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RQG: how much RQ3 still in it?


BWP

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RQ:G has great art and in colour and the best layout for any edition. But beyond that, which is saying something, is how it integrates the world and game together. In that it stands head and shoulders above RQ3 and RQ2, which is definitely saying something. 

A God Learner reductionist of the game to a list of rules will always miss this point. However, those who got how the game and world worked together in RQ2 will get what RQ:G has done, and they will be well rewarded for it. 

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RQ2 was 120 pages in length, including 18 pages on "monsters" and very little glorantha in the book. RQ Classic added some material and changed the formatting slightly so it is 144 pages. I don't think most people would consider the Elder Races very "playable" as PCs in RQ2 based on what was in the rulebook. Yes, you had the stats, but nothing on their cults and culture. It's like comparing the Troll info in RQ2 to what's in TrollPak, which made Trolls playable and fun as PCs. 

I think it worth pointing out that the RQ2 softcover B&W rulebook was $12 in 1980. In today's money that is $34.50. The full color hardcover RQG is $55 for three times the page count.

Edited by Rick Meints

Hope that Helps,
Rick Meints - Chaosium, Inc.

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4 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

 

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

Sorry to rant, and I don't mean to knock the game, I don't know enough about it yet to really judge if fairly, but why should someone who already has RQ2, RQ3 and the supplements buy RQG? Not for three pages on languages. Nor for 100 pages of art (We don't game art).

 

That's a fair question, no problem. If you're perfectly happy with the games you have, stick with them. You'll be fine. RQG is designed to be highly compatible with RQ2 specifically in terms of stats, but it's pretty close to RQ3 as well, so you should just be bale to pick up scenarios and such and use them with minimal conversion so you should be able to benefit from  the revival of the game anyway.

In terms of what the new edition brings to the table, you're right that some stuff is just adapted to the new game. Other games have had character history systems, but now we have one for Dragon Pass characters, with game-able homeland details. We have three different ways runes are brought directly into the game mechanics. We have a detailed and fully worked out shamanism system, mated with a much more complete and gameable spirit combat system. The skills selection and details are much more complete and useable than RQ2 or RQ3. We also now have a decent sorcery system.

Of course it's still Runequest, so a lot of stuff is similar or the same but there's no way you could publish it as a rules update, there are just too many tweaks, fixes and optimisations throughout.

As for the art, for a lot of games I can see your point, but RQG takes the integration of art, game mechanics and setting to a whole new level. Some of the game mechanics are directly illustrated, so for example the section on strike ranks is illustrated with a series of warriors with different length weapons. The section on spirit combat has a full page depiction of a spirit combat battle that's also an illustration of a scene from the character diary. The art in the game bring the system and the setting alive like no other game I've seen. OK, some people values that, others don't, but this is a core book published for the market of 2018. If RQ is going to become a top tier RPG it has to have top tier production values, and achieving that will benefit all of us whatever edition of the rules we use.

Simon Hibbs

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Check out the Runequest Glorantha Wiki for RQ links and resources. Any updates or contributions welcome!

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28 minutes ago, Rick Meints said:

RQ2 was 120 pages in length, including 18 pages on "monsters" and very little glorantha in the book. RQ Classic added some material and changed the formatting slightly so it is 144 pages. I don't think most people would consider the Elder Races very "playable" as PCs in RQ2 based on what was in the rulebook. Yes, you had the stats, but nothing on their cults and culture. It's like comparing the Troll info in RQ2 to what's in TrollPak, which made Trolls playable and fun as PCs. 

I think it worth pointing out that the RQ2 softcover B&W rulebook was $12 in 1980. In today's money that is $34.50. The full color hardcover RQG is $55 for three times the page count.

They were perfectly playable to my group, we didn't care if there was a lack of information on culture or cults for the elder races because we could just invent our own stuff if something was missing our look it up online.

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2 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Sorry to rant, and I don't mean to knock the game, I don't know enough about it yet to really judge if fairly, but why should someone who already has RQ2, RQ3 and the supplements buy RQG? Not for three pages on languages. Nor for 100 pages of art (We don't game art).

I don't really care about artwork in a book, normally, I say "That's nice" and skip over to the real stuff, but the artwork in this is truly stupendous, at least in my opinion, and actually adds to the desirability of the book. It adds an extra dimension to those who want to imagine what the world looks like.

I am a long-term fan of RQ3 and have not abandoned it, in the face of MRQI, MRQII, RQ6, Legend or Mythras, all of which had good points (Yes, even MRQI) but none struck me as being anywhere near as good for me as RQ3. RQM does seem as good, if not better, for me than RQ3. If I started a new campaign, I would use RQG, not RQ3. However, I would use Revolution skills as they are so much better for what I want to do (and probably use Revolution's Advantages and Opposed Roll Pools). If I hadn't seen Revolution,  I'd use RQG in full.

