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Joerg

The Trauma of the Dragonkill War

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3 hours ago, soltakss said:

Yes, but should that fear stretch into your children, grandchildren, greatgrandchildren and so on for centuries?

Not naturally, I'd say, but it could be a big curse or suchlike.

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4 hours ago, soltakss said:

Yes, but should that fear stretch into your children, grandchildren, greatgrandchildren and so on for centuries?

Honestly, if the Brown Dragon (or any comparable being) wants "Fear of Dragons" to be a common element of the psyche of humans in the region, then emphatically YES, it can/will... "should" doesn't enter the equation.  YGMV.

Remember:  the Curse of Kin is still active, and it was even older... and appears to have been more-actively HeroQuested in an effort to fix it.  And it was a dragon who stopped a comparable curse from harming the Dragonewts, so I expect dragons know something about curses!

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I had the impression that the dragonewt curse declared all humans as targets for active retaliation, possibly calling in a True Dragon (e.g. the Red Dragon). This, the dragonfire witnessed from afar, and the cross.ine and deathline, was sufficient to scare away any humans from either north or south for nearly 200 years, although Belintar and the Conquering Daughter created enough motivation for Colymar and Arim to test the curse, and to find it no longer active.

THe reason for this may have been the immigration of the survivors of Alavan Argay about 70 years earlier and their adoption by Ironhoof, setting another precedent to sidestep the curse. (The Tusk Riders declaring themselves as no longer human, the Kitori proving that by crossing in troll shape only, o the slaves of the Dwarf of Dwarf Mine who had retreated underground are other such cases, as is Delecti electing to stay as an undead and turning the lakes into the Upland Marsh.

Whateve the curse or threat of those two lines may have been, it remained broken after Colymar and Arim crossed the lines..Kero FIn welcomed back her human worshippers.

 

6 hours ago, g33k said:

Honestly, if the Brown Dragon (or any comparable being) wants "Fear of Dragons" to be a common element of the psyche of humans in the region, then emphatically YES, it can/will... "should" doesn't enter the equation.  YGMV.

That assumes the dragon cares, and is willing to have that entanglement with the world.

Yes, of course a True Dragon the size of a mountain range flying overhead is sufficient to cause a primal existential fear, even if that event doesn't cause any damage to anyone not participating in the dedication of the Reaching Moon temple. 

I still stand by my observation that the dragons and dragonewts have avoided harming the desendants of Kero Fin as a whole,. They will crack down on offenders and aggressors, and did block any return of those who failed to protect their nests against the Pelorian invaders, but I don't really see them responsible for slaying the remaining Orlanthi population in the Pass. There will have been collateral killings, like enslaved captives not yet carried off to Dara Happa or Carmania, but I repeat that the loss of home and lives was mainly due to the actions of the True Golden Horde even before the dragons arrived to protect the dragonewt nests.

The Orlanthi cities had been plundered already in the earlier raid of 1042 according to the Kumardros entry in Fortunate Succession:

Quote

The Emperor had heard that a great horde of gold, jewels, and magical crystals had been wrongly hidden from Pagadash the Conqueror in 112,042.

The name Pagadash doesn't appear elsewhere in the Fortunate Succession, but is similar in sound and structure to some the names in the Karvanyar dynasty. If Pagadash was a ruler, possibly the king of Saird, otherwise possibly a non-ruler member of that Dara Happan lineage.

 

The Hendriki history claims that Andrin the Conqueror had somehow conspired with dragonewts and trolls in the mass death of Draconic Thinkers, but I find that claim dubious. It is undoubtedly true that he took the opportunity to conquer the now leaderless tribes of eastern Kerofinela, and buoyed by that success and increase in manpower started the Adjustment Wars in Esrolia.

