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11 minutes ago, Joerg said:

RQG sorcerers are forced to specialize. They need at least one technique (I suppose Command is the standard, as it avoids open confession of Tap and covers all others), up to two of the standard elements to cover all of those, and Moon separately, up to four Powers and as many Forms as they can learn.

If the HQ runic relationship for the Moon Rune is repeated in RQG then all the Lunar sorcerors need to learn is the Moon element which gives them access to most other elements and powers.  

11 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I suppose that Brithini sorcerers will have few gaps, and that many of them will have the Tap technique rather than Command. The question is how do they arrive at such values - through racial bonus and runes, or possibly through long-term Enhance INT?

A possibility might be to subjugate their various passions to the Law Rune (like the Dragonewts did in WF #14) as an alternative to mental knowledge of forms and techniques.

I'll be interested in seeing how the Bestiary handles the Mostali although I suspect most of them will learn spirit magic.

11 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I haven't seen any speculations about sorcerers belonging to other traditions.

Dara Happan sorcery would be based on the Buseri with their techniques being based on astronomical phenomenon - Creation would be Rising, Destruction would be Setting etc.  Their spells would be based on the stars and planets and they would be bonuses for performing under or having witnessed specific conjunctions and penalties for performing spells one only knows through theory or cut of from the heavens.

I think the Carmanians have gone similarly native in their philosophy to ground themselves against the evils of the God Learners.  The standard canon would be based on the seven high gods plus injnctions against Ganesataurus.  

Loskalmi sorcery would be all about Joyb and henosis.  They would bulk up on enhance characteristic spells and other spells that improve the self to enhance their ideal nature.  Spells that effect the external world would have a reduced attraction to them as they are primarily concerned about contacting the Hidden Mover and not the external world.

Kralori sorcery is I feel swiped by Godunya from the teachings of the EWF and God Learners, which has drowned out what native sorcery there was.  Most of the Mandarins think that amoral magics is too powerful to be learned by people of insufficient virtue (and some mandarins include themselves in that group) anyone and so forbid their use to all except for the Eunuch servants of Godunya.  There is much gossip over people furtively learning Goduunyan sorcery through the Wheel of Hemkarba which Godunya brought back from the west.

Fonritan sorcery has a variety of sources - the oldest lore which they took from Tishamto, the revealed lore Garangordos recovered from the Vadeli Ruins and the newest lore which the Vadeli brought after the Opening.  The only saving grace is that the sorcerors plague each other, preventing anybody from becoming too dominant.  

Vithelan sorcery about about purifiying the soul and is similar to Loskalmi sorcery except that most sages consider spells to fight Andins and other unsavory types to be a distraction.

All IMO

 

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3 hours ago, metcalph said:

If the HQ runic relationship for the Moon Rune is repeated in RQG then all the Lunar sorcerors need to learn is the Moon element which gives them access to most other elements and powers.  

I know that relationship is laid out in HQ but I don't really understand it?

In RQG it doesn't make sense to me that the magical center-rune that ties the elemental runes together is moon, when we actually HAVE a magic rune.  Wouldn't that make more sense?

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43 minutes ago, styopa said:

I know that relationship is laid out in HQ but I don't really understand it?

In RQG it doesn't make sense to me that the magical center-rune that ties the elemental runes together is moon, when we actually HAVE a magic rune.  Wouldn't that make more sense?

Magic isn't an elemental rune and doesn't pertain purely to elements, while Moon is an element.

Edited by simonh

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2 hours ago, styopa said:

I know that relationship is laid out in HQ but I don't really understand it?

In RQG it doesn't make sense to me that the magical center-rune that ties the elemental runes together is moon, when we actually HAVE a magic rune.  Wouldn't that make more sense?

No it wouldn't. It would in fact be very wrong. A tremendous amount of thought went into the arrangement of the Runes used for characters in RQG, and they reflect important realities behind the setting.

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I think there’s an amount of confusion here with Glorantha lore, rules sets and layout.

6 hours ago, metcalph said:

If the HQ runic relationship for the Moon Rune is repeated in RQG then all the Lunar sorcerors need to learn is the Moon element which gives them access to most other elements and powers

Only if the phase magics are brought into it. I’m not sure that’s a thing in RQG, the phases are much more useful in a narrative game, where RQG has individual spells. I don’t think that one applies to the other here except at a theoretical level. Using phases with RQG sorcery is going to be very messy and overly complex.

Their are differing schools of lunar magic, some even at odds with each other, that break the rules of sorcery as currently depicted in the core book. It only touches on the idea that there are different schools.

2 hours ago, styopa said:

In RQG it doesn't make sense to me that the magical center-rune that ties the elemental runes together is moon, when we actually HAVE a magic rune.  Wouldn't that make more sense?

I think this is just a good way of depicting it rather than leaving a gaping hole in the elemental circle. IIRC the moon is not considered an element by some, but a condition. It’s just stuck in the middle as it is an element. Notice that it has no arrows connecting it to other elements.

On top of these three different things, there is no grand unified rune theory or the god learners would have been right. The setting has always provided ambiguous info that’s there to enrich not to provide absolutes. The runes are a subjective not objective reality.

