to blast them with.  The limitation is your rune points, and far less your choice of rune spells.

[Runeblogger]

These pages have an awesome look. 

But I don't get Yanioth. What's the benefit in purely game terms of being an apprentice priestess? 

[styopa]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Spirit magic is still there, and the spell selections have not particularly changed.  These pre-gens each have 5 points of spirit magic (except Vishi Dun who is training to be a shaman).

In RQ2, if you used previous experience, you got 1d6 spirit magic spells if a barbarian, roughly 5 spells if a cavalry mercenary, and up to 8 potentially if an infantry mercenary.  So think that falls right in line.

Excerpt Iirc these are all supposed to be early rune level or nearly rune level toons?  Saying they fall in line with beginning toons would really be agreeing that they're underpowered, in terms of spirit magic....?

[Psullie]

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Spirit magic is still there, and the spell selections have not particularly changed.  These pre-gens each have 5 points of spirit magic (except Vishi Dun who is training to be a shaman).

In RQ2, if you used previous experience, you got 1d6 spirit magic spells if a barbarian, roughly 5 spells if a cavalry mercenary, and up to 8 potentially if an infantry mercenary.  So think that falls right in line.

I get that, ( and as stypoa mentions we don't know what level the pre-gens represent) but I was just commenting on the balance. With RQ2 most only had Battle Magic, so the your choice was very tactical and learning new magic or boosting existing spells an active part of play. Now PC also have a Rune 'well' to tap into which will impact on the relevance or importance of battle magic.

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

The advantage is that if you happen to run into some nasty ghost, you don't have to curse yourself for not selecting Spirit Block.  Or if you did select Spirit Block, and run into some bandits instead, wish you had a couple uses of Lightning to blast them with.  The limitation is your rune points, and far less your choice of rune spells.

So far this is a much bigger game changer than Passions. And I think I rather like it, it gives cult affiliated real clout (assuming that ignorant heathens get none) and as you point out can make the rather dangerous world of Glorantha survivable. But it works both ways, all sentient beings with affiliation will have some access to Rune Magics with powerful characters drawing on considerable RP reserves. 

[jajagappa]

34 minutes ago, Psullie said:

So far this is a much bigger game changer than Passions. And I think I rather like it, it gives cult affiliated real clout (assuming that ignorant heathens get none) and as you point out can make the rather dangerous world of Glorantha survivable. But it works both ways, all sentient beings with affiliation will have some access to Rune Magics with powerful characters drawing on considerable RP reserves. 

When I ran the Quickstart, I found that both the Rune/Passion augments and the use of rune points to power various available Rune Magic both came strongly into play.  With the former, a 20% boost in skill through a battle made a considerable difference (die hated Greydog!).  But so did available rune magic - Yanioth's Inviolable spell does wonders, and Spirit Block can be a lifesaver.  And spirit magic is still there - and really depends on what you want to pick up.  In the old days, you picked up Bladesharp and Protection to keep you going in combat.  But if I can boost my skill with an augment and no MP loss, maybe I really want Heal instead (because I don't want to give up precious rune points on that).  What I like is that these added dimensions increase the opportunities for different playing styles and approaches.

As you note, it also gives the GM's some powerful weapons.  

1 hour ago, styopa said:

Excerpt Iirc these are all supposed to be early rune level or nearly rune level toons?  Saying they fall in line with beginning toons would really be agreeing that they're underpowered, in terms of spirit magic....? 

Most of them are ~21, the equivalent of the old RQ2 character with advanced experience.  Based on the skill levels, most seem like they'd be 5-10 sessions away from a rune level.

None of them are RQ2 beginning characters (aka Rurik at age 16), which didn't even have spirit/battle magic. 

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Runeblogger said:

What's the benefit in purely game terms of being an apprentice priestess?

