RQG Sorcery

[PhilHibbs]

54 minutes ago, Mugen said:

It was suggested in another thread that RQ3 sorcery was not very like the one you see in fiction. But, what exactly makes RQG sorcery more "gloranthan" than RQ3 one ?

Does it have to be more Gloranthan? RQ3 sorcery was written to be Gloranthan. Neither are very much like the sorcery that is described in Greg's very early stories of the Serpent Kings, but they are also designed with playability and balance in mind.

One of the stories describes a sorceror summoning a powerful gale to blow back some enemies, but when he realises that they are friends, he can't stop casting the spell without unleashing a dangerous magical backlash which nearly kills him. That has never been written into a sorcery mechanic. You could maybe explain it by saying that the sorcerous arts have been finessed to be more safe in the intervening time.

Sandy's system added vows and saints, the latter could be added without breaking anything, not sure how vows could work though.

I think it's important to bear in mind that spirit magic and rune magic don't accurately match Gloranthan fiction either, and no game system has ever described a world perfectly, unless the world is written to match the game system, in which case that world doesn't match the laws of physics for a start. Don't try to be too ambitious, the gameplay and the general feel is more important than strictly simulating the fiction.

Edited June 16, 2018 by PhilHibbs

[simonh]

23 minutes ago, Mugen said:

It was suggested in another thread that RQ3 sorcery was not very like the one you see in fiction. But, what exactly makes RQG sorcery more "gloranthan" than RQ3 one ?

Good question. I think it’s mainly use of the runes in the game mechanics. We know that the God Learners were Malikoni, were primarily sorcerers, systematised and exploited their knowledge and use of the runes and basically re-engineered systems of magic along those lines. Therefore if any magical system in the 3rd age should involve use and manipulation of the runes it should really be Sorcery. RQG does that.

On top of that, in RQ3 it wasn’t at all clear how to generate a sorcerer from a culture in Glorantha  other than to just use the generic rules for sorcerer characters in RQ3. What’s the difference between an Aeolian sorcerer, Lunar sorcerer, etc in RQ3? We don’t have much on that in RQG yet, but clearly the structures in terms of homelands, cult/church, etc is there to support that in future.

It’s early days in this area, but we can look forward to creating sorcerer characters from a particular culture and tradition and with appropriate magic. We never had that in RQ3 and it never really looked like we were going to either. Right now you create a hedge sorcerer or Lankhor Mhy student of sorcery that’s entirely appropriate for Dragon Pass.

Simon Hibbs

Edited June 16, 2018 by simonh

[RosenMcStern]

46 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Does it have to be more Gloranthan? RQ3 sorcery was written to be Gloranthan.

Was it? I can find no reference to this fact anywhere.

Quote

Neither are very much like the sorcery that is described in Greg's very early stories of the Serpent Kings, but they are also designed with playability and balance in mind.

Many people have a different opinion about the playability and balance of RQ3 sorcery.

Quote

Sandy's system added vows and saints, the latter could be added without breaking anything, not sure how vows could work though.

They would add back that medieval flavour that was de-canonised long ago. I would not recommend doing this.

[PhilHibbs]

8 minutes ago, RosenMcStern said:

Was it? I can find no reference to this fact anywhere.

Sandy said it. Same for vows and saints, they may no longer be currently canonical, but that was how Sandy saw it at the time. Vows are not medieval, it's just another word for geas. Giving up free will has always been part of Gloranthan magical progression.

8 minutes ago, RosenMcStern said:

Many people have a different opinion about the playability and balance of RQ3 sorcery.

The stories are even less playable and balanced!

Edited June 16, 2018 by PhilHibbs

[Joerg]

50 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Does it have to be more Gloranthan? RQ3 sorcery was written to be Gloranthan.

Are you sure about that? The entire Familiar mechanic was completely out of the air, about as much grounded in earlier writings as the physical runes of MRQ1.

If Zzabur had a familiar, what kind of creature would that be? A tamed son of Vadrus? The goddess Britha?

 

Was there ever something remotely similar to a Cults of Prax for the Gloranthan West? I know that Charlie Krank did some gaming in the region, from the article on the Neliomi Sea in Wyrm's Footnotes, and a company editorial that promised material in the Malkioni region, but have there ever been manuscripts dealing with this? Where did the Malkioni sects/heresies come from?