Jaldon's invasion between 1080 and 1090 would have weakened the eastern Dragon Pass tribes and clans considerably already - compare how Jaldon's raid prior to Derik's retaliation destroyed entire clans of the Quivini. After this, Hendriki engagement in the region ceased, and the clans were left to their own leaders like Baran. Then the True Golden Horde assembled - according to Fortunate Succession only after 1110, when Dara Happa made piece with Carmania and Saird. And another Praxian force came from the east, probably including Jaldon again.

Checking the Pavis history, Opili's long period of stability might be thanks to the Dragonkill disaster for the Praxians, leaving them little resources to fight the Pavisites.

 

6 hours ago, g33k said:

Remember:  the Curse of Kin is still active, and it was even older... and appears to have been more-actively HeroQuested in an effort to fix it.  And it was a dragon who stopped a comparable curse from harming the Dragonewts, so I expect dragons know something about curses!

The Curse of Kin was the result of a mutual breach of the Compromise, calling Godtime into the Surface World, and making the Black Eater susceptible to Change. None of the quests were in any such moment.

The dragonewt curse would have been much weaker than the direct interaction between Nysalor and the womb of the Dark Eater. 

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When I ran the Dragonrise occurring as a background event, I treated the appearance of the True Dragon more like something out of Call of Cthulhu. It caused temporary insanity - amnesia, hysterical fear, catatonia, etc., - among those who failed a POWx5 check. 

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I think one point to remember here is that the fear of the dragons is not just a collective trauma stemming from the Dragonkill but a religious prohibition on dealings with dragons. You know that interaction with dragons is bad, because the priests remind you every Windsday what happened when the people of Orlantland engaged in dubious draconic practices, split their tongues etc. Today, modern religions continue to create taboos for people around behavior that until the enlightenment few questioned and even post the enlightenment were sustained by the lack of modern communications. Why do we fear dragons? Because the priest tells us to? Why does this have an effect that causes people to quake, run, hide in terror? Because the priest told you about the terrible things that would happen to you if you consorted with dragons, and you are just an ordinary person, not a dragonbreaking hero of the Wind Temple.

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1 hour ago, Jeff said:

When I ran the Dragonrise occurring as a background event, I treated the appearance of the True Dragon more like something out of Call of Cthulhu. It caused temporary insanity - amnesia, hysterical fear, catatonia, etc., - among those who failed a POWx5 check. 

The Sun Domers were so spooked and terrified, despite the newtlings being their erstwhile allies, in fear they went slaughtered every living thing they could find at Five Eyes Temple.

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4 minutes ago, Ian Cooper said:

I think one point to remember here is that the fear of the dragons is not just a collective trauma stemming from the Dragonkill but a religious prohibition on dealings with dragons.

But Ingolf Dragonfriend still is an acknowledged Orlanthi hero (unlike other Third Council seats, though - nobody seems to remember (Isgang)Drang fondly).

Alakoring Dragonbreaker taught the evil of consorting with dragons, but he himself never made it through Dragon Pass. His cult of Orlanth Rex somehow did, but possibly through contact with Ralios or Tarsh rather than prior to the Inhuman Occupation.

History of the Heortling Peoples has a short window for northern east Dragon Pass under "evil foreign rule" (p.89, Baran's independent reign after Jaldon's invasion, which would have started around 1090). Judging from Baran's trades with Isidilian, it is likely that Isidilian's human survivors were the few free remnants of Baran's people after the Golden Horde had come over them, and that they had fled underground already when the dragons started killing the invaders.

 

4 minutes ago, Ian Cooper said:

You know that interaction with dragons is bad, because the priests remind you every Windsday what happened when the people of Orlantland engaged in dubious draconic practices, split their tongues etc.

Would these benighted priests even know about such details?

The priesthood of Kero Fin preaches the cooperation with dragonewts and dragonkind, to the extent that Arim's Kingdom (or any of its successors) and the dragonewt city across Dunstop never had any significant troubles.

Bad King Urgrain probably pops up as a cautionary tale ten times more often than Orlanth Dragonfriend and Drolgard. There are other local bogeymen, like the Ghoul King, too.