Now, that is a personal statement from me and I am aware that my expoerience of playing RuneQuest is probably not the same as everyone's, but if an old RQ3 grognard like me can be wowed and made to change my Favourite version of RuneQuest, then I reckon it is worth a shot, at least as a PDF.

 

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Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

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Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here

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2 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

but nothing posted here in the past on in any of the reviews has won me over yet. In fact, quite the opposite.

It's quite clear that this product isn't for you. It's been available as a PDF for over a week now and it sounds like you still haven't bought it, but are more than willing to continue nitpicking. Please go back to your previous versions and stop whinging or buy it. It's only $28/£21 and that's not a lot IMO for a good quality PDF. Once you have it you can then complain about it, you can then get a refund.

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16 minutes ago, David Scott said:

It's quite clear that this product isn't for you. It's been available as a PDF for over a week now and it sounds like you still haven't bought it, but are more than willing to continue nitpicking. Please go back to your previous versions and stop whinging or buy it. It's only $28/£21 and that's not a lot IMO for a good quality PDF. Once you have it you can then complain about it, you can then get a refund.

Now, now, I thought we were all being nice ...

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Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

www.soltakss.com/index.html

Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here

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I misintpreted Rick Meints message. I want to apologize to him and make it clear that my previous statement was in error. I'm going to edit it out now. 

 

Except someone else beat me to it. 

Edited by Atgxtg
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Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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1 hour ago, David Scott said:

It's quite clear that this product isn't for you. It's been available as a PDF for over a week now and it sounds like you still haven't bought it

So I have to buy something in the first week that it's out? Does that apply to just me or should we pull all PDFs for sale after seven days? C'mon. And I wasn't nitpicking. I was inquiring about what was in the book, and what wasn't, and then explaining my reactions. But okay, I'll go back to my previous versions, and stay clear of RQG. 

 

 

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18 hours ago, Jeff said:

In 35 years of playing RuneQuest, I've seen only one disarm attempt (back in the early days of RQ3). I've seen scores of attempts to line up into a shield wall or phalanx (everywhere from battles to trying to form a line in Snake Pipe Hollow). Jason and I cut out Disarm because both of us consider it to be something that rarely gets used and isn't particularly key to the genre. We'll have notes on it in the GM Book, but given that just about every adult in Dragon Pass knows how to form up into a phalanx (at least because of militia training), I do think that it is at least significant for the genre to have some idea how to do that in the core book.

 

17 hours ago, Jeff said:

Crazy! Seriously, in 35 years I can count the number of times I have seen those tactics used on the fingers of one hand. I've seen aimed shots used more with the new edition (large because adventurers tend to start with better combat skills than in previous editions) than ever before, but disarms, knockback, stunning attacks have in my experience (and my experience is broad and varied) been about as rare as the proverbial hen's teeth. The new RuneQuest is the size of the Keeper's Book (which was as big as we were going to let it get), and so what rules 

But that's why there is a Gamemasters Book coming out - an opportunity to give more options and tools. 

OK, I'm not that far into the PDF yet (have to work 😐), but scrolling to that area I can see reason for the frustration. 

With as much as the deadlines of combat is emphasized, and alternatives to killing advised, less-lethal methods of succeeding in combat should have been included in the main book. You have no guarantees that players will have access to the other books. You have no guarantees that GMs will buy the GMs book. The new book already has tons more info that any previous edition, they might just go with that.  The lack of less-lethal methods is an oversight. 

While the breadth and description of the languages are very nice, much of that information (at least in this detailed a form) should have been someplace else, such as the Bestiary (Auld Wymish, Beastspeech, Darktongue, Aldryami, Mostali, Seatongue), or perhaps the Cults book (Earthtongue, Firespeech, Seatongue, Stormspeech).

Now should anyone think that I'm not a Gloranthan fan, I can say that my Guide sits proudly on my bookcase. I may not be able to 

There are other areas as well that could have been trimmed (moved to downloads) if fitting other rules were an issue.

Should anyone think that I'm not a Gloranthan fan, I can say that my Guide sits proudly on my bookcase. I may not be able to recite chapter and verse as may can, I still love the world. 

Now all of that that being said, this book is beautiful, far beyond my expectations in presentation. I will be buying it.

SDLeary

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16 hours ago, soltakss said:

A surprising amount.

"Surprisingly little", you mean.

16 hours ago, soltakss said:

 

 

16 hours ago, soltakss said:

If you liked the changes brought in for RQ3 then you will probably like the rules in RQG.

It's not looking promising.  Given that the designer has based it on his "wide and varied experience" that seems to have consisted of only ever playing the game one way and not paying attention to people who played it a different way ... well, my RuneQuest will definitely vary.

16 hours ago, soltakss said:

 

Some things are different. 

  • The Resistance Table goes up to 95, as in RQ2, instead of 99, as in RQ3. 

