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flynnkd

Variable has no limit?

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3 hours ago, StephenMcG said:

the lack of caps on variable spells

Having played both, and having run RQ3 for many, many years, I don't recall ever having any player go beyond a Heal 6 as a highest variable point spell.  There were other spells they wanted. What I like with RQG is the cap based on CHA.  If you've got a CHA of 6 or 8, there's only so many spells you can get.  You want to spend it all on Protection 8, fine, but have fun when the spirits attack or you need some healing!

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7 hours ago, StephenMcG said:

Steve Long did it for the switch between 5th edition and 6th edition Hero System.  It was not every detail but a broad sweep of the design decisions and changes made.

I think that there is a decent need for a designers overview and the guys are doing a lot of work in introducing the new system, this would fit right in.  I think that not limiting variable spells is a broad change worth noting (along the lines of we decided to remove the caps on variable spells - it was trialled extensively in RQ3 and seemed to work).

There are so many versions and things going round, something rounding up the design decisions on where to break away from RQ2 as was would be an interesting read - there must have been a lot of hard decisions on how far to make it recognisable as RQ2 but enough to make it a modern take on the classic.

There are a non-trivial number of  "never-switched-to-RQ3"  RQ2 grognards, and both  "first-met-rq-in-rq3"  and  "tried-rq3-and-liked-it-better"  RQ3 grognards.  And LOADS of rq6 ...  uh ... converts.  And even a few MRQ folks, lurking quietly and hoping not to be noticed; but we can discount THEM; tainted with Chaos, one and all!    🙈

Still.

RQ2 / RQ3 / RQ6 all could claim some legitimacy as the "reference standard" for any "here's what's different in RQG" document, for various reasons.  Which to present???  "All the above" seems like the only reasonable answer; and that's just too unwieldy for the printed book.  An e-doc is the only viable option; as ever:  YGMV.

But I don't expect Chaosium to put a lot more effort into such an endeavor; I think we have gotten most of the "design decision" insight (that we are GOING to get) already, in the design-blog.   It is abundantly clear that nuChaosium is seriously intending a full-on reboot of the line.  RQG is the new Reference Standard, full stop.  Learn it and run it as-is.  Chaosium is soliciting new fans, aiming this edition at pleasing the Grognardia but even moreso, to be welcoming new players to join freely, without being burdened by the cruft of decades; and that precludes being too obsessive about documenting differences from old editions.

Fans are welcome to obsessively document all the delta-ms. they want for RQ2, RQ3, RQ6, MRQeither, etc etc etc.  And as a fan-site, BRPCentral is a fine repository of such a document (or documents).

Obviously, I don't speak for Chaosium; for all I know, someone in-house there is having their gamer-OCD sparked by this discussion and deciding "yeah, I'm gonna do that doc, and do it RIGHT."

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2 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Yeah, every time you needed to update and replace something you could just redo the relevant pages and replace the once in your book. That would be a great approach, especially if there was a way to work the binder into the cover. Although I expect the latter bit  might be too costly. 

Avalon Hill did that with Advanced Squad leader.  Later expansions added whole chapters, as well as usually 2-3 pages of replacement pages with clarifications and rewritten rules.

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On 6/7/2018 at 2:41 PM, simonh said:

So you're seriously suggesting the new game should cut some of it's current content and replace it with lists of all the differences between it an every previous edition of RuneQuest? Which material would you like them to ditch? How much detail would you expect this to go into - every spell description that's different, every skill description change, weapon stats? For what it's worth, RQ3 never did anything like this.

I am simply commenting on a problem I have discovered, and one solution that Chaosium could have solved by providing a guide. They went to the trouble of providing a conversion guide so they must have identified the issue. As to how they provide this I have no opinion, other than I would like to see one, mainly because my players are very unlikely to absorb the new book in a period less than months. So that means I will be solely responsible, which means I will miss things (like this very point), which means my players will gleefully spring it on me at an appropriate time that causes the most discomfort... bastids that they are :)

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3 minutes ago, flynnkd said:

I am simply commenting on a problem I have discovered, and one solution that Chaosium could have solved by providing a guide. They went to the trouble of providing a conversion guide so they must have identified the issue. As to how they provide this I have no opinion, other than I would like to see one, mainly because my players are very unlikely to absorb the new book in a period less than months. So that means I will be solely responsible, which means I will miss things (like this very point), which means my players will gleefully spring it on me at an appropriate time that causes the most discomfort... bastids that they are :)

That's all par for the course. Whenever we switch to a new edition things get missed and it takes awhile to catch on. In fact, it tends to be harder/take longer to adapt to a new edition than to learn a different RPG, as we know most of it already so there is less reason to look stuff up. 