 

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55 minutes ago, metcalph said:

If the HQ runic relationship for the Moon Rune is repeated in RQG then all the Lunar sorcerors need to learn is the Moon element which gives them access to most other elements and powers.

The way I interpreted the text, mastering the Moon rune doesn't grant any insights to the other elements, but the Lunar cult of the Young Elementals grants access to all elemental runes except air through the Lunar school of sorcery.

Carmanians might be able to add Air, too (Invisible Orlanth...)

 

Ancient Brithini:

55 minutes ago, metcalph said:

A possibility might be to subjugate their various passions to the Law Rune (like the Dragonewts did in WF #14) as an alternative to mental knowledge of forms and techniques.

Passions don't play into the INT-blocking acquisition of Runes and Techniques - do you mean the Powers?

According to the rules, a rune or technique mastered cannot be unlearned. An ability to compress them into a single rune might be an advanced form of magic, possibly taking a century or two to learn. The Zzabur rune as the combination of all six mastered techniques, a pentagram as the combination of all the elements, an eight-branched stick for all the Powers, and something else for all the Forms might be possible.

In order to do something like this, you might have to have mastered all of these in their own right before starting the amalgamation, a serious drawback to practical applications.

55 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I'll be interested in seeing how the Bestiary handles the Mostali although I suspect most of them will learn spirit magic.

I expect the Mostali to have Mostal's tools rather than logical applications.

Jeff mentioned the Mostali "technologies" that power their sorcery:

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/7439-glorantha-technology-and-glorantha-material-technology/?page=2&tab=comments#comment-104041

 

Quote

We know that Mostal created the six simple machines to aid him in creating the Cosmic Spike, but men stole their secrets during the God Time. Men used them to raise their temples and sacred stones, and more. Men learned the techniques of forge and kiln from Gustbran, who also showed men how to harden wood with fire. Fortunately, men never stole the secrets of mana capacitors, mainsprings, flux containers and dispersal grids, complex gears, steam tubes, gun powder, the technique for generating raw energy from spirits and the energy transmission networks, cylinder pumps, or energy drain matrixes - at least none who did survived the Greater Darkness.  

While some of these appear to be purely mechanical or chemical contrivances to us (black powder, cylinder pumps, gears, steam tubes), the other ones are pretty much the sorcery I expect from Mostali.

The claims that all these inventions were stolen from the Mostali is dubious, to say the least. The Kadeniti claims for inventing architectural technologies and civic engineering are at least as good. Zzabur's Spirit Trap was engineered using Malkioni sorcery rather than Mostali alchemical transformation, and while it does mostly the same thing the Mostali device does, it is a feat of imitation rather than theft.

I have little doubt that the Mostali stole or imitated much of their technology from other, precursor races, like the Feldichi or the Gold Wheel Dancers and probably hundreds others that we lost memory of in the Gods War. The Mostali will hotly deny this, and believe their claims much like people enamored with "alternate facts".

 

55 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Dara Happan sorcery would be based on the Buseri with their techniques being based on astronomical phenomenon - Creation would be Rising, Destruction would be Setting etc.  Their spells would be based on the stars and planets and they would be bonuses for performing under or having witnessed specific conjunctions and penalties for performing spells one only knows through theory or cut of from the heavens.

I don't think that Dara Happan Star Lore has many spell applications, but I agree that by its very nature ()something learned) it has aspects of sorcery. It probably uses or replaces gears and similar devices for reproducing and predicting stellar movements. Personally, I prefer a purely light-based magic with crystal prisms forming the Firestick axis in their Star Towers.

Personally, I see Buserian as the sacrificer of cattle (or bulls, compare Busenari, Mother of Cows). That activity probably predates the emergence of the Stars in the wake of Umath's celestial rampage. The original bearer of stellar lore may have been Zaytenaras, the other planet (in addition to Entekos and the eight planetary suns/sons) in the sky.

55 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I think the Carmanians have gone similarly native in their philosophy to ground themselves against the evils of the God Learners.  The standard canon would be based on the seven high gods plus injnctions against Ganesataurus. 

The Carmanians are heirs to various traditions - the Spolite sorcery quite likely hearkens back to YarGan's minions. The 10,000 bring pre-God Learner Loskalmi/Akemite sorcery to the shores of Lake Oro

In the time of the RQ Daily, I compared notes with Nick Brooke about Persian-inspired cultures using a priesthood of the High One(s) and a caste of sorcerers keeping the Dark/Underworld/Demonic/Disruptive forces of the world in check. My own RQ3 (modded) setting's Fharsistan has a mock-Mithraic Light Side deity and mag wizardsi keeping the demonic side in check, dealing with summoners using blood rites on two fronts, one human and imperial, one non-human and horde-like. Nick expanded his Gloranthan insights on the Spolite Darkness and its Ganesatarus links. The various (and different) blue-skinned sorcerers encountered between the Sweet Sea and Lake Oronin (formerly Mt. Turos) had not yet taken as much shape as they received in the Entekosiad, but definitely were there in some form, tied to Castle Blue.

