Dark Glorantha

[Tigerwomble]

It's been said that difference between British fantasy and American fantasy,
is that the British tend towards grittier, darker and less hopeful endeavours.
Whilst Americans tend to cling to the 'hopeful frontier' trope. That John Wayne will
overcome and that the cavalry is just over the hill. Of course Cthulhu is the
exception, but that's the Elder Gods for you.

Even with the end of the world in sight, Glorantha is essentially quite a hopeful
setting. The Sartarites are a robust, life afirming people, who are gregarious and
passionate even whilst under the Lunar kosh.

Compare it to something like the Warhammer setting. which lurches
from one grim age to another, arriving eventually at a time 40,000 years in the future
where things have gotten no better. The grimmness simply never lets up.

I'm British and I love grim, grit and hopelessness in my games. Which is why everything
i've ever run, from classic fantasy to science fiction has had a little bit of Cthulhu thrown
in for grim measure.

One of my go to films when thinking of Glorantha in terms of feel, is Valhalla Rising
(which if you haven't seen is worth a look) and is precisely what I try to present.
I think it's still raining 30 minutes into the film and features a bleak, hard fought journey
fraught with environmental, physical, mental and spiritual turmoil that tests the resolve
of the protaganist. If ever there was a depiction of a Heroquest, this one stands out.

So, can a darker Glorantha be presented without harming the essential character of the game?

[Mankcam]

Well those analogies are very broad, and well..incorrect

Yeah they work in the fact that D&D is from USA and very shiny, whereas Warhammer is from the UK and very 'muddy'. But that's about it.

Tolkien was a Brit, and Lord of the RIngs is pretty hopeful and shiny. Perhaps the main famous fantasy novelist ever. Same goes for Lewis's Narnia (if not a bit childlike).So two big Brit names not involved in the dark grime and mud. And not all American stuff is John Wayne. George R.R.Martin is an American, and A Song of Fire and Ice gets very mature and dark at times. Frank Herbert was almost just as dark, and he was an american sci fi/fantasy author. Also Howard's CONAN series was just as much about a rogue-almost antihero. 

[David Scott]

 

38 minutes ago, Tigerwomble said:

Even with the end of the world in sight, Glorantha is essentially quite a hopeful setting.

I think it’s more naive than hopeful. Glorantha has been trapped in a tiny bubble of time for 40 years (1610-1621) a time of occupation and stagnation. Soon all we know will be washed away as Magasta’s Pool blocks and Sartar is washed away. The epic war against the empire will kill millions and physically change the world. Afterwards, maybe a better society will appear, but much as Norse Ragnarock, a different world will be there. Lord of the rings has the same story, the time of men is coming and the elder races will disappear. I watched the two towers last night, although there’s hope, it’s still a hard fought war. 

[Mankcam]

Depending upon what you want, Glorantha can easily be presented in a much darker sense than core books suggest. I tend to watch HBO ROME to get in the flavour, it really drives that ancient vibe home. Laws were harsh in ancient times, and daily life was a struggle, especially outside of the cities. City life could be a hassle as well, such as not walking at night in certain regions

You can easily add weird and unusual (sometimes confronting) parts to temple rituals and rites, as well as sometimes harsh initiation challenges etc. Gaining new spells should have things like this as well, in addition to base POW cost etc. 

The Elder Races are quite disturbing, as they are very alien to humankind. The Uz are the closest, and they fill the bill as Orc and Hobgoblin stand-ins. The Mostali are very mysterious and regimental, they have an oddness to them that is nothing like D&D or classic fantasy Dwarves. The Aldryami are also very alien, basically they are intelligent plant-life that takes a humanoid form. So the alieness of The Elder Races works well as an oddness to the setting. I like to present these differences in a slightly unsettling fashion, otherwise it could easily become very 'gonzo' with Elder Races. 

The villains can be very dark. Broos spring to mind - raping anything they can and spreading their seed, filth, and terror everywhere for no other reasons that they are creatures of Chaos. The Thanatri Cultists are also very dark and odd, with their gruesome head-collecting magics and such. Between Broos and Thanatri you can easily come up with a disturbing game.

Edited May 30, 2018 by Mankcam

[Tigerwomble]

1 hour ago, Mankcam said:

Well those analogies are very broad, and well..incorrect

Yeah they work in the fact that D&D is from USA and very shiny, whereas Warhammer is from the UK and very 'muddy'. But that's about it.