 

4 minutes ago, Ian Cooper said:

Today, modern religions continue to create taboos for people around behavior that until the enlightenment few questioned and even post the enlightenment were sustained by the lack of modern communications.

There is a pattern of what is taboo to the Orlanthi, and it usually can be summarized that so-and-so is chaotic: Rape, Kinstrife, Injustice, Undeath... Nobody ever accused dragons or dragonewts as chaotic. Dragonewts stood with the Heortlings in the Battle of Night and Day, and while they were enslaved by Palangio, so were the Heortlings. The insidious chaos of Gbaji, reborn in the Lunar Empire, is the main theme in the priestly rants of occupied Heortlings.

 

4 minutes ago, Ian Cooper said:

Why do we fear dragons? Because the priest tells us to?

Sorry, but this doesn't gel with the maxim that theism - especially the Orlanthi brand of it - gels with "be like your deity". With Orlanth slaying Sh'har'karzeel and Aroka, a firm and confident stance versus dragons is part of their divine identity. If Alakoring's kingship and dragonbreaking are the norm for tribes, again a confident or at least resolved stance vs. dragons is mandated.

The cautionary tale is not to trust the dragons or their ways. It isn't to cower in abject fear.

 

The Sun Domers of Prax mentioned by MOB (who unlike the Heortlings have a very good reason to be afraid of dragons, given their role in the Dragonkill and its repercussions even at home) act very like Orlanthi in their madness - they go into a rage which is directed against the nearest somewhat similar target.

Not that it really matters... any bachelor newtling community will reform after half a generation, and quite likely even retain its lore and local culture as related to the near-bachelor tadpoles by the adults, if the newtling migration patterns resemble real world amphibian wanderings in any way. The memory of that location's survival conditions will only die out if two or three successive populations have been taken out of their reproductive cycle.

 

4 minutes ago, Ian Cooper said:

Why does this have an effect that causes people to quake, run, hide in terror? Because the priest told you about the terrible things that would happen to you if you consorted with dragons, and you are just an ordinary person, not a dragonbreaking hero of the Wind Temple.

I disagree heartily. Even Barntar, the Heortling Everyman, goes out on a dragonslaying quest to liberate the fertile rains from Daga.

Facing a True Dragon means facing the impossible - it is a confrontation not dissimilar from the Eastern Liberation Bolt, or an occlusion result on a Riddle confrontation. I am fine with such a personal confrontation cementing an abject fear of dragons which needs to be overcome in a major way for future interactions with dragons, a flaw that gains a mastery or two that need to be bought down, or suffered for the rest of a person's existence. The impact will be lessened by distance, as the impossible merely becomes improbable with distance masking the true size of the event.

I don't think that the WInd Temple mystics would necessarily have Alakoring's dragonbreaking powers. Other than Elmalandti, they seem to be really ancient, and possibly date from even before the God Learner arrival. (This doesn't keep them from being able to access Orlanth's victory over Sh'har'karzeel, however.)

The entire malady of the Old Day Traditionalists plays out in southern Peloria, in the south (at least Kethaela) the traditionalists and the dragonspeakers carefully kept apart. The Kingdom of Night probably was happy to receive support from the dragonspeakers and later the Third Council against the God Learners, both in Kotor and against the Machine City. The Hendriki managed to sit on the edge of both empires in their forests maintaining their freedom. I am not quite clear whether or how much they cooperated with the Kitori, who also remained free of both empires, at least after the fall of Lylket.

Esrolia, and in particular Nochet, appears to have been the home of Vistikos Left-eye and must have been instrumental in providing early dragonspeaker philosophy before it became an ecstatic experience. Later on, the God Learners influenced the knowledge temple(s?) of the city. 

 

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8 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I disagree heartily. Even Barntar, the Heortling Everyman, goes out on a dragonslaying quest to liberate the fertile rains from Daga.