 

55 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Loskalmi sorcery would be all about Joyb and henosis.  They would bulk up on enhance characteristic spells and other spells that improve the self to enhance their ideal nature.  Spells that effect the external world would have a reduced attraction to them as they are primarily concerned about contacting the Hidden Mover and not the external world.

This would be true of the New Idealist Hrestoli/Irensavalists had not had a history of 14 centuries of struggle with the various beast toten peoples of Fronela and Ralios/Seshnela.

The Enjoreli bull folk were as much a threat to Talor's Loskalm (or to that of Talor's predecessors) was very real, and I think that  the magic deployed against these had a tradition of its own in the ranks of the Men-of-All. The higher consciousness magic you propose may come either through vision/grail quest like exposure to the Otherworld or be practiced by the wizard caste after the other stuff had been mastered.

 

55 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Kralori sorcery is I feel swiped by Godunya from the teachings of the EWF and God Learners, which has drowned out what native sorcery there was.  Most of the Mandarins think that amoral magics is too powerful to be learned by people of insufficient virtue (and some mandarins include themselves in that group) anyone and so forbid their use to all except for the Eunuch servants of Godunya.  There is much gossip over people furtively learning Goduunyan sorcery through the Wheel of Hemkarba which Godunya brought back from the west.

RQ3 had that weird Godunya's magic which was basically using rune points to do sorcerous manipulation of magic, and said to be draconic in nature. But there was of course the New Dragons' Ring under ShangHsa MHNBC with their Seshnegi sorcery somehow adapted to Yanoor's Kralorela. Sheng Seleris also brought Pelorian concepts to Kralorela and Kralorelan concepts and magics (and personnel) to Peloria. And then there are the Huan-to and their human servants with their adpara sorcery.

There is Sheradpara sorcery in what used to be Govmeranen's Realm, and according to RQ3 that even replaced spirit magic for the Parondpara of the East Isles. With the RQG approach that limits sorcery to a small portion of the population (unless the sorcerer caste is generous casting long term Enhance INT on their less giftet kin). 

I am still somewhat caught up in the notion that a lot of the martial arts may practice some form of sorcery, limited to their combat styles.

I wouldn't mind seeing more of a form of spell-casting that uses writing, or pre-written foci, to release sorcery. We know this from various east Asian fantasy movies where patches of calligraphed paper fly between sorcerers and demons. (And we find this in a very unlikely place, too - Egil Skallagrimsson carves runes into pieces of wood in a very similar manner.)

 

55 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Fonritan sorcery has a variety of sources - the oldest lore which they took from Tishamto, the revealed lore Garangordos recovered from the Vadeli Ruins and the newest lore which the Vadeli brought after the Opening.  The only saving grace is that the sorcerors plague each other, preventing anybody from becoming too dominant.  

I am not sure that Tishamto had sorcery, although I would be less surprised if the Veldang picked it up or even brought the core concept with them and spread it to the Doraddi. But Bolongo makes a singularly unsuitable candidate to be saddled with sorcery. A Bolongo-influenced anti-Pamalt-pantheon north of the Fensi mountains might, though, and that appears to be what Garangordos came from before his studies of Vadeli secrets.

The Fonritian sorerers did of course inherit a lot from the Malkioneranist God Learners (more so than from the original Abiding Book movement, IMO). The purge of the God Learners was complete and drastic in Umathela, but I wouldn't be surprised if at least some of the God Learner teachings survived unter the mantle of slavery. Fonrit is also where I would for remnants of Six-legged Empire sorcery.

 

55 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Vithelan sorcery about about purifiying the soul and is similar to Loskalmi sorcery except that most sages consider spells to fight Andins and other unsavory types to be a distraction.

I doubt that, really. Most Vithelan practices of magic are about dealing with the world, IMO, purifying the world to create conditions in which the sages can pass on their meditative wisdom.

There is of course the myth about sorcery coming from Meksornmali, and it is distinct from that of Babadi, one of the Adpara servants or allies of Bandan. (Taktari, lord of the stone monsters, sounds like another form of Mostali troubles in the east.) Point of contact with Danmalastan could have been a stray Kachisti colony, stray Vyimorni/Vadeli explorer-raiders, or Waertagi support bases at the furthest reaches of the waters of the Neliom currents (presumably also with Kachisti or Kadeniti pesonnel brought there on their ships).

We know about Sog's Ruins, which is situated on the shore carved by Worcha out of the land of Prax. It is a major feat of Waertagi land-bound engineering (a bit of a contradiction in terms, really), and appears to have been given up in favor of Nochet by the Silver Age. We do of course know about a colony of "Brithini" in the neighborhood, without surviving port structures for big Waertagi vessels. There may have been similar structures south of what remained after Worcha's rage had been spent against the Vingkotling lands, we just don't have any maps showing what went on there. The Waertagi might, and given that they weren't on good terms with the God Learners and impossible to infiltrate after Tanian's Victory, the Middle Sea Empire never managed to get that information (which would have been pretty useless for practical purposes). But then there was Teleos somewhere in that region, which nobody knows much about.

 

But, like with Kralorela, I see various schools of mystical warriors and sorcerous magicians banishing or trapping demonic entities, in the best tradition of also Korean cinema.

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