Tolkien was a Brit, and Lord of the RIngs is pretty hopeful and shiny. Perhaps the main famous fantasy novelist ever. Same goes for Lewis's Narnia (if not a bit childlike).So two big Brit names not involved in the dark grime and mud. And not all American stuff is John Wayne. George R.R.Martin is an American, and A Song of Fire and Ice gets very mature and dark at times. Frank Herbert was almost just as dark, and he was an american sci fi/fantasy author. Also Howard's CONAN series was just as much about a rogue-almost antihero. 

It's largely a matter of perspective. So the notion of right and wrong or 'incorrect' is a bit strong. I was speaking broadly to set a context for the question, rather than to make a definite statement.

I do mention a film and film tropes, but I was talking more about RPG's than books and films. Although I still think that there is an optimism in presented American culture that isn't so apparent in presented British culture.

[Grievous]

I'm not sure I would call Glorantha a light, hopeful, joyous setting in the classic sense. Sure, it does have those moments too, but I do view it as containing plenty of shades of grey and outright darkness. It is, to me at least, also a very psychedelic setting and in that way can go from bright beauty into mind-numbing terror, or from complex intellectualism into pure absurdity, from religious ecstasy into existential agony, and back again, pretty quickly. 

Looking at the Orlanthi, sure, you can view them as "a robust, life afirming people, who are gregarious and
passionate even whilst under the Lunar kosh", but they are also hide-bound, violent, and xenophobic. They appear one thing one moment, and something else a few moments later and they are in one way one of the more conservative parts of the setting. The Lunars take that to a whole new level and indeed I've been meaning to write something about a more psychedelic way of looking at that culture and their Red Goddess, which makes them out to be very beautiful and very terrifying at the same time.

I think there's plenty of depth in Glorantha for a gaming group to twist the dials in either (or another) direction, I feel. A more light-hearted game can easily be had, just as a much darker, grittier story can be told, while preserving the essential integrity of the setting.

Edited May 29, 2018 by Grievous

[Tigerwomble]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

 

I think it’s more naive than hopeful. Glorantha has been trapped in a tiny bubble of time for 40 years (1610-1621) a time of occupation and stagnation. Soon all we know will be washed away as Magasta’s Pool blocks and Sartar is washed away. The epic war against the empire will kill millions and physically change the world. Afterwards, maybe a better society will appear, but much as Norse Ragnarock, a different world will be there. Lord of the rings has the same story, the time of men is coming and the elder races will disappear. I watched the two towers last night, although there’s hope, it’s still a hard fought war. 

I like the distinction between hopeful and naive. It's one I hadn't considered.

What i'm getting at is how the story is presented, which is either the situation is 'the glass half full' (American) and 'the glass is half empty' (British). The story and outcome may be the same, but it's not what we do, but how we do it.

[Tigerwomble]

3 minutes ago, Grievous said:

I'm not sure I would call Glorantha a light, hopeful, joyous setting in the classic sense. Sure, it does have those moments too, but I do view it as containing plenty of shades of grey and outright darkness. It is, to me at least, also a very psychedelic setting and in that way can go from bright beauty into mind-numbing terror, or from complex intellectualism into pure absurdity, from religious ecstasy into existential agony, and back again, pretty quickly. 

Looking at the Orlanthi, sure, you can view them as "a robust, life afirming people, who are gregarious and
passionate even whilst under the Lunar kosh", but they are also hide-bound, violent, and xenophobic. They appear one thing one moment, and something else a few moments later and they are in one way one of the more conservative parts of the setting. The Lunars take that to a whole new level and indeed I've been meaning to write something about a more psychedelic way of looking at that culture and their Red Goddess, which makes them out to be very beautiful and very terrifying at the same time.

I think there's plenty of depth in Glorantha for a gaming group to twist the dials in either (or other) direction, I feel. A more light-hearted game can easily be had, just as a much darker, grittier story can be told, while preserving the essential integrity of the setting.

I agree entirely with what you say. I suppose i've never played a Glorantha game that has pushed the boundaries of Sartarite xenophobia and intense violence. I'm also unsure how far that can be pushed before the setting starts breaking down. Some settings are designed to be dark, bleak and violent and have the structures in place to cope with the kinds of extremes that might be indulged by players.

Also isn't behaviour that it too 'dark' in Sartarite society perceived as inspired by chaos.

[Tigerwomble]

1 hour ago, Mankcam said:

Glorantha can easily be presented in a much darker sense than core books suggeest. I tend to watch HBO ROME to get in the flavour, it really drives that ancient vibe home. Laws were harsh in ancient times, and daily life was a struggle, especially outside of the cities. City life could be a hassle as well, such as not walking at night in certain reg

You can easily add weird and usual (sometimes confronting) parts to temple rituals and rites, as well as sometimes harsh initiation challenges etc. Gaining new spells should have things like this as well, in addition to base POW cost etc. 