50 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Neither are very much like the sorcery that is described in Greg's very early stories of the Serpent Kings, but they are also designed with playability and balance in mind.

The current rules allow the magics described in e.g. Arkat's Saga, or mentioned in passing in the Arolanit section. They don't specify how the sorcerer has any hopes to get even close to the amount of magic points or the potential for manipulation to do this, though.

50 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

One of the stories describes a sorceror summoning a powerful gale to blow back some enemies, but when he realises that they are friends, he can't stop casting the spell without unleashing a dangerous magical backlash which nearly kills him. That has never been written into a sorcery mechanic.

We might have to wait for the Gamemaster's book for details on auspicious pre-conditions to summon such a spell.

This might be a portal to a portion of the Storm Realm where such a violent storm might reside, possibly previously contracted or overcome and bound to service by the sorcerer, and his magic might be mainly the maintenance of the portal to let that storm out. When abandoning the portal, he would have to fight the fury of the storm himself.

50 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

You could maybe explain it by saying that the sorcerous arts have been finessed to be more safe in the intervening time.

No, I don't think so. Many of the over-powerful effects of sorcery come from exerting some sorcerous control over very powerful Otherworld entities, and stepping away from the standard procedure releasing such powers would have very bad consequences for the sorcerer in semi-control of such an event.

 

50 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Sandy's system added vows and saints, the latter could be added without breaking anything, not sure how vows could work though.

I wasn't that enamoured of the vows, but then I have never gotten the Yelmalian gifts and geasa, either.

50 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I think it's important to bear in mind that spirit magic and rune magic don't accurately match Gloranthan fiction either, and no game system has ever described a world perfectly, unless the world is written to match the game system, in which case that world doesn't match the laws of physics for a start. Don't try to be too ambitious, the gameplay and the general feel is more important than strictly simulating the fiction.

The "energy source" and "narratively necessary amount of control" over these magics has always clashed with the strict but elegant meta-rules of RuneQuest. I really hope that the Gamemasters' Book will be able to offer methods that allow modification of the basic rules to enable such things.

[Tindalos]

20 hours ago, Joerg said:

Are you sure about that? The entire Familiar mechanic was completely out of the air, about as much grounded in earlier writings as the physical runes of MRQ1.

If Zzabur had a familiar, what kind of creature would that be? A tamed son of Vadrus? The goddess Britha?

Given the RQ:G mention of familiars in the spirit binding spell, there's the implication there that familiars are animals with spirits bound into them. The question then becomes, can the Bind Elemental and Bind Spirit sorcery spells be cast on animals? Given the spells appear to be similar to the Binding Enchantment spirit and rune magic spells, it wouldn't surprise me if so.

Of course, the only previous example of a Malkioni wizard with a familiar that I recall (Arlaten the White, in Strangers in Prax) had an unliving familiar of bronze, typically as a metal staff, the question may be academic.

Now while no wizard would dream of using such a spirit's spirit magic. they can still use the bound spirits' magic points. Which is extremely useful for fuelling sorcery, especially if the wizard wants to cast spells against spirits, without risking losing spirit combat.

As for Zzabur's familiar, Britha may make a good option, as an elemental bound into the island. Perhaps a wizard studying the story of the Ill-Intentioned Goddess mentioned in Revealed Mythologies could learn Bind Elemental.

[Joerg]

On 6/17/2018 at 10:46 AM, Tindalos said:

Given the RQ:G mention of familiars in the spirit binding spell, there's the implication there that familiars are animals with spirits bound into them. The question then becomes, can the Bind Elemental and Bind Spirit sorcery spells be cast on animals? Given the spells appear to be similar to the Binding Enchantment spirit and rune magic spells, it wouldn't surprise me if so.

These familiars are basically the allied spirits bound into creatures that abound in e.g. Griffin Mountain, and not the mindlinked sorcerous creation (and source of Free INT) of RQ3. So no, the familiar to which the apprentice sorcerer had to sacrifice a point of POW in order to be able to learn the principles of advanced sorcery (other manipulation skills than Intensity) doesn't exist in RQG.