Everyman's draconic encounters (i.e. the survivable kind, for most of us) may be at the root of the dream / True taxonomy that's rarely investigated. It's not hard to imagine scenarios where some dragons were subjected (or submitted themselves) to a version of modern Malkionite demonization and became nothing more than "dreams." This may even be central to Pelorian dragonslayer cults. It's worth thinking about. After all, the West seems to have eliminated overt dragon Truth roughly as well as the North, pockets like Ormsland notwithstanding. With the right charms and mental preparation today, even a Barntar can screw his eyes shut and do what needs to be done.

The West never seems to have learned Fear Dragon, as it happens. They weren't there in the Dream or, to say it slightly differently, their doom was elsewhere.

On the other hand dream dragons may be ubiquitous in the East where they pay attention to dreams and dragons almost interchangeably. "No blame."

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1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

Everyman's draconic encounters (i.e. the survivable kind, for most of us) may be at the root of the dream / True taxonomy that's rarely investigated. It's not hard to imagine scenarios where some dragons were subjected (or submitted themselves) to a version of modern Malkionite demonization and became nothing more than "dreams." This may even be central to Pelorian dragonslayer cults. It's worth thinking about. After all, the West seems to have eliminated overt dragon Truth roughly as well as the North, pockets like Ormsland notwithstanding. With the right charms and mental preparation today, even a Barntar can screw his eyes shut and do what needs to be done.

The West never seems to have learned Fear Dragon, as it happens. They weren't there in the Dream or, to say it slightly differently, their doom was elsewhere.

On the other hand dream dragons may be ubiquitous in the East where they pay attention to dreams and dragons almost interchangeably. "No blame."

"Nothing more like dreams" is pretty ironic if you think about the power of the dragon dreams. The Iradgenderi (temporal aka illusionary reality, known in the East from the earliest era, and mustering in great strength under Avanapdur) lack a connection to the Ultimate. True Dragons have a direct link to it, and their dream manifestations draw upon that link while the dragons perform it.

Because a transfer from the Ultimate is involved, this is a form of magic.

Human dreams aren't well defined in Glorantha. I doubt that they are anything like the garbage-collection (from programming jargon) of the mind like they are in our world. They may be some interaction of the unconscious self with the Otherworld, occasionally drawing a bit of the conscious self along (which is when dreams receive meaning and become memorable). Maybe it is the Spirit World, maybe it is something else, maybe it is a short world (no idea how much this concept still is used in current canon) with rules of its own and no connection to the Ultimate (unlike the Spirit World).

But the EWF demonstrated that human dreams, even of non-draconic speakers, could interact with the dragon dream. But then that dream was dissipated when the draconic speakers were removed from the Middle World (regardless whether it was simple assassination or utuma).

A single human person's dream doesn't matter much if at all against the mighty dreams of a dragon. A uniformity of dreaming, possibly reinforced through the holy stories of Orlanth and Barntar as dragonslayers, might be an entirely different proposition.

But then, a nightmare of dragonfire removing all traces of humans from Dragon Pass is a mighty dream meme to counter, too, even if the objective reality is that the dragonfire saved all those southern Heortlings and the Hendriki kingdom from the True Golden Horde (which would otherwise have plundered Nochet and probably Ezel, too).

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3 hours ago, Joerg said:

I don't think that the WInd Temple mystics would necessarily have Alakoring's dragonbreaking powers. Other than Elmalandti, they seem to be really ancient, and possibly date from even before the God Learner arrival. (This doesn't keep them from being able to access Orlanth's victory over Sh'har'karzeel, however.)

Sartar Companion p.184

"To learn the Dragonbreaking power, the heroes must pilgrimage to Old Wind Temple...At Old Wind Temple at least one of the heroes must beseech the Stormwalkers to accept him as a
student.  After a full season of service to the Stormwalkers, the hero awakens Orlanth’s Dragonbreaking power within him (see page 74)."