The Elder Races are quite disturbing, as they are very alien to humankind. The Uz are the closest, and they fill the bill as Orc and Hobgoblin stand-ins. The Mostali are very mysterious and regimental, they have an oddness to them that is nothing like D&D or classic fantasy Dwarves. The Aldryami are also very alien, basically they are intelligent plant-life that takes a humanoid form. So the alieness of The Elder Races works well as an oddness to the setting. I like to present these differences in a slightly unsettling fashion, otherwise it could easily become very 'gonzo' with Elder Races. 

The villains can be very dark. Broos spring to mind - raping anything they can and spreading their seed, filth, and terror everywhere for no other reasons that they are creatures of Chaos. The Thanatri Cultists are also very dark and odd, with their gruesome head-collecting magics and such. Between Broos and Thanatri you can easily come up with a disturbing game.

One of the boons of Glorantha is how the Elves and Dwarves etc. are presented as entirely alien. Something that the likes of D&D fail to do, which just presents them as slightly different humans, but with the same psychology and expectations. This presents quite a challenge to anyone whose expecting their Gloranthan Elf to essentially be a good looking, agile female whose good with a bow.

[styopa]

19 minutes ago, Tigerwomble said:

One of the boons of Glorantha is how the Elves and Dwarves etc. are presented as entirely alien. Something that the likes of D&D fail to do, which just presents them as slightly different humans, but with the same psychology and expectations. This presents quite a challenge to anyone whose expecting their Gloranthan Elf to essentially be a good looking, agile female whose good with a bow.

It's a big point.  D&D elves and other nonhumans are little more than people with masks on.  They still have completely human motivations etc.

Gloranthan elves and dwarves I tend to run as more than a little menacing, alien creatures (much closer to Norse and old Celtic norms of the Fae).  Trolls are easily presented as voracious, but it seems in particular with our background in Tolkien, the 'darkness' of elves can be particularly jarring for players new to the setting.

[tedopon]

I'm an American. 

I like both.

The main reason I like Glorantha over any other canned setting is it owns absurdity and while it vacillates between serious contextualization and giggly handwaving it creates a third avenue that isn't on the 'gritty' or 'hopeful' axis. 

Glorantha is the ultimate Kitchen Sink of campaign settings for me. I don't tend to run gritty or high fantasy as a theme. I am more interested in laughing when I game. Epic Struggle doesn't interest me nearly as much as what the duck will do when he sees the Legate's private bath, or why the giant is _really_ interested in trollball.

The genius of the setting is it can accommodate so many styles and still work.

[Tigerwomble]

8 minutes ago, tedopon said:

I'm an American. 

I like both.

The main reason I like Glorantha over any other canned setting is it owns absurdity and while it vacillates between serious contextualization and giggly handwaving it creates a third avenue that isn't on the 'gritty' or 'hopeful' axis. 

Glorantha is the ultimate Kitchen Sink of campaign settings for me. I don't tend to run gritty or high fantasy as a theme. I am more interested in laughing when I game. Epic Struggle doesn't interest me nearly as much as what the duck will do when he sees the Legate's private bath, or why the giant is _really_ interested in trollball.

The genius of the setting is it can accommodate so many styles and still work.

Ahem to that.

[Grievous]

1 hour ago, Tigerwomble said:

I agree entirely with what you say. I suppose i've never played a Glorantha game that has pushed the boundaries of Sartarite xenophobia and intense violence. I'm also unsure how far that can be pushed before the setting starts breaking down. Some settings are designed to be dark, bleak and violent and have the structures in place to cope with the kinds of extremes that might be indulged by players.

Also isn't behaviour that it too 'dark' in Sartarite society perceived as inspired by chaos.

Well, there's absolutely culturally approved (by the Orlanthi) behaviour which we would find at least dubious - such as revenge, feuds, etc. But when they break the rules of the community they can absolutely bring about justice from the community or even bring about Chaos. All these instances would be playing with darker themes in Glorantha, even though in one the dark nature is mainly felt at the table by the players, while in the other it hits both the character and player level. As a GM I love hitting themes/playing with/challenging players on all these levels.

Whether the PCs are murder-hobos who get punished by the clan/tribe/kingdom, or are the ones sent to bring brutal Orlanthi justice to other murder-hobos, I think we're dealing with stories which are uniquely Gloranthan (as compared to, say, your basic D&D) and which can be pretty dark and dramatic. Gloranthan Chaos just seems a(n) (un)natural extension of this, bringing these ideas/deeds to threaten existence itself, and is there for you when you want to make these things more overtly supernatural. Murder-hobos killing things and taking their stuff? Check. Murder-hobos killing gods and rending reality? Check. 