Maybe got to use that occupation in developing/selecting skills.  And maybe also has an "in" at her local temple. 🙂

[simonh]

23 hours ago, styopa said:

Excerpt Iirc these are all supposed to be early rune level or nearly rune level toons?  Saying they fall in line with beginning toons would really be agreeing that they're underpowered, in terms of spirit magic....?

I believe they’re starting characters, equivalent to what you can generate yourself. Think of them as the characters as they were at the beginning of Vassana’s saga. As such they’re are competent and capable, but with loads of room for growth.

Simon Hibbs

Edited May 19, 2018 by simonh

[g33k]

On 5/18/2018 at 12:50 PM, Runeblogger said:

But I don't get Yanioth. What's the benefit in purely game terms of being an apprentice priestess? 

it's part of the lifepath character-generation, I'm almost certain...  Some people might be "Veteran's of the FHQ's cavalry" and get bonus skills for riding, mounted combat, etc; some are apprentices in various magical or religious traditions, and get associated Rune and Spirit abilities.

And from a RP perspective, she automatically gets a certain amount of social power/authority (until/unless a full priestess is around), can call upon more help/resources from temples and affiliated/allied Cults, etc etc etc.  Of course, she's also got the responsibilities -- in the absence of a full Priestess on Holy Days, she will need to officiate for the community worship, etc; in the presence of a full Priestess she will be subject to her orders, etc...

  

[Mugen]

On 5/18/2018 at 6:27 PM, styopa said:

10 point mp crystals are a lot more common in your campaign than mine.  And a 14? yikes.

This is line with RuneQuest 2, whose Treasure chapter only mentioned 2d6+3 MP storage crystals.

With such a guideline, 10 is average, and 14 has 2 chances out of 36 to occur.

I checked Elder Secrets (for RQ) and though it has 1d6 Storage Crystals, 2d6+3 is still the most common.

[styopa]

27 minutes ago, Mugen said:

This is line with RuneQuest 2, whose Treasure chapter only mentioned 2d6+3 MP storage crystals.

With such a guideline, 10 is average, and 14 has 2 chances out of 36 to occur.

I checked Elder Secrets (for RQ) and though it has 1d6 Storage Crystals, 2d6+3 is still the most common.

You're right.  I guess I ruled a forgettably long time ago that was OP, handing characters what typically amounts to AN ENTIRE ADDITIONAL CHARACTER'S MP to fuel their spells.  Or with experienced adventurers that could easily be a handful of such crystals.

But then, the follow-on to that was that I likewise disliked the MP vs MP to overcome the target, feeling that casting a hefty bladesharp wouldn't reasonably make an average person consequently more likely to be affected by an incoming spell, either.  (So we just use POW vs POW; and spells must be powered either by ones personal MP or entirely from a single crystal - no bridging.) 

Thanks

[simonh]

On 5/18/2018 at 10:29 PM, jajagappa said:

Maybe got to use that occupation in developing/selecting skills.  And maybe also has an "in" at her local temple. 🙂

I think it just grants skill bonuses and such that help you towards meeting the requirements for becoming a Priest. Yanioth has by far the highest Worship skill of any of the sample characters - about double that of most of them. She has the highest Cult Lore and equal highest Devotion to a god. She's also the only character that's sacrificed for an extra Rune point.I'd have thought all of those things would put her well on the path towards eventually becoming a Priestess and at least some of them may well be to do with her Apprentice Priestess status.

Simon Hibbs

[Mugen]

19 hours ago, styopa said:

You're right.  I guess I ruled a forgettably long time ago that was OP, handing characters what typically amounts to AN ENTIRE ADDITIONAL CHARACTER'S MP to fuel their spells.  Or with experienced adventurers that could easily be a handful of such crystals.

But then, the follow-on to that was that I likewise disliked the MP vs MP to overcome the target, feeling that casting a hefty bladesharp wouldn't reasonably make an average person consequently more likely to be affected by an incoming spell, either.  (So we just use POW vs POW; and spells must be powered either by ones personal MP or entirely from a single crystal - no bridging.) 