Choices listed include Elmalandti and Heavy with Weight

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3 hours ago, Joerg said:

The priesthood of Kero Fin preaches the cooperation with dragonewts and dragonkind, to the extent that Arim's Kingdom (or any of its successors) and the dragonewt city across Dunstop never had any significant troubles.

Do you have a source for this?

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2 minutes ago, Ian Cooper said:

Do you have a source for this?

Looks like I misremembered the sequence, but take a look at Arim's encounters after he crosses the Deathline - all the major creatures that are there in the lands of Kerofinela are included.

KoS p.97res

Quote

Arim first met Henereel, a centaur, and aided her. Sometime later he met Benst Beel, a Grazer warrior. He made peace with a dragon (or perhaps just a dragonewt). At last, at the foot of Mount Kero Fin, he found Sorana Tor the Priestess.

Also consider the Inhuman King as arbitrator to institute Kingship of Dragon Pass.

Kero Fin was born when Larnste made a rest planting the Rockwood Mountains, conferring with the dragons. And her lands are the Dragon Pass. Orlanth sort of mucked it up when he slew Sh'har'karzeel (I hope I get the spelling and the apostrophs right).

Orlanth was a dragonbreaker long before Alakoring, and the dragonfighting magics are manifold. The Vadrus way which first overcame Enkoshons is the way used in the Daga quests by both Orlanth and Barntar, involving a klanth and a bag of winds. The fight to prevent the cosmic dragon from taking away his mother was some other magic. I have no idea what way Alakoring used or found, possibly a third way.

And as for non-Orlanthi Godtime dragonslayers, there is Waertag.

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1 hour ago, Ian Cooper said:

Sartar Companion p.184

"To learn the Dragonbreaking power, the heroes must pilgrimage to Old Wind Temple...At Old Wind Temple at least one of the heroes must beseech the Stormwalkers to accept him as a
student.  After a full season of service to the Stormwalkers, the hero awakens Orlanth’s Dragonbreaking power within him (see page 74)."

Choices listed include Elmalandti and Heavy with Weight

Sorry for being nitpicky here, but in my version of the Sartar Companion it is p. 194 ... 😉

By the way: Are "Heavy With Weight" and "Weighty Breath" the same person?

 

Edited by Oracle

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11 hours ago, Joerg said:

I don't think that the WInd Temple mystics would necessarily have Alakoring's dragonbreaking powers.

They certainly have Dragonbreaking powers - why would we assume that there are two entirely separate sets of Orlanthi Dragonbreaking powers? I think Alakoring simply knew and taught the same powers based on the Sh'harkazeel myth. 

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It seems entirely plausible to me that the cultural trauma from events like the Dragonkill is going to persist longer in a culture in which your dead ancestors turn up on a semi-regular (at least annually) basis. 

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2 hours ago, davecake said:

They certainly have Dragonbreaking powers - why would we assume that there are two entirely separate sets of Orlanthi Dragonbreaking powers? I think Alakoring simply knew and taught the same powers based on the Sh'harkazeel myth. 

Yes and no - the Sh'harkazeel myth also gives Orlanth the name Master of the Dragon Power. Heortling Mythology has a few versions of this myth. Alakoring being from Ralios and having no special connection to Kero Fin might have used yet another myth. Besides Sh'hakarzeel and Aroka, there is also Blackorm of Conquest Mountain (now Cragspider's home) and Femman (whose myth I cannot find) just for the Kerofinelan region. There may have been others for Ralios.

One version makes Sh'harkazeel a dragon living in or near Kero Fin, the other version has him descending from the heavens, possibly identifying him with the dragon that followed Orlanth out of the Strangers Place and to the palace of the Stagnant Emperor. I seem to recall a version where the dragon was claiming Kero Fin as its mate, with Orlanth objecting on behalf of (though probably without asking) his mother.