 

Edited May 29, 2018 by Grievous

[Tigerwomble]

10 minutes ago, Grievous said:

Well, there's absolutely culturally approved (by the Orlanthi) behaviour which we would find at least dubious - such as revenge, feuds, etc. But when they break the rules of the community they can absolutely bring about justice from the community or even bring about Chaos. All these instances would be playing with darker themes in Glorantha, even though in one the dark nature is mainly felt at the table by the players, while in the other it hits both the character and player level. As a GM I love hitting themes/playing with/challenging players on all these levels.

Whether the PCs are murder-hobos who get punished by the clan/tribe/kingdom, or are the ones sent to bring brutal Orlanthi justice to other murder-hobos, I think we're dealing with stories which are uniquely Gloranthan (as compared to, say, your basic D&D) and which can be pretty dark and dramatic. Gloranthan Chaos just seems a(n) (un)natural extension of this, bringing these ideas/deeds to threaten existence itself, and is there for you when you want to make these things more overtly supernatural. Murder-hobos killing things and taking their stuff? Check. Murder-hobos killing gods and rending reality? Check. 

 

It would seem that the grimness is there in the setting, but may not have been overtly apparent in the games i've played. Sure there was violence and chaos etc. But there was never that Lovecraftian sense of dread, forbidden knowledge and the cliff edge of madness that comes about when dealing with Broo, gods and Heroquesting etc.

[goldenwheeldancer]

Didn't some of the cosmic mice - the Boggles - survive? There's no telling where they might poo poo next or what they might start nibbling on.

Dark as Hell!

 

Also, in the Runequest version of Glorantha one single hit can kill you. There's good potential for grim story telling there.

[Tigerwomble]

4 minutes ago, goldenwheeldancer said:

Didn't some of the cosmic mice - the Boggles - survive? There's no telling where they might poo poo next or what they might start nibbling on.

Dark as Hell!

 

Also, in the Runequest version of Glorantha one single hit can kill you. There's good potential for grim story telling there.

Don't talk to me about Cosmic Mice. The therapy cost me a packet........ nibbling, nibbling......

[Joerg]

There is also sufficient "dark" stuff in Glorantha that makes adding Cthulhu sort of "yawn, another of those Chaos enemies". Pulling in Great Old Ones is the equivalent to breaking the Cosmic Compromise, but when you do so, the immediate divine presence of deities like Orlanth, Yelm or the Black Eater isn't much better than exposure to the GOOs.

Chaos demons like the Crimson Bat or Cwim are almost the equivalent of Great Old Ones, and certainly on par with Mythos entities like Father Dagon. The Dark Young of Shub Niggurath wouldn't raise much of an eyebrow in the Pamaltelan Veldt, and Starspawn of Cthulhu are just an upgrade of Walktapi.

Travel between planets could be changed to travel to various other- or underworlds.

[Jeff]

As I see it, RuneQuest and Cthulhu are on a spectrum. Cthulhu is fundamentally nihilistic. Mankind is doomed as the universe is hostile and uncaring, and eventually the Great Old Ones will awaken and devour us all. The best we can do is buy some more time. Heroes are Nietzchean, staring into the abyss and the abyss is staring at them. The hero ends up alone and mad, scribbling on the walls with his fingernails.

RuneQuest is Jungian or Campbellian. The cosmos is in constant danger of degenerating into Chaos but it is possible for the hero to defeat Chaos and refound the cosmos. The hero's path comes at a price - sometimes a terrible price - but the hero can confront the void and succeed. However, the hero is a mortal with feet of clay, and even the greatest hero is flawed and falls. Let us honour the heroes that keep the world from disappearing into the empty void.

IMO neither is naive - neither is grimdark (then again, to me the quintessential grimdark setting - the WH 40k universe - is O'Brien's booted foot stamping on humanity's face forever). There is evil and horror in both settings, but in Glorantha we mortals are not necessarily doomed to annihilation (although we are certainly doomed to suffer and die) and engage in a constant struggle to keep the void at bay.

[Yelm's Light]

I'd say the hardscrabble existence of the Praxian tribes isn't particularly hopeful, though they do manage to survive.

5 hours ago, tedopon said:

Epic Struggle doesn't interest me nearly as much as what the duck will do when he sees the Legate's private bath...

...or what the Legate will do when he comes in and sees the duck playing Fountain.