Poor choice IMO.

16 hours ago, soltakss said:

 

  • Divine Magic is Rune magic, as in RQ2.

Eh.  Potato, tomato.

16 hours ago, soltakss said:

 

  • Sorcery is enough like RQ3 to be easy to convert, but different enough to fit into RQG better

If Sorcery is ANYTHING like RQ3 Sorcery, then it will be a profound failure.  I want a Sorcery system that works.

16 hours ago, soltakss said:

 

So ... I can't seem to work out how to split a quote box down into separate statements.  What am I missing?

Edited by BWP

"I want to decide who lives and who dies."

Bruce Probst

Melbourne, Australia

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15 minutes ago, BWP said:

So ... I can't seem to work out how to split a quote box down into separate statements.  What am I missing?

Go to the end of the line or where you want to split the conversation, and hit your enter key twice.

SDLeary

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1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

I was thinking of capturing prisoners for ransom. 

Yes, or perhaps they are the last alive and you need them for questioning.

Though I don't like the mechanic, Mythras/RQ6 has the Combat Special Effect of Compel Surrender.

SDLeary

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In case it wasn't already clear, as the OP of this thread I want to make it clear that at no point did I introduce "price" or "value for money" or any sort of "economic" factor into the discussion.  I will be buying RQG as soon as I can obtain the printed edition.  (PDF only products do not interest me unless they are relatively small, because I will want to print them out.)  (For that matter I'm still waiting to buy 13G and the Glorantha Sourcebook!)

The only criticism along those lines that I would make is that I'm not sure that the RQG volume sufficiently emphasises that it is not "complete in one volume".  Now I'm sure we're all familiar with Certain RPG Games that only "work" once you have purchased a minimum number of rulebooks, but so far as I am aware those Other Games make it very clear that just buying one of the books will not get you very far.  I understand completely why RQG has been spread over multiple volumes and I have no inherent problem with that approach; but I don't think that we want a newcomer to the game who sees it sitting on a shelf and grabs it wants to get any unpleasant surprises once he sits down to start reading it.

I also think that comments along the lines of "if you haven't bought it already then you're not a true fan and we don't need you around here" are grossly over-the-top and a very good way of making sure people don't get involved in the game.  I'm not interested in "should RQG even exist?" discussions, and I'm even less interested in "if you don't want to join our club we don't want you as a member anyway" discussions.

"I want to decide who lives and who dies."

Bruce Probst

Melbourne, Australia

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5 minutes ago, SDLeary said:

Go to the end of the line or where you want to split the conversation, and hit your enter key twice.

Thank you!

 

"I want to decide who lives and who dies."

Bruce Probst

Melbourne, Australia

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If only the core book, monsters book and  GM book format had been well established in the hobby from the early days by a dominant product, estabilising a well known set of expectations around the many games published that way. Oh well ;)

Seriously though, that’s a fairly hypothetical issue. I see plenty of people wanting what seems like hundreds of pages of extra material in the book, but it’s pretty well spelled out what is in there and the product roadmap has been clearly communicated. It’s not like the combat resolution tables have been saved for the GM book.

Edited by simonh

Check out the Runequest Glorantha Wiki for RQ links and resources. Any updates or contributions welcome!

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2 hours ago, BWP said:

The only criticism along those lines that I would make is that I'm not sure that the RQG volume sufficiently emphasises that it is not "complete in one volume".  Now I'm sure we're all familiar with Certain RPG Games that only "work" once you have purchased a minimum number of rulebooks, but so far as I am aware those Other Games make it very clear that just buying one of the books will not get you very far.  I understand completely why RQG has been spread over multiple volumes and I have no inherent problem with that approach; but I don't think that we want a newcomer to the game who sees it sitting on a shelf and grabs it wants to get any unpleasant surprises once he sits down to start reading it.

Honest to god, I think its complete enough. Yeah, there's no disarm rule and no monster statistics. But thats not necessary for a book. It has the necessary components to create enemies, just human ones. And being limited to human enemies is entirely within the scope of a adventure or even campaign. Almost, caveat coming:

The free preview bestiary contains the 'common' enemies/playable races of setting and ALMOST all you need to expand a bit (Ducks, trolls, trollkin, runners, broos and horses) EXCEPT and my biggest gripe... Praxian animals and to a lesser extent Yinkin. It feels like including praxians in the book at all is pretty much pointless if you don't include their herdbeasts in the preview bestiary pdf. If there's any serious oversight in my opinion, its that one. Is it a gamebreaker? Not really. We have that big free Mythras encounter generator where I can quickly say "I want a high llama" and randogen one with a button click. So what it has slightly different skill names or compressed skills, its not hard to fix that.

2 minutes ago, simonh said:

If only the core book, monsters book and  GM book format had been well established in the hobby from the early days by a dominant product, estabilising a well known set of expectations around the many games published that way. Oh well ;)

Ya know, you're right, there.