From what I see, the enchantments listed under spirit magic are usable by sorcerers as well, and may be bound into spell matices (pretty much like inscribed spells, but can be inherited), in order not to take up any Free INT. The enchanter only has to pour one point of personal POW into an enchantment if he has enough volunteers to provide additional POW - one might assume that the customer of the enchanter might be a donor, or very dedicated followers. There is a question whether voluntary POW donation might be asked for as ransom...

 

 

On 6/17/2018 at 10:46 AM, Tindalos said:

Now while no wizard would dream of using such a spirit's spirit magic.

If you read the Hepherones text or some of the western novel fragments, commanding "pagan" entities (including deities) to do their innate magic is pretty much exactly what accomplished sorcerers do. A sorcerer may acquire a spirit spell matrix and use it just like any other character. He may even learn the spirit spell himself, make the enchantment himself, and then "forget" that spell to free up his INT, but binding that entity and commanding it to do its stuff may be more in keeping with Malkioni exceptionalism.

On 6/17/2018 at 10:46 AM, Tindalos said:

they can still use the bound spirits' magic points. Which is extremely useful for fuelling sorcery, especially if the wizard wants to cast spells against spirits, without risking losing spirit combat.

I don't explicitely see the ability of bound spirits to provide magic points to their binder, or at least I haven't seen it yet. They might be controlled to "use" a magic point matrix or a crystal, i.e. to fill it, and possibly that could be made a standing order (though I don't see the means for that explicitely written). Passing on that matrix/crystal would then enable the user of the item to access those magic points.

The Malkioni "Worship (Invisible God)" and weekly worship services (presumably on Godsday) are mentioned in the sorcery chapter, and that the Malkioni sorcerer may use the skill to access a portion of the magic points sacrificed in that service before passing them on up the chain. Such excess MP probably need to go into storages, unless they work similar to tapped MP in excess of the personal maximum (which remain available for the duration of the Tap spell).

 

My main eye-rubbing realization of RQG sorcery is that the vast majority of Malkioni probably are Daka Fal cultists (just as mentioned in Cults of Prax) as the non-zzabur castes (usually? always?) don't learn sorcery, but spirit magic, and possibly some rune magic.

Aeolianism as described under sorcery puts this to the extreme - Free Men and Nobles learn (Heortling. or at least Heortling-style) spirit and rune magic, and only their Sorcerer caste learns sorcery. Other than possibly participating in some analog to the "Worship (Invisible God)" weekly rites (not sure whether they do) which might benefit their sorcerers, what is the difference between the non-wizard castes and Heortlings? Are we back to something resembling my original suggestions on the Daily in the 1990ies, only minus personal sorcery for non-wizards?

Also interesting: what (if any) magic do the less intelligent members of their wizard caste wield (those with INT 13 or less)?  It doesn't have to be spell magic, I'd be fine with them acting as assistant enchanters or folk applying rote learning in preparation of magical material for their spell casters.

 

I begin to understand why Heortland (apart from the Volsaxi lands around Whitewall) hasn't been selected as a Homeland, and how cosmopolitan Nochet with all its foreign cults with memberships in tribal size may remain a somewhat distant setting for RQG.

 

 

[Tindalos]

11 minutes ago, Joerg said:

These familiars are basically the allied spirits bound into creatures that abound in e.g. Griffin Mountain, and not the mindlinked sorcerous creation (and source of Free INT) of RQ3. So no, the familiar to which the apprentice sorcerer had to sacrifice a point of POW in order to be able to learn the principles of advanced sorcery (other manipulation skills than Intensity) doesn't exist in RQG.

True, but I view that as a rule change, not a particular setting change. Familiars may work differently, but they still exist.

 

12 minutes ago, Joerg said:

If you read the Hepherones text or some of the western novel fragments, commanding "pagan" entities (including deities) to do their innate magic is pretty much exactly what accomplished sorcerers do. A sorcerer may acquire a spirit spell matrix and use it just like any other character. He may even learn the spirit spell himself, make the enchantment himself, and then "forget" that spell to free up his INT, but binding that entity and commanding it to do its stuff may be more in keeping with Malkioni exceptionalism.

I don't explicitely see the ability of bound spirits to provide magic points to their binder, or at least I haven't seen it yet. They might be controlled to "use" a magic point matrix or a crystal, i.e. to fill it, and possibly that could be made a standing order (though I don't see the means for that explicitely written). Passing on that matrix/crystal would then enable the user of the item to access those magic points.