Alakoring's myth most likely was based on the Top of the World rather than Mt Kerofin, and there is a possibility that Ormsland may have some similar form of draconic fallout as the Kerospine Hills, since forgotten.

Looking at the history of the fall of the EWF, there is hardly any chance for Alakoring's cult to make it across the Dragonspine, if at all. I would be interested when his Rex cult became so fully acknowledged among the Quivini - possibly under the influence of Arim's Kingdom? And if that is the case, what is going on in Heortland and rural Esrolia/Maniria?

Maniria obviously has contact with Safelster, but that region hasn't been Orlanthi since the Autarchy.

 

Alakoring wasn't the only dragonslayer that emerged against the EWF, the Carmanians found their own way, too - possibly inherited from the blue boatmen of the Poralistor with their Waertagi ancestry.

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3 hours ago, davecake said:

It seems entirely plausible to me that the cultural trauma from events like the Dragonkill is going to persist longer in a culture in which your dead ancestors turn up on a semi-regular (at least annually) basis. 

Sort of... but that really plays into my perception that the Heortlings did not suffer that many deaths from the Dragonkill. History of the Heortling Peoples tells clearly that the Hendriki king of the Adjusted Lands sent forces to fight the advancing True Golden Horde, and elsewhere the Only Old One is named to have sent forces - i.e. trolls, trollkin and/or Kitori, to aid the dragonewts.

IMO the dragons converged on Dragon Pass after these forces had been defeated and all but annihilated by the True Golden Horde. They had been true to their ancient alliance, but still failed to contain the fury of the Pelorians.

It is quite likely that the Manirian Heortlings had ancestors in this force. And they would have a tale to tell. But none of destruction by the dragons.

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2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Yes and no - the Sh'harkazeel myth also gives Orlanth the name Master of the Dragon Power.

Yes. You have subtle variations on the myth, where it can be used either as a simple way to defeat dragons, or as a way for dragons to offer you their power and insight through utuma, or similar (which the dragon may not even be that upset by, in mysterious dragon style)

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Heortling Mythology has a few versions of this myth.

Yes. Of course big important cultural myths often work that way in Glorantha. 

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Alakoring's myth most likely was based on the Top of the World rather than Mt Kerofin, 

Sounds plausible.  Bit important mythic patterns also often repeat. 

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Looking at the history of the fall of the EWF, there is hardly any chance for Alakoring's cult to make it across the Dragonspine, if at all.

I think of it is a deliberate heroic act, rather than a natural cultural drift. That is, a small organised group, possibly including Alakoring himself or his close associates, deliberately spread knowledge of the cult, rites and heroquests, into Kerofinela, with the assistance of traditionalist forces, and with a deliberate agenda of political opposition to the priest led EWF. Once established, it spread readily, because it was highly effective at exactly the political goals it was designed to achieve. 

 

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Alakoring wasn't the only dragonslayer that emerged against the EWF,

Absolutely, but he was the major Orlanthi one, and perhaps the most effective of all dragonslayers. 

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6 hours ago, davecake said:

Looking at the history of the fall of the EWF, there is hardly any chance for Alakoring's cult to make it across the Dragonspine, if at all.

I think of it is a deliberate heroic act, rather than a natural cultural drift. That is, a small organised group, possibly including Alakoring himself or his close associates, deliberately spread knowledge of the cult, rites and heroquests, into Kerofinela, with the assistance of traditionalist forces, and with a deliberate agenda of political opposition to the priest led EWF. Once established, it spread readily, because it was highly effective at exactly the political goals it was designed to achieve. 

I might agree with that if reforming Orlanthi kingship rites had been on the top of Alakoring's agenda, but I think that his primary goal was to crush the stranglehold of the EWF on the cult of Orlanth and the Orlanthi. It is Alakoring Dragonbreaker, not Alakoring Kingmaker.

I think the same goes for his companions - they would be dragonslayers first, and missionaries a distant third.