Thanks

I had the same feeling while looking at those numbers, and it is the main reason why I looked at RQ2, then Elder Secrets. For some reason, I thought D6 Crystals were the norm in Elder Secrets, and was surprised it was not.

Such crystals can be game-changers for characters specializing in any form of magic, especially Sorcerers.

[simonh]

Magic Point storage is pretty much a must-have asset for any character that casts magic, which is pretty much any character in RQ. The problem is if they're common enough for all or most characters to have one, why can't some characters have more? But that can be seriously unbalancing.

For crystals this isn't as much of an issue because you can only attune one crystal at a time, so its's self-limiting. Perhaps that could be extended to all MP storage sources, so you can only have a connection to one at a time? It seems a little artificial, but might do the job. We'd still need a mechanism along the lines of attunement to establish or shift the link.

Simon Hibbs

[styopa]

16 minutes ago, simonh said:

Magic Point storage is pretty much a must-have asset for any character that casts magic, which is pretty much any character in RQ. The problem is if they're common enough for all or most characters to have one, why can't some characters have more? But that can be seriously unbalancing.

For crystals this isn't as much of an issue because you can only attune one crystal at a time, so its's self-limiting. Perhaps that could be extended to all MP storage sources, so you can only have a connection to one at a time? It seems a little artificial, but might do the job. We'd still need a mechanism along the lines of attunement to establish or shift the link.

Simon Hibbs

As Mugen mentioned above, the mechanisms here are very sensitive to play balance particularly where "professional" spellcasters are concerned  - people whose primary reliance is on magical tools that burn MP to work.  Sorcerers are likely an issue, but we know pretty much nothing about how that mechanism even works.  Shamans - with the more functional role they're getting in RQG - would also be a concern.  A spell caster normally is going to have a MP source of ~12-15 MP.  Increase that by 60-100% with a fetch/allied spirit/POW spirit and you're starting to talk about well-ammunitioned casters.  Add ANOTHER 10-15 MP atop that with big MP crystals...

[Joerg]

5 hours ago, Mugen said:

I had the same feeling while looking at those numbers, and it is the main reason why I looked at RQ2, then Elder Secrets. For some reason, I thought D6 Crystals were the norm in Elder Secrets, and was surprised it was not.

Such crystals can be game-changers for characters specializing in any form of magic, especially Sorcerers.

They store about a day's worth of unused mana. As long as the magician does the re-filling all himself, this is a limited advantage in a fast pace scenario.

RQ3 did however provide POW spirits which would refuel such crystals, and that was something like a game-changer.

But then a shaman with a 20 POW fetch regenerates MP at immense speed, too, so there are other over-the-top ways available as well.

 

As far as I remember the RQ3 rules (Elder Secrets), only live crystals need attuning. Dead crystals (i.e. MP vessels) are usable without attuning. Besides, the RQ3 rules had a MP matrix enchantment which allowed you to spend some POW to create a "dead crystal"-like item without access to any blood of the gods. This enchantment or surplus dead crystals would be used in enchanted items like e.g. spell matrices.

Your average professional spellcaster will have about 15 MP at any time, and probably a somewhat higher MP maximum. (Human species maximum was 21, leaving some room for successful POW gain rolls even at POW 18, and RQ2 increased that POW maximum by a few points for Rune Levels.)

With some slight house-ruling of the previous experience rules, we managed to get one adept sorcerer in my non-Gloranthan RQ game. He had a rather weak familiar and no enchantments to speak of after half a year of regular gaming.

 

 

[g33k]

2 hours ago, simonh said:

... For crystals this isn't as much of an issue because you can only attune one crystal at a time, so its's self-limiting. Perhaps that could be extended to all MP storage sources, so you can only have a connection to one at a time? It seems a little artificial, but might do the job...

I actually find the opposite to be "artificial" -- the idea that of course you can have multiple POW/MP storage devices.