Commanding the spirit to use its magic is one thing, and completely in character. But I'm referring to the Bound Spirits section on page 366, which is also where using the spirit's magic points is mentioned. There they mention that the binder can use the spirit's spirit magic or magic points as if they were their own.

I was thinking this would be a little too pagan for them, but on the other hand it's really no different to a spirit magic matrix. (And regretfully I haven't read the western novel fragments, I imagine they're full of a lot of fascinating Malkioni lore)

[simonh]

35 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

True, but I view that as a rule change, not a particular setting change. Familiars may work differently, but they still exist.

I expect so. I think the reason we don't have rules for them in the core book is that there aren't any native Dragon Pass sorcerers with Familiars. If you look at who has sorcery in RQG, and therefore in Dragon Pass, it's lone philosophers and Lankor Mhy worshipers. I expect the secrets of creating a Familiar are known only to the Malkioni, and maybe some other sophisticated schools of sorcery.

[Tindalos]

24 minutes ago, simonh said:

I expect so. I think the reason we don't have rules for them in the core book is that there aren't any native Dragon Pass sorcerers with Familiars. If you look at who has sorcery in RQG, and therefore in Dragon Pass, it's lone philosophers and Lankor Mhy worshipers. I expect the secrets of creating a Familiar are known only to the Malkioni, and maybe some other sophisticated schools of sorcery.

According to RQ:G, familiars are known. The Spirit Binding spirit magic spell creates them when used on an animal.

Its usage in the guide also suggests that a familiar is just a spirit in an animal vessel.

[Atgxtg]

On 6/16/2018 at 6:29 AM, PhilHibbs said:

One of the stories describes a sorceror summoning a powerful gale to blow back some enemies, but when he realises that they are friends, he can't stop casting the spell without unleashing a dangerous magical backlash which nearly kills him. That has never been written into a sorcery mechanic. You could maybe explain it by saying that the sorcerous arts have been finessed to be more safe in the intervening time.

No there hasn't, but it wouldn't be too hard a mechanic to incorporate.. Assuming that a sorcery spends 1 MP per Strike Rank to power up a spell, and that once the MPs pumped into the spell past a certain threshold (say his POW score?) it could become impossible to just dissipate. Perhaps having the energy go off as Disrupt type effect might work.

[Joerg]

3 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

True, but I view that as a rule change, not a particular setting change. Familiars may work differently, but they still exist.

Familiars as in allied spirits yes.

RQ3 adept sorcerers' sorcerous familiars as in e.g. nymphs given permanent bodies, as an extension of the sorcerers magical self, are something completely different, and something I have never used for Glorantha. That's a setting issue about as important as the shaman's fetch or a priest's rune point pool, an expression the advanced magical "organ" of a specialist magician.

The RQ3 manipulation skills that disappeared (fairly unmourned) with the new approach to Sorcery have been replaced by the six techniques also used in HQG. Each spell as as separate skill is of course a bigger hurdle than having spells as (positive) break-outs of a grimoire ability. The absence of grimoires in RQG (so far) is far more troubling to me than the absence of a Law Rune with percentiles, or Condition runes other than Moon or Chaos.

I am quite happy with the direction of the technique/rune combo spell-casting, though I need to play this through to see its applicability.

3 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

I was thinking this would be a little too pagan for them, but on the other hand it's really no different to a spirit magic matrix.

Would it bother anyone if the magic would be called Battle Magic or Common Magic rather than Spirit Magic?

In White Wolf's 1st edition Mage I played a virtual adept whose spirits were algorithms. I think that a materialist Westerner would regard non-ancestral ones as similar, with some weird UI quirk one might be able to pamper to save effort.

In the example of the powerful gale, acknowledging this individuality quirk may have been what hampered the sorcerer trying to hold back on the damage to his allies, interposing himself with the original targets. That's the danger with accepting pagan concepts in magic.

3 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

(And regretfully I haven't read the western novel fragments, I imagine they're full of a lot of fascinating Malkioni lore)

I have read less of those fragments than I would have liked to read, too... but both Zzabur and the God Learners (such as the Free Men of the Sea) summoned and commanded deities (or deity-scale elementals) to do their bidding. Pulling lesser such entities out of some prison, preferably on some magical leash, sounds perfectly normal.

I am not sure whether they really contain "lore" in the sense of canonical material, but they sure provide ideas and concepts tat shaped our current picture of the West.

