Jump to content
Godhi

Orlanth and Ernalda in the Great Winter

Recommended Posts

I would like to begin a Runequest campaign taking place in 1621, allowing the Heroes to take part in such great adventures as Argrath and the rescue of the Giant's Cradle as well as the early battles of liberation against the Red Empire. However, such a campaign would take place during the Great Winter, when Orlanth and Ernalda were "killed" and sent to the Underworld by the Red Goddess.
What effect--if any--would this have on Rune Magic and Divine Intervention connected to their two cults? Would worshipers be able to call on Orlanth and Ernalda for Divine Intervention?
Would worshipers be restricted to one point Rune Magic, or would their magic become cyclical in nature, allowing them to cast certain spells only during Earth or Storm Season or on certain days of the week?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Whichever one you want.

I know it's a handwavey YGWV answer but it's the case. I'd say you should mix your ideas together personally. Have rune magic be completely expended during non-elemental seasons so that Orlanth worshippers can only really regain magic during Storm Season and Ernaldans during Earth.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is the major reference to this in Orlanth is Dead:

Quote

 

It is morning. Suddenly, the wind stops. Everyone in Sanar freezes with surprise, indecision , fear, and then horror. No wind 
blows, and the few clouds in the sky stand absolutely still and do not move or change shape. No magic works if it comes from Orlanlh, Ernalda, or their subcults. None: no feats or affinities work, no wyter speaks, no umbroli wind blows. Kolal's shamans still can use the spirits they have already bound, but when they Try to contact others, they find nothing, not even spirit·air, a very absence of presence. 
(Later, people discover that Valind's magic also does not work.) Today, and over the next few days, everyone notices that it is harder for them to do anything without being winded. This affects all the worshippers of the Orlanth and Emalda pantheon. Most people in and around Sartar, Heartland, Esrolia, and Wenelia are affected. (Even those foreign lands where Orlanth receives sacrifice, such as Prax , Ralios, Fronela, and Umathela).are touched, bUt those lands are outside the scope of this book.) 
However, this does not affect everyone equally: worshippers of foreign deities are completely unaffected. "Broyan is dead," people say. It seems true. Those with weak religious experience begin to quit their ancestral worship and embrace any new religion that offers protection. The first to benefit is the Lunar cult of the Seven Mothers. 
No contact with Orlanth or Ernalda or their subcults suceeds. Divination receives no answers except death , doom, and absence of the deities. 

Deities With Magic
See Hero Wars and storm Tribe for details of these deities. 
Major Deifies: Chalana Arroy, Elmal, Eurmal, Heler, Humakt, issaries, Kolat (to an extent), Lhankor Mhy, Odayla , Urox, Yinkin. 
Minor Deifies: Ana GDr, BarnLar, Braslalos, Donandar (except Drogarsi and Skovara subcults), Engizi, Guslbran, Kero Fin, Maran, Pelaskos, Redalda, Rigsdal. 

 

the answer is much worse than you suggest. No rune magic works. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Godhi said:

What effect--if any--would this have on Rune Magic and Divine Intervention connected to their two cults? Would worshipers be able to call on Orlanth and Ernalda for Divine Intervention?

Nope.  As David comments:

9 hours ago, David Scott said:

the answer is much worse than you suggest. No rune magic works. 

On top of that, I'd rule that no Worship services work for either - they cannot contact those gods.  And that means no replenishment of any Rune Points associated with them.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ouch. That means no Divine Intervention for their worshipers, either. I'll have to ask my players if they like this idea since from a roleplaying point of view, it gives their characters all the more  reason to fight against the Lunar Empire. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Godhi said:

Ouch. That means no Divine Intervention for their worshipers, either. I'll have to ask my players if they like this idea since from a roleplaying point of view, it gives their characters all the more  reason to fight against the Lunar Empire. 

They join other cults and use their magic instead. It’s what my players did.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Similarly, some subcult magic would work and some wouldn't. I'd say that cults such as Barntar would still provide magic that worked, even though Barntar is the son of Orlanth and Ernalda, he is a different entity. Simialrly, if you have joined the Magical Weapons Subcults, then your magic might work, as they derive from the Magical Weapons themselves. Associate Magic would still work, if given from someone other than Orlanth/Ernalda.

But, in RQG, you have Rune Points for your cult, so I would say that you couldn't use/replensih your Orlanth or Ernalda Rune Points, so you might not be able to cast Subcult or Associate Cult Rune Magic unless you had Rune Points for the subcult or Associate Cult.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Godhi said:

Ouch. That means no Divine Intervention for their worshipers, either. I'll have to ask my players if they like this idea since from a roleplaying point of view, it gives their characters all the more  reason to fight against the Lunar Empire. 

That is correct, no DI.  This IS the Great Darkness.

But that also means it's a time to find others who are also trying to survive.  Shamans can access the Spirit World readily, and there are still Kolating air spirits.  Yelmalio (and Elmal/Rigsdal) has magic - get help from the powers of the stars.  The rivers, if they are not frozen over, may have some magic.  And there is magic in Darkness - time to ally some trolls, as long as they don't decide to put you in the food pot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

  And there is magic in Darkness - time to ally some trolls, as long as they don't decide to put you in the food pot.

