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Augmentations Usage Limits - RQG


Thorgarth

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While discussing the system with some friends clearly divergent interpretations of the limits imposed for the use of Passions and Runes as Augments arose. 

To make things simple one can use a given Passion, let´s say "Hate (Chaos)", only once per any given Session in any circumstance OR only once per any given scene and for any given task e.g. Be inspired for a combat scene against the forces of chaos at the beginning of the session, and then be inspired to try to bolster the moral of the village against such forces later in the session, OR just be able to be inspired by "Hate (Chaos") at the first scene?

I personally think  that in regard to Passions and Runes their use as augments  should be limited to once per session (although my interpretation of what the mechanics actually states is contrary to this. I think the rules allow for multiple uses of Runes and Passions to inspire the players, limited only to once per scene), though I find that logic falling when it comes to the use of skills as augmentation. In this case, and as long as such use is relevant and logic there should be no limit to the number of times any given skill can be used per session (with the limit of one per attempt at any given task, that is).

What do you guys think? And a clarification from THE GUYS would be most welcome. 

Edited by Thorgarth
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Page 144

Quote

Only one
augment may be attempted per ability, and an ability
can only be used once per session to augment a task
being attempted.

So it can only be used once per session. Seems pretty clear to me. It's a bit unfair to players who tend to play long sessions, I remember as a student we would play for 10 hours straight at a week-end. Relaxing it to once per scene is reasonable in my opinion.

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9 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Page 144

So it can only be used once per session. Seems pretty clear to me. It's a bit unfair to players who tend to play long sessions, I remember as a student we would play for 10 hours straight at a week-end. Relaxing it to once per scene is reasonable in my opinion.

My interpretation of such rule was that the once per session limits would apply at any given, read specific, task. Meaning you couldn´t apply it to the same task multiple times, not that you couldn´t apply it multiple times to different tasks being attempted on multiple scenes. Though, and I will stress this, that I actually think that the once per session limited, tout court.

The problem is that I find no reason whatsoever for such limitation to apply to skills, especially when being applied in cooperative effort, to help other characters with their tests (as long as it´s reasonable, feasible and logical use of such skill, obviously). 

And the mechanic does not differentiate in this point regarding it´s application to Passions/Runes and Skills, hence the doubt (to me). 

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... and in hindsight my interpretation may have been somewhat warped by the fact that the quick start didn´t impose any such limit, which led me to think, when I played the scenario, that the mechanics were too open to exploit, with players being able to use Runes and Passions to get inspired whenever the need arises through out the scenario.

That coupled with some phrases like "If the adventurer has already rolled to be inspired by a Rune or Passion during the situation at hand, they cannot try to be inspired again, even by a different Rune or Passion.", which actually seem redundant if indeed the system would only allow an ability to be used once per session (and by use one has to consider both a success and a failed use of an ability since it is stated that "(...)the augment and the primary ability are considered to happen simultaneously, on the same strike rank, and are both performed even if the augment is unsuccessful.") led me to believe that the limit imposed on page 144 only applied to any given task, not as an absolute limit of once/session regardless of what was being attempted.

In any case, if indeed the intention of the designers was to impose an absolute limit of once per session, I find that mechanic much more reasonable.  

 

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Quote

Only one
augment may be attempted per ability, and an ability
can only be used once per session to augment a task
being attempted.

 

7 hours ago, Thorgarth said:

My interpretation of such rule was that the once per session limits would apply at any given, read specific, task. Meaning you couldn´t apply it to the same task multiple times,

Hm, I hadn't thought of it being interpreted that way but you're right, it's ambiguous.

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8 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

So it can only be used once per session. Seems pretty clear to me. It's a bit unfair to players who tend to play long sessions

I think it is partially designed to keep players from going augment crazy and trying to bump up every task.  Some skills such as Meditate will just naturally take awhile anyway.  And inspirations might carry through an entire battle.  But as with rune points, the limit forces you to think strategically about where/when you want to augment another ability.

 

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it is the job of the GM to adjudicate the relevance of every augment attempt - including the timing and limits. The term 'session' is simply a handle as jajagappa says to suggest frequency. If I ran a complex scene that required 2-3 sessions to play out then I'd limit re-use until the scene is over. Likewise if I ran a long session which covered multiple scenes I'd reset the clock between each scene - but that's my style. Different GMs could be more generous or frugal - the key is relevance to the plot, keeping with the pace and respecting the results. 

One limit I would impose is that only one (pass or fail) argument can be active - if you PC blows an augment before a battle you can't try agin with a different Rune/Passion just to cancel a negative result.

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I really, really hate gamey (or, if you prefer, "narrative") limits like 'once per session'.  A session of heavy combat and such can be only a few hours of Glorantha time, while some gameplay sessions could represent multiple seasons of stuff going on.  No, for me the mechanical limit has to be IN GAME WORLD CONTEXT, full stop.

I fundamentally dislike the suggested pacing of RQG being one adventure per season.  That concept's directly into the wastebin in my campaign.  Stuff will happen as it happens driven by events...whether that's several sessions in a game week or two, or years pass.   My players tend to be driven by the events around them, and rarely does much time go by before someone needs their assistance if they're that competent.  Glorantha's just not that dull.

I agree with Psullie: you get one try with an augment, etc for a thing.  You can't try to be motivated by air, and then if that fails be motivated by fire in some other way, for the same thing.