The notions that were put forward in Hero Wars, HeroQuest 1 or Stafford Library books from that era are probably as hard to retain. I was quite comfortable with the concept of low orders of sorcery as per HQ1.

2 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

According to RQ:G, familiars are known. The Spirit Binding spirit magic spell creates them when used on an animal.

Its usage in the guide also suggests that a familiar is just a spirit in an animal vessel.

Yes. And that's fundamentally different from the role of familiars in RQ3.

The absence of the permanent Mindlink is a major difference even for allied or cult spirits residing in beasts. While communication (at least the giving of orders) is possible, and non-verbal responses may be trained/agreed upon with intelligent spirits inhabiting animals unable to use spoken language, mental communication requires ranged magic or touch.

[Oracle]

Just being curious: What are the Western Novel fragments ... and where could you find them ...

[simonh]

9 hours ago, Tindalos said:

According to RQ:G, familiars are known. The Spirit Binding spirit magic spell creates them when used on an animal.

Its usage in the guide also suggests that a familiar is just a spirit in an animal vessel.

I think that's a different use of the term. In RQ3 each form of magic had a unique magical otherworldly companion form for advanced magicians. Shamans had their fetch, Theists had an Allied Spirit and sorcerers had Familiars which were more than just spirits bound into an animal. In RQG the Fetch and Allied Spirit exist, but Sorcerers don't have an equivalent otherworldly companion entity. Anyone can bind spirits into objects, and maybe into animals too, but that's not the same thing. Maybe there won't be any such thing in RQG, and clearly the term Familiar in particular is being used in a more general sense just meaning spirit bound into an animal.

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, Oracle said:

Just being curious: What are the Western Novel fragments ... and where could you find them ...

"Roots of Glorantha", a special publication for top level Guide to Glorantha backers.

[Richard S.]

4 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

"Roots of Glorantha", a special publication for top level Guide to Glorantha backers.

...any hope of us normal folks getting a look at it?

[Joerg]

9 hours ago, Oracle said:

Just being curious: What are the Western Novel fragments ... and where could you find them ...

Some of those used to be auctioned off for quite high amounts at Convulsion or so, with pretty much of a "do not share" attached, others were read out by Greg at those conventions, with a few even being recorded. Then (probably, didn't have the means for that) all this stuff got packed into a set of exclusive hardcovers to the highest level supporters of the Guide Kickstarter. 

Some of the content of e.g. Hrestols Saga was subsequently published on glorantha.com, like "Kings of Seshnela" (part 1 only in Hrestol's Saga, IIRC) or the Pendali kings list.

Then a great amount of detail was sifted out of these stories and worked into the Guide - compare the Fronela entries in the Guide with the chapter in Genertela Book, or look e.g. at the list of old Ralian deities encountered by the Seshnegi. Quite a lot of this is right under our noses, and some bits were commented on in the Guide Group Read (which unfortunately hasn't got to Seshnela or the Wastes yet, leaving two of the more crucial regions of Genertela under-explored).

 

Edited June 30, 2018 by Joerg

[Tindalos]

Kings of Seshnela did get the other two bits done as well. One, two, and three.

There's also Safelster in the first age which has details on the old Ralian deities mentioned in the guide as well. (And by the same names used in the Xeotam dialogues. (Also found in the Glorantha Sourcebook.))

 

 

[styopa]

4 hours ago, Richard S. said:

...any hope of us normal folks getting a look at it?

Would kind of obviate the reason to be a top-level backer, no?

[Richard S.]

2 minutes ago, styopa said:

Would kind of obviate the reason to be a top-level backer, no?

Eh, probably. To me though it makes it seem like there's parts of the setting reserved for "exclusive members".

[soltakss]

25 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

Eh, probably. To me though it makes it seem like there's parts of the setting reserved for "exclusive members".

There always has been, or has been for a very long while.

I just accept it and move on.

[Tindalos]

30 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

Eh, probably. To me though it makes it seem like there's parts of the setting reserved for "exclusive members".

Given that stuff's all unfinished, I figure we'll see it when it's eventually turned into gaming material rather than a book of stuff which wouldn't even be organized enough for the Stafford Library books. (Of course even there you have the Middle Sea Empire and Revealed Mythologies books, which are really nice as well.)