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On 6/9/2018 at 8:58 AM, Atgxtg said:

Just how how Jason considered Worlds of Wonder to be his core BRP rules.

I never knew that. Thanks for the insight!

My memory, though, is that my first exposure to BRP was Stormbringer (1st ed), then Call of Cthulhu, RQ2, Pendragon,  ElfQuest, Superworld, Ringworld, RQ3, and then someone in my group GMed several sessions of Worlds of Wonder. (Yes, years after it appeared.) 

From WoW I borrowed the superpowers system for the Basic Roleplaying book because it was much simpler than that in SW, but that was all I took from it. To this day, I don't even own a physical copy. I have photocopies of Magic World and Super World, and a nearly-destroyed copy of Future World found in a used bookstore. 

I've been telling everyone for years that Stormbringer 1st ed is my favorite version of BRP, but I guess I was wrong. :)

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7 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

I was thinking of capturing prisoners for ransom. 

I'm afraid I cannot condone that.

We still need them on-staff to produce the Bestiary GM/Campaign book, GM Pack, etc.

Of course, by the time the line is that-far advanced... you'll NEED the ransom, just to buy-in...

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14 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Let me try to explain my reaction. In RQ2 cramming lots of additional stuff in the appendix in 4 point font for what was already a fairly complete (cults being the one big omission) 144 page book is something I consider as a perk or freebie. Spending 3 pages of that in a 446 page rulebook that lacks even a token bestiary or the complete rules for combat I consider to be a waste. Basically something more important should have taken up that space. 

Uhhh...? I don't think you have a valid point, here...  Sorry, man, but  (a) 3 pages isn't gonna TOUCH the needs of a bestiary, and (b) Chaosium promptly added a 16-page e-Bestiary, and (c) the full Bestiary is coming soon.  It IS a complete combat system; we just have one weapon mentioning an option apparently to be released in later books (honestly, my take would be to edit-out that feature of that weapon, and re-introduce it when/if the disarm-rules are introduced).

15 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

It looks to me like Chaoiusm is taking an RPG that it's already sold to us several times, breaking it up into multiple books, and adding a bunch of fluff to get people to pay ten times what they paid when they bought it the first time around. 

Wow.  That's... that's pretty hardcore aggro.  I mean, seriously:  these guys are gamers and fans; they have been loving RQ and Glorantha for a long, long time.  And ponied-up a TON of their own cash to pull Chaosium out of the grave.  And you accuse them of... that???  The balance of the evidence is not just "no" but "HELL no" (and they have the Uz to prove it).

15 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

What's in RQG that's not in other Chosium products to make us want to buy it? Incorporating Passions from Pendragon doesn't wow me-Pendragon Pass came out decades ago. Reworking the old Trait system from Pendragon/Thieves World into the Rune % doesn't wow me either. Greg could have drawn on Pendragon for Glorantha back in the 80s. What's in that 446 page book that hasn't been in a Chaosium product before that will make people want to play RQG?

It is the best-ever intro to Glorantha for newbies.  I'm sure you've seen the perennial threads on the Web of "Glorantha WTF how duz I even PLAY this thing???"  For the first time in DECADES, we have a decent chance to pull in new blood to our extra-niche-y corner of our niche hobby.

Notwithstanding that Traits/Passions have been in other Chaosium products, they haven't previously been Glorantha-fied & integrated into a coherent whole.  Care to point out where I (anyone) can buy Pendragon Pass these days?  Where anyone who's NOT a RQ grognard could ever even BEGIN to source-together all these bits and pieces... or why they'd want to?

15 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

... Nor for 100 pages of art (We don't game art).

Unless we DO game art.  This book sets a new standard amongst all RQ's -- possibly in the entire industry -- for use of art beyond "pretty pictures" and even "mood-evocative" pieces (though it has those, too).  It follows the "picture is worth a thousand words" maxim and actually USES the art as part of the rulebook, illustrating and clarifying the text.

But even if you disagree, even if you STILL "don't game art..."  That's you, and others have other opinions on this, FrEx http://www.sirlarkins.com/blog/2018/6/3/art-in-rpgs

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8 hours ago, BWP said:

If Sorcery is ANYTHING like RQ3 Sorcery, then it will be a profound failure.  I want a Sorcery system that works.

Well, there are differences with RQ3 : sorcerers need to master "runes" and "techniques" before learning any spell, which means you can't just read a spell in a book and learn it, and there aren't skills beyond the spell skills anymore. But Free INT is still the limit on the parameters you put in a spell, and you need to learn one skill per spell.

MP cost was also increased, as you need at least 2 or 3 MPs to cast one, and duration and range costs are different. The equivalent to sorcery spell matrix is also now automatically learned when you learn a sorcery spell.

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