This is going to be an incredibly important point for RQG going forward; too easy access to augments will trivialize them, while too-hard access will make them less relevant to the game than (IMO) they should be.  What I'd like to come up with - and it's still very much a mental work in progress - is for players to want husband their best augments for the most pressing thing (the fight against the boss, or the big confrontation, etc) per adventure, with probably 2-3 uses otherwise per player per adventure.  How I do that is yet to be determined....initially, I'm thinking of giving each character X points of rune-augment usages each high holy day (essentially filling their pool of usages to max once a year), and then get a subset of those usages back each time they conduct a worship service.  Again....mental work in progress.

Re augments and NPCs...that's a toughie.  For NPCs there's usually no tomorrow, so a potential for abuse vs. characters who naturally husband theirs.  I guess I'd make it mechanical somehow, ie roll an extra d20 whenever NPCs roll %; if they roll doubles AND that d20 is in excess of their body hp, that might trigger their check to use an augment the next meaningful/useful moment.

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When I played the QuickStart, we went nuts augmenting every single roll. I didn't think it was particularly a problem, but if that isn't the intent then I think the once per session makes sense--kind of a hero point sort of thing. For what constitutes a session, if it's a 10 hour marathon, I'd call a session break when the group broke to eat, which could be once or twice and is probably going to be follow some kind of natural break in the action. I'd also do a refresh anytime they're in a safe spot for a day or two whether that's in their village, at a temple, or just getting drunk at Gimpy's (though the safety of the latter is certainly up for debate).

 

Edited by Numtini
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On 6/2/2018 at 10:28 AM, Numtini said:

When I played the QuickStart, we went nuts augmenting every single roll. I didn't think it was particularly a problem...

That's exactly where I recognized it as a problem - I ran it for FreeRPG day last year, and pretty early in the adventure we as a table agreed to some limits on usage; not only was it sort of silly (anyone reasonably creative can come up with SOME use for SOME rune in pretty much any situation without too much stretching) to have augments everytime anything important was rolled for, it slowed down the activity as we interrupted the narrative to resolve the "subloop" of suggesting, ruling, then rolling on and applying augment results.

Certainly YGMV.  I expect this will vary wildly between play groups - some GMs won't have any issues with augments flying all over, while other groups GMs will be parsimonious and pedantic about their applicability.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 6/3/2018 at 1:26 AM, styopa said:

I fundamentally dislike the suggested pacing of RQG being one adventure per season.  That concept's directly into the wastebin in my campaign.  Stuff will happen as it happens driven by events...whether that's several sessions in a game week or two, or years pass.   My players tend to be driven by the events around them, and rarely does much time go by before someone needs their assistance if they're that competent.  Glorantha's just not that dull.

Totally agree with this. A week is a long time, and having my players sit around for the rest of the season resting is not what 'heroic' fiction is about.  Although there will be a tendancy to do that because all the training rules require a season to complete... experience ticks are infinitely faster and suggest a far different game style.  To me RQG rules tend to be quite 'multiple personality syndrome"  in places, and even have a few personalities left over from previous editions. It is annoying.

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2 hours ago, flynnkd said:

Totally agree with this. A week is a long time, and having my players sit around for the rest of the season resting is not what 'heroic' fiction is about.  Although there will be a tendancy to do that because all the training rules require a season to complete... experience ticks are infinitely faster and suggest a far different game style.  To me RQG rules tend to be quite 'multiple personality syndrome"  in places, and even have a few personalities left over from previous editions. It is annoying.

I think in RQG the assumption is that your character will spend the rest of their time doing their jobs. Characters have careers now that are what they do, they get an income from it, maintain a standard of living in the community, may manage a household, and generally are also members of a cult with obligations. I think the seasonal training and research options in the Between Adventures chapter are during spare time while the character is also doing their regular thing, rather than the exclusive 8 hours a day, 7 days a week dedicated practice as assumed in RQ2/3.

Edited by simonh
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Check out the Runequest Glorantha Wiki for RQ links and resources. Any updates or contributions welcome!

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31 minutes ago, simonh said:

I think in RQG the assumption is that your character will spend the rest of their time doing their jobs. Characters have careers now that are what they do, they get an income from it, maintain a standard of living in the community, may manage a household, and generally are also members of a cult with obligations. I think the seasonal training and research options in the Between Adventures chapter are during spare time while the character is also doing their regular thing, rather than the exclusive 8 hours a day, 7 days a week dedicated practice as assumed in RQ2/3.

Yep. Egil Skallagrimson spent most of his time running his farm, not going viking. The assumption is that in any season, if your adventurers want to train a skill, then they spend the season doing their occupation, regular cult activity, AND training that one skill - the GM should not try to track their activities hour by hour so that mini-max their time (as encouraged by RQ3).

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6 hours ago, Jeff said:

Yep. Egil Skallagrimson spent most of his time running his farm, not going viking. The assumption is that in any season, if your adventurers want to train a skill, then they spend the season doing their occupation, regular cult activity, AND training that one skill - the GM should not try to track their activities hour by hour so that mini-max their time (as encouraged by RQ3).

Egil Skallagrimson never once saw a broo nor ventured near Snakepipe Hollow, as far as I know.  😐 

It's not like it's graven in stone, just one possible approach.  (shrug) RQG is delightfully flexible enough that a GM can just change the premise and throw the idea of one adventure per season out the window.    Not everyone wants to play KoDP the RPG?

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