[PhilHibbs]

2 hours ago, Richard S. said:

Eh, probably. To me though it makes it seem like there's parts of the setting reserved for "exclusive members".

A lot of it, I suspect, is no longer considered part of the finished "Glorantha" setting. Sort of like Tolkien's writings of Trotter, a Hobbit with wooden feet. It's also a real mess of typewriter corrections and illegible scribbles in places.

[Joerg]

11 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

A lot of it, I suspect, is no longer considered part of the finished "Glorantha" setting. Sort of like Tolkien's writings of Trotter, a Hobbit with wooden feet. It's also a real mess of typewriter corrections and illegible scribbles in places.

Quite comparable to Tolkien's older approaches to the Silmarillion, yes - no more Tuor and Glorfindel killing balrogs left and right, but still a significant number of them at the fall of Gondolin. Short synopses abound in the Guide. The longer details would need to be framed in a way that they could be in-world documents (similar to King of Sartar), and adapted to canon.

[Joerg]

RQG sorcerers are forced to specialize. They need at least one technique (I suppose Command is the standard, as it avoids open confession of Tap and covers all others), up to two of the standard elements to cover all of those, and Moon separately, up to four Powers and as many Forms as they can learn. An all-rounder would need to have INT 25 to accommodate all of these (and pay double or quadruple cost for inferred runes or techniques), 26 if they also have Chaos. It is nice that the six techniques are the same as in HQG.

I suppose that Brithini sorcerers will have few gaps, and that many of them will have the Tap technique rather than Command. The question is how do they arrive at such values - through racial bonus and runes, or possibly through long-term Enhance INT?

The rules tell us what INT is needed to acquire which combined amount of runes and techniques, but it doesn't tell us what happens when INT falls below a value required to hold that many mastered ones, by whichever means (tapping, disease, age, expiration of enhancing magic). It is quite clear to me that Free INT should remain blocked, reducing the available Free INT, but will the sorcerer be able to access all of his (formerly?) mastered runes or techniques (and the associated spells), or does he have to pick which ones remain active?

One of the first spells sorcerers will inscribe is Enhance INT, putting POW into its strength and duration to have some room for adaptation. Duration for this spell is fairly cheap, though, compared to effective stength of the spell. This spell is a good incentive to learn Summon as additional technique, but then a "regiment" of wizards needs only a few specialist enhancers of INT servicing their colleagues - its range is touch rather than self.

Unlike magical healing, I would rule that these spells don't stack - each casting starts with the recipient's natural INT score and adds the effect of this spell anew.

 

If I read the paragraph on creating new spells correctly, research sorcerers wishing to create new spells will need to have the techniques and runes of a spell they research directly rather than inferred through insight. Another good reason for specialisation.

There could be a number of similar effects with different combinations of runes and techniques. Summon Fire may create light, but Dispel Darkness might create some form of visibility, too, as would Summon Moon. Combine Darkness Fire might create a Firesense for Darksense or a Darksee for normal vision. It might even be possible to use some other projected sense and have a recipient hallucinate the sensed objects as vision in a quite complex spell, but possibly with side effects like "X-ray vision".

 

What is missing compared to HQG is the concept of grimoires which provide a common basic chance for the spells included. They still can (and will) act as written sources for spells of a given tradition, but few wizards will be able to access all spells in such a grimoire for lack of runes.

 

I haven't seen any speculations about sorcerers belonging to other traditions. Some typical spells for sects offer themselves, like Tap Chaos for Boristi or Tap Man (and possibly some element to target a stat) for Galvosti. As mentioned above for the Brithini, schools that allow Tapping will use Tap as their basic technique, conveniently taking care of the increased MP cost for related techniques while being maximally efficient for harvesting MP.

 

Malkioni and Theyalans share a calender, and outside of lunar phases, so do the Pelorians, so elemental and power associations will be the same for sorcerers from these cultures. This will extend to Fonritian sorcerers, too, but what about Eastern sorcerers, e.g. from Kralorela or Vormain, with their own, quite different calendar. Magicians from these lands may of course have had contact with the God Learners and use their system for sympathetic magic, too, but it should be possible to use sympathetic effects from their calendar, too. The six-day week can be made to map to elements, but it might as well be made to map to the techniques, the Ancestral Dragons, or other such double triads.