Alakoring died in 940, leaving a whole century of draconic speakers in power in Kerofinela, with little chance for his Rex subcult of Orlanth to gain traction anywhere in the draconic lands. Afterwards, the Sairdites spearheaded the conquest of the remnants of the EWF from the north, with the Old Day Traditionalist in southwestern Peloria coming as conquerors rather than liberators, too. The former "oppressors", the dragonspeakers, had been kin of the folk left behind. The newly arrived traditionalists may have been Orlanthi, but not kin, and these folk didn't need to be taught to be who they were, thank you very much, now leave.

I don't see the Alakoring converts who had been liberated from non-kinfolk dragonspeakers as proselytizers, either - first and foremost, these folk would have liked to get even, just like all the other folk participating in the True Golden Horde, and get some of the tribute back.

 

If you had to list the most important dragonslayers fighting the EWF:

Survilstar ("Sir Vilistur") of Carmania, who proved that it was possible for mere human heroes to slay dragons

Karvanyar, who slew the Golden Dragon Emperor of Dara Happa

Alakoring, who drove the EWF out of western Ralios and Peloria

 

In the south, the EWF and the traditionalist Orlanthi of Heortland cooperated to overthrow the Clanking City. While there weren't any draconic participants in the ten year siege, the Aramite Living Hero drew on Third Council magical support for his heroic status.

But then Alakoring may have been diametrically opposed to the means that made Renvald Meldekbane a Living Hero, because that kind of support was more or less identical to the infrastructure built by the Third Council outside of its core lands. If Renvald hadn't fallen to dwarf treachery, he might have faced off with Alakoring defending his southern kin.

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This discussion makes me wonder to what extent Dragons are held to the Compromise at all.

Furthermore, the relation of Dragons to runes. Perhaps the Dragon rune is more of a courtesy appointment?

What I'm getting at, much of what we use to structure the world are constructs due to Man rune holders. But the relation of Dragons to this is somewhat unclear to me. What do the sages of Lhankor Mhy say?

(Also let me add that the Compromise was an unworkable kludge, as we have seen by the repeated enormous reality-rending disasters after it. If only they had listened to the God Learners ... but perhaps that's for another day.)

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2 hours ago, The God Learner said:

This discussion makes me wonder to what extent Dragons are held to the Compromise at all.

Furthermore, the relation of Dragons to runes. Perhaps the Dragon rune is more of a courtesy appointment?

What I'm getting at, much of what we use to structure the world are constructs due to Man rune holders. But the relation of Dragons to this is somewhat unclear to me. What do the sages of Lhankor Mhy say?

(Also let me add that the Compromise was an unworkable kludge, as we have seen by the repeated enormous reality-rending disasters after it. If only they had listened to the God Learners ... but perhaps that's for another day.)

As far as I know the dragon's aren't held by the compromise at all, and are much of the time the best representation we have of gods walking the mortal world.

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1 hour ago, The God Learner said:

This discussion makes me wonder to what extent Dragons are held to the Compromise at all.

Not at all. But then they aren't involved in ongoing Creation, other than their dreams and their procreation, either. Their dreams create temporary reality, and their bodies warp reality.

The dragonewts did participate in the Surface World side of ending the Greater Darkness, like the Unity Battle and I Fought We Won, but there don't appear to be any dragons involved in the Ritual of the Net, hence no reason to acknowledge the Compromise.

1 hour ago, The God Learner said:

Furthermore, the relation of Dragons to runes. Perhaps the Dragon rune is more of a courtesy appointment?

Individual dragons have powers that are associated with core runes, e.g. elements. Krisa Yar, the Red Dragon of Dragon Pass, is associated with Fire, the Green Dragon with Earth, the Black Dragon with Darkness, and the Brown Dragon with Storm. The Water part may have died with Aroka, or have been inherited by the Inhuman King if you need five elements tied to the dragons. Moon -> Chaos -> the Hydra.