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In any case, if aspects of the current rules are working well for you, there’s no big deal to push to every aspect of the new system. Maybe it would be better to adopt it subsystem by subsystem. So switch from old style Rune Magic to recoverable Rune Points. If you have a shaman character, let them start adopting some of the new shamanic powers, then switch to the new spirit combat system. That could be a more manageable transition path.

Of course if you’re starting a new campaign with new characters, that’s harder to do.

The switch to RQ 3 took a while for us. We were still misinterpreting rules years after switching. It just takes a bit of discussion and good will. In the end though, the GM is there to arbitrate the rules and it’s your game, not mine or Greg’s, or Jeff’s or Jason’s.

Simon Hibbs

Edited by simonh
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Agreed on the difficulty of switching between editions as compared to switching between systems.  🙂

I dont think that there needs to be a guide/document etc.  It would have been nice to have some designer notes talking about some of the decisions made (peeking behind the design curtain!) but I think the series of videos that are being done would be an excellent place to have one focussed on the elements used from across the RQ family of games.  I also think that, becuase of the number of (very different) decisions made in previous editions and the diverse experience of those that might buy the game, the writing of the rules would have benefitted (in a few places) by being a bit more explicit in the rules utilised in RQG.

I am old enough and ugly enough to rip out the things I want and add them to the polyglot of rules that I use in my Glorantha game and that is much easier when I am running the game for the friends I have gamed with for over 20 years.  A less experienced/confident GM and/or a new group or a convention game and things get harder.

 

Stephen

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12 hours ago, flynnkd said:

I am simply commenting on a problem I have discovered, and one solution that Chaosium could have solved by providing a guide. They went to the trouble of providing a conversion guide so they must have identified the issue. As to how they provide this I have no opinion, other than I would like to see one, mainly because my players are very unlikely to absorb the new book in a period less than months. So that means I will be solely responsible, which means I will miss things (like this very point), which means my players will gleefully spring it on me at an appropriate time that causes the most discomfort... bastids that they are :)

The keyword here is 'retcon.' :D

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21 hours ago, g33k said:

There are a non-trivial number of  "never-switched-to-RQ3"  RQ2 grognards, and both  "first-met-rq-in-rq3"  and  "tried-rq3-and-liked-it-better"  RQ3 grognards.  And LOADS of rq6 ...  uh ... converts.  And even a few MRQ folks, lurking quietly and hoping not to be noticed; but we can discount THEM; tainted with Chaos, one and all!    🙈

Yeah, and I think it going to be a bit of a problem as far as a fanbase goes. Rather than have one clear ancestor to fall back on, RQG has several, and aspects of the game that might appeal to one group might put off another group, or groups. 

Personally, I'm sitting on the fence waiting for RQG to pull me in.

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19 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

...Rather than have one clear ancestor to fall back on, RQG has several, and aspects of the game that might appeal to one group might put off another group, or groups. 

We’re seeing this already, with RQ2 people upset about some of the changes, and RQ3 people upset with the system going back to some RQ2 mechanics (even though it still uses plenty of RQ3 stuff).

I’m really not bothered about any of that. What’s there works absolutely fine, and if I do have personal preferences of aternate mechanics here and there, I’ll just house rule it. I’ve done that for pretty much every game I’ve ever run anyway, so eh. I’m just really happy with all the cool excellent new stuff, and that it’s all packaged in a fine coherent whole. It makes it so much easier to mod that way.

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On 6/8/2018 at 12:35 AM, jajagappa said:

Having played both, and having run RQ3 for many, many years, I don't recall ever having any player go beyond a Heal 6 as a highest variable point spell.  There were other spells they wanted. What I like with RQG is the cap based on CHA.  If you've got a CHA of 6 or 8, there's only so many spells you can get.  You want to spend it all on Protection 8, fine, but have fun when the spirits attack or you need some healing!

In RQ3, a limb is cut off, maimed or mangled,  if you do double the points, so someone with a 9 point leg needs Heal 9 to put it back together again, at least, that's how we played it.

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On 6/6/2018 at 11:11 AM, flynnkd said:

So variable spells have no limit now?  You can have Protection 8?  SRs are the only limit for casting... have I got that right?

And cost is per point, no accumulation cost?

Yes. Reading the whole thread, it is something you are not keen on, in which case just use the RQ2 stacking/variable limits. It won;t change the game at all doing that.