[M Helsdon]

Glorantha is similar to the Bronze Age world of the East Mediterranean and Near East of the Iliad and Odyssey. We, and the people who listened to those stories know that there's a Dark Age coming with a massive societal collapse, when nearly all the kingdoms and Empires of that age will be swept away, but the inhabitants of the myths don't know that, even if their tales presage the beginnings of the end of their world.

The Greek Myths are set in a deteriorating cosmos, where mankind is destroyed or diminished at the end of each age: Gold, Silver, Bronze and most recently Iron, and Glorantha has a similar entropic decline, as the 'magic goes away'. Any educated Gloranthan is aware of this to some degree - it's fundamental to their myths, but does this affect their everyday lives? No, unless they enact rites and rituals intended to preserve the world every Sacred Time. But then, throughout our history, almost every culture has known that it is only one famine away from disaster, something we tend to forget, but we have other doomsday scenarios as terrible as any god's wrath. And then there are the Outside Context Problems never experienced or imagined that might turn up with potentially fatal consequences. The inhabitants of Thera never expected their pleasant and rich lives to end so explosively, because they didn't know they were living on one of the world's most destructive and dangerous volcanos...

So Gloranthans live on the precipice of disaster, but that's just a fact of life. And it's always been so.

[Joerg]

20 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

So Gloranthans live on the precipice of disaster, but that's just a fact of life. And it's always been so.

Actually, Glorantha has been on the brink of permanent destruction, and re-emerged as this post-apocalyptic and initially hopeful world, only to find itself drawn into way too hopeful new schemes that led to something approaching a repeat of that annihilation.

Most recently in the Dragon Pass area, there has been an almost year long return to conditions like they were shortly before the almost-destruction of the entire world, and then the cause for this was eliminated by a dragon rising, something about as fearful again. The empire behind that magic still exists, and its minions are just behind that ridge running through the wide gap between the impassable mountain chains that is Dragon Pass.

This conflict has just started, and yet already up to a quarter of the people in this place have succumbed to catastrophic events. And everybody is certain that there are more to come, and eager to make them happen elsewhere.

There is a near certainty that your loved ones will perish in droves in the troubles to come. There is a slight chance that you may be able to save a few of them through acts of extraordinary heroism. The cataclysm has started, and the first two rounds - windstop and dragonrise - were only a weak beginning.

 

This is how I would frame Glorantha for friends of the Dark Fantasy genre. 

 

Yes, there is some hope for Glorantha, about as much as there is for Norse Midgard for the time after Ragnarök. But even this rather meager promise takes all out of your characters. The outcome may be a lot worse.

[jajagappa]

6 hours ago, goldenwheeldancer said:

Didn't some of the cosmic mice - the Boggles - survive? There's no telling where they might poo poo next or what they might start nibbling on.

Nochet, in my game. 😉

 

[TrippyHippy]

20 hours ago, Mankcam said:

Tolkien was a Brit, and Lord of the RIngs is pretty hopeful and shiny. 

It really wasn't. Lord of the Rings is hardcore dark fantasy - it's central theme is largely about death, as inspired by Tolkien's own experience in World War I and his own reflections of Wold War II. There is a central Christian-esque morality at play within the setting and characters, which contrasts with later fantasy creations, and reflects Tolkien's own conservative world views - but unlike The Hobbit, the story is not fully aimed at children nor is it a lighthearted romp. Characters die and suffer in LotR. 

Edited May 30, 2018 by TrippyHippy

[Tigerwomble]

15 hours ago, Joerg said:

There is also sufficient "dark" stuff in Glorantha that makes adding Cthulhu sort of "yawn, another of those Chaos enemies". Pulling in Great Old Ones is the equivalent to breaking the Cosmic Compromise, but when you do so, the immediate divine presence of deities like Orlanth, Yelm or the Black Eater isn't much better than exposure to the GOOs.

Chaos demons like the Crimson Bat or Cwim are almost the equivalent of Great Old Ones, and certainly on par with Mythos entities like Father Dagon. The Dark Young of Shub Niggurath wouldn't raise much of an eyebrow in the Pamaltelan Veldt, and Starspawn of Cthulhu are just an upgrade of Walktapi.

Travel between planets could be changed to travel to various other- or underworlds.

I never suggested adding Cthulhu. I mentioned 'Lovecraftian' by way of expressing a sense of dread for what already exists in the setting

[The God Learner]

21 hours ago, Tigerwomble said:

Also isn't behaviour that it too 'dark' in Sartarite society perceived as inspired by chaos.

Once old enough to care, we played it as an irony to us modern wimps: hidebound suspicious Sartarites fighting progressive Lunars.