It renders them highly artificial and "technologically flavored" to my aesthetic, like batteries to be bought at the corner market.  Temp POW / MP aren't quite as central to a character as permanent POW, but they are directly linked; having multiple "devices" linked to one's permanent POW just "feels wrong" to me:  you have ONE soul.

OTOH, the idea feels like it might work well in a horrible fashion as a BBG's plot, creating magitech-enhanced Gloranthan versions of Shadowrun "Cyberzombies" with elements of Potter'verse "horcruxes."  Perhaps an unholy blend of Thanatari and GodLearner techniques...

I will look closely at the RQG RAW on this.

 

[Richard S.]

Just now, g33k said:

OTOH, the idea feels like it might work well in a horrible fashion as a BBG's plot, creating magitech-enhanced Gloranthan versions of Shadowrun "Cyberzombies" with elements of Potter'verse "horcruxes."  Perhaps an unholy blend of Thanatari and GodLearner techniques...

Zistor?

[g33k]

9 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

Zistor?

No, I was really thinking of pure-magic, not mecha-magic.  But magic that crossed the lines of safety and wisdom, leaving the user more a horrific victim than mightily-empowered.

Shadowrun Cyberzombies are terrifying foes in battle, but ultimately they are tragic victims of their enhancements; similarly, Voldemort's search for ultimate security via power led him, ultimately,  to complete insecurity and vulnerability (near the end of Rowling's 7th HP book, Harry has a "near-death experience" where he apparently speaks with the soul of departed Dumbledore... and whimpering in pain and terror nearby ("nearby," and thus also on the edge of death), is a horcrux-fragmented shard of Tom Riddle's soul).  It is this vibe of "something that is seemingly-reasonable that is taken tragically to an artificial and unreasonable extreme" that I was thinking of, rather than any trappings of tech. 

Imagine a mighty warrior in Glorantha; instead of tattoos the runes are scarified and branded into the flesh.  POW-storing and other crystals aplenty; but again:  not worn or wielded but magically embedded into the body.  Some sites of this surgical implantation are raw suppurating wounds; some are dead and rotting; some are cracked and burned; etc.  None heal, ever.  None are less than horrifically agonizing.

 

[Psullie]

I think pace has a lot to do with how useful/necessary storage crystals are in a game. As Joerg pointed out if you only have one major encounter per day then your PC's and rely on their own POW - but old school dungeon bashing will require back up MP's. With RQ2 and diminishing POW, crystals were also useful in that you drained an external source first, leaving your defences at max, this is less of an issue now. and as with any trinket, storage devices get lost, stolen or damaged, so players should learn not to rely on them

Interesting to see how common they are, and so far RQG is coming across as having far greater exposure to magic than RQ3 in terms of style and atmosphere. 

[styopa]

30 minutes ago, Psullie said:

I think pace has a lot to do with how useful/necessary storage crystals are in a game. As Joerg pointed out if you only have one major encounter per day then your PC's and rely on their own POW - but old school dungeon bashing will require back up MP's. With RQ2 and diminishing POW, crystals were also useful in that you drained an external source first, leaving your defences at max, this is less of an issue now. and as with any trinket, storage devices get lost, stolen or damaged, so players should learn not to rely on them

Interesting to see how common they are, and so far RQG is coming across as having far greater exposure to magic than RQ3 in terms of style and atmosphere. 

I do hope there's a fair bit more clarity on the whole iconic 'tatooing spells' thing.  After all these years I never quite got it. 

Is that so it doesn't occupy INT but you have to use your MP?  Is it an enchantment with its own MP?  If it's skinned off someone, is it gone (or is it more mythically engraved on a person's being)?  Could someone else use the skin?  What if it's on an arm that's lopped off?  Do you have to be able to see it?  Could it be covered up and thus unusable if you wore a longsleeve turtleneck?  Could one be on your back?  In your mouth?  Sole of your foot?  Tattoos fade, do these eventually go away?  How big do they have to be?  Does the person casting the spell somehow give the tattooist the spell to implant?  Is there a limit to how many tattoos one can have or where they can be?