However, RQ2 variable spells had varying limits for variable spells. Some spells were limited to 4 points, others weren't. So, I could cast Dispel Magic 9 in RQ2 but only Bladesharp 4.

I did like the increasing cost of variable spells in RQ2, but the RQG economy is very much a low-coin economy, so I am not sure what the costs for Heal 4 should be, with an RQ2-like spell progression.

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A house rule we used for quite some time is that initiates can get up to 2pts of a spell.  If you had half the requirements for rune lord or priest, you could get up to 4 pts of a spell (and access to spells like Fireblade) and only rune lords and rune priests could get 6 pt spells.

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On 6/6/2018 at 11:40 PM, styopa said:

8 point spell them is only a 16 point spirit on average, easily defeated with moderate spirit screen...

A POW 1 character under the current rules  could get  an 8 point spell by sweeping the floors for a week  and least there was some restriction under RQ3.

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2 minutes ago, waltshumate said:

A POW 1 character under the current rules  could get  an 8 point spell by sweeping the floors for a week  and least there was some restriction under RQ3.

Except he can't cast it because he only has 1 MP.

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On 6/8/2018 at 12:35 AM, jajagappa said:

Having played both, and having run RQ3 for many, many years, I don't recall ever having any player go beyond a Heal 6 as a highest variable point spell.  There were other spells they wanted. What I like with RQG is the cap based on CHA.  If you've got a CHA of 6 or 8, there's only so many spells you can get.  You want to spend it all on Protection 8, fine, but have fun when the spirits attack or you need some healing!

The  spell was cap in RQ3, it used INT instead of CHA.

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1 minute ago, waltshumate said:

He can if he has Mp storage,

True, but then he has to get that first.  And it has to be enough to hold 8+ MP's.  And he casts it once, and it's going to take awhile to replenish it.  And in the meantime, I send my allied spirit to attack him in spirit combat, or I cast my Dismiss Magic rune spell, or attack him with Disruptions.

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On 6/9/2018 at 11:21 AM, soltakss said:

In RQ3, a limb is cut off, maimed or mangled,  if you do double the points, so someone with a 9 point leg needs Heal 9 to put it back together again, at least, that's how we played it.

Reattaching limbs in  RQ3 required  limbs to be healed to positive hit points within 10 Melee Rounds, there was no specific level of heal required.

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2 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

True, but then he has to get that first.  And it has to be enough to hold 8+ MP's.  And he casts it once, and it's going to take awhile to replenish it.  And in the meantime, I send my allied spirit to attack him in spirit combat, or I cast my Dismiss Magic rune spell, or attack him with Disruptions.

And he can send his pet dinosaur to step on your head before you do all that.

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3 hours ago, waltshumate said:

And he can send his pet dinosaur to step on your head before you do all that.

🙂 True enough!

My overall point, though, is that while someone can gain a high-powered variable spell, there are costs to doing so.  Is it really necessary to have an arbitrary cap there?

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There was a post on G+ that was interesting also....

  • p.366 "Spirits may be bound into a magic crystal, or into a specially prepared object or animal as described in the Binding Enchantment section (page 249). The binder of a spirit
    can use any spirit magic the spirit possesses and the magic points of the spirit to fuel spells."
  •  
    +Alexei McDonald So the implication is you get access to whatever spells the spirit already had, rather than being able to "store" your own spells in it. Fine by me, I expect cult spirits are available to provide this service, in return for diligent cult service.
     
     
    Does it say anywhere that you can access a Spirits CHA to store spells, or is that option gone now?  What about spirits with INT?
     
Edited by flynnkd

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On 6/10/2018 at 1:09 PM, waltshumate said:

A POW 1 character under the current rules  could get  an 8 point spell by sweeping the floors for a week  and least there was some restriction under RQ3.

Is that actually the case, or a bit of hyperbole? 

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20 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Is that actually the case, or a bit of hyperbole? 

The latter, of course. I think he's followed the logic "There was a restriction based on winning a Spirit combat... that is gone now... therefore a POW 1 person can get an 8 point spell!" Which in my mind is homing in on the most ridiculous example just for the sake of it. It's a common Internet discussion tactic, and one that I must admit to having been guilty of myself at tines.

The way in which is specifically hyperbollocks is that it says "...an initiate can learn spirit magic from the temple. Cult spirit magic is typically half the listed price. Every fifth year, each initiate is entitled to learn 1 point of cult spirit magic for free."

I can't find this "listed price", though. That line may be a dangling reference to an old rule.

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