1 hour ago, The God Learner said:

What I'm getting at, much of what we use to structure the world are constructs due to Man rune holders. But the relation of Dragons to this is somewhat unclear to me. What do the sages of Lhankor Mhy say?

The sages of Lhankor Mhy mainly collect documents. Interpreting these enters the realm of speculation rather than knowledge.

EWF era sages were frustrated by the effects of the draconic dream. Statements of utter clarity inside the dream became meaningless sophisms or riddles when re-visited outside of the draconic influence. The draconic mystics didn't leave much in the way of philosophical documents. Draconic advancement came through expieriences, not through learning.

 

1 hour ago, The God Learner said:

(Also let me add that the Compromise was an unworkable kludge, as we have seen by the repeated enormous reality-rending disasters after it. If only they had listened to the God Learners ... but perhaps that's for another day.)

Zzabur claims credit (and necessity) for many of the reality-breaking disasters both before and after Time, and blames a few that befell his Godtime allies on entities like Walindum or the Vadeli. All that anthropomorphizing of runic powers is a mistake in his book, the effect of which coincides with the Compromise promise that the gods would refrain from meddling with the Inner World without intercession through the cults.

Which God Learners do you refer to, anyway? The fanatic Malkioni monotheists who re-defined their philosophy and cleansed it from uncomfortable influences, or the manipulators of non-Malkioni magic and cults with sorcery and heroquesting? I suppose the latter, but those guys became targets of the Malkioni orthodoxy later in the game as much as of all the non-Malkioni they had manipulated and exploited.

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9 hours ago, The God Learner said:

This discussion makes me wonder to what extent Dragons are held to the Compromise at all.

Furthermore, the relation of Dragons to runes. Perhaps the Dragon rune is more of a courtesy appointment?

What I'm getting at, much of what we use to structure the world are constructs due to Man rune holders. But the relation of Dragons to this is somewhat unclear to me. What do the sages of Lhankor Mhy say?

(Also let me add that the Compromise was an unworkable kludge, as we have seen by the repeated enormous reality-rending disasters after it. If only they had listened to the God Learners ... but perhaps that's for another day.)

True Dragons seem to be demigod equivalents and not that unusual besides being a numerous race of demigods living in the lands of the mortals and being especially hard to kill because of some of their powers.

Ancestral Dragons are probably the "gods" and are not there and active anymore (even living in the God World).

My understanding of the Great Compromise is that is it really a constant of Glorantha and affect anyone above some thresholds of power, making them more and more static and bound to what they are mythically.

Edited by Tarumath
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6 hours ago, Joerg said:

The dragonewts did participate in the Surface World side of ending the Greater Darkness, like the Unity Battle and I Fought We Won, but there don't appear to be any dragons involved in the Ritual of the Net, hence no reason to acknowledge the Compromise.

Great, this was my understanding too but I wasn't sure. 

 

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

Which God Learners do you refer to, anyway? The fanatic Malkioni monotheists who re-defined their philosophy and cleansed it from uncomfortable influences, or the manipulators of non-Malkioni magic and cults with sorcery and heroquesting? I suppose the latter, but those guys became targets of the Malkioni orthodoxy later in the game as much as of all the non-Malkioni they had manipulated and exploited.

Oh you should hear old Zzabur go on sometime, even if he has ascended far above our petty departmental squabbles by now. He's quite stubborn and still insists on mislaying Brithos on purpose. As for the rest of it, we were of course a bit scattered and decimated by what happened.

Anyway, we were and still are misunderstood. 

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12 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Water part may have died with Aroka, or have been inherited by the Inhuman King if you need five elements tied to the dragons.

It's Thrunhin Da, and she's off in the Sea of Fog.  

Of course, the future Great Flood may in fact be a ritual to raise the Blue Dragon by connecting the Creek-Stream River with the Oslir. 

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