Or, in extremis you could always just go looking to see if you can bring back Arkat.  That always fixes things nicely.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, styopa said:

Or, in extremis you could always just go looking to see if you can bring back Arkat.  That always fixes things nicely.

Wasn't the great darkness absence of magic caused by Orlanth down in Hell for just such a reason? 

 

The Windstop is an opportunity to use Vingkotling Age or Gray Age/Silver Age magics to survive. Never the Great Darkness with the breakdown of reality.

The Ice Age was actually lessened when the Chaos Horde parted the Glacier and marched south. It was lessened even more when the Spike imploded and Zzabur's Great Blast shattered Valind's hold on Brithos.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Wasn't the great darkness absence of magic caused by Orlanth down in Hell for just such a reason? 

Well, yes and no. Orlanth went to Hell several times in the God Time and his magic wasn't stopped. 

The Greater Darkness was not caused by Orlanth disappearing, but by the Spike exploding. The Lesser Darkness was caused by Orlanth killing Yelm the Emperor.

But, killing Orlanth and sending him to Hell has certainly caused his magic to stop.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, soltakss said:

Well, yes and no. Orlanth went to Hell several times in the God Time and his magic wasn't stopped. 

Stealing the Sandals of Darkness? Possibly predated the discovery of Death.

Other than the possibility of that, I don't know of any visit to Hell. The Uz had no prior animosity to the Storm Tribe other than competing for food.

Orlanth passing through the Gates of Dusk was the one time Orlanth went to Hell, taking Death on himself, and that stopped his magic and intercessions. Storm Brothers may have provided a lesser service, but most of that petered out as things worsened.

Just now, soltakss said:

The Greater Darkness was not caused by Orlanth disappearing, but by the Spike exploding.

True. But I note that Orlanth is already absent from the Unity Battle, preceding that event. Orlanth is dead before the world breaks apart.

On the other hand, Orlanth does defeat Chaos once, on his own - he is the successful defender of the Sky and Middle Air after the Rift opens.

Other than that, we only have his help ambushing the Lesser Kajaboori in battle with the uz of the west on his Westfaring. (A myth that may have been used by Saronil aiding Palashee in 1538.)

 

Sequence isn't really a thing in Godtime. As Peter Metcalfe has repeatedly pointed out, the stages of the Westfaring are scattered over several mythical maps in the Guide, and not at all in sequence. One might argue that this may have been a consequence of the Shattering of the World, though.

 

Just now, soltakss said:

The Lesser Darkness was caused by Orlanth killing Yelm the Emperor.

In the syncretic and simplified myth, yes. Or it may be the invasion of the sky led by Xentha.

Just now, soltakss said:

But, killing Orlanth and sending him to Hell has certainly caused his magic to stop.

No debate there. My contention is whether this is the Great Darkness, which it isn't as far as I am concerned. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Joerg said:

My contention is whether this is the Great Darkness, which it isn't as far as I am concerned. 

Except for Broyan's statement as in 11L p.102: They stop only briefly, spreading a message of hope from the exiled High King Broyan, “This is the Great Darkness, prepare for the fight.”

I'd contend it is.  This Great Darkness ends at the "Unity Battle" aka Battle of Aurochs Hills.  The Silver Age equates to the period that follows until the Battle of Pennel when Orlanth is fully freed.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/8/2018 at 10:11 AM, David Scott said:

Major Deities: issaries

Yikes! And in that moment I and a lot of my colleagues were, uh, "illuminated." We can display the Etyries shingle or make the sign of Holy Ashar and go about our business like always but you can't trade back the experience. ("Praxian bargain.") God/dess help the hapless beards though.

Edited by scott-martin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Except for Broyan's statement as in 11L p.102: They stop only briefly, spreading a message of hope from the exiled High King Broyan, “This is the Great Darkness, prepare for the fight.”

I knew I’d seen it somewhere, thanks for the reference. 

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

This Great Darkness ends at the "Unity Battle" aka Battle of Aurochs Hills.  The Silver Age equates to the period that follows until the Battle of Pennel when Orlanth is fully freed.

I believe that the battle of Auroch Hills and many other events at this time isn’t the end of this Great Darkness, I think Pennel Ford is. Auroch Hills et al, is a saving event in the Darkness, like the Praxian spirits and gods that help people survive. This is the Sartar equivillent, it saves lives with the new breathers, but doesn’t return the status quo.

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

My contention is whether this is the Great Darkness, which it isn't as far as I am concerned. 

This Great Darkness is a mythic echo of the godtime event. It’s chararistics are exactly the same as it’s a mythological intrusion into the Middle World from the Godtime of that event. It’s cause is different but it’s effects are somewhat the same. If King Broyon believes this and tells everyone this, they understand what it is and what to do. It starts a chain of events that everyone can understand, I fought, we won/unity battle is coming. It gives them hope, they all know what they can do. No one worries about the difference between this and the godtime event, this is now.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Except for Broyan's statement as in 11L p.102: They stop only briefly, spreading a message of hope from the exiled High King Broyan, “This is the Great Darkness, prepare for the fight.”

Hyperbole. The conditions are similar to the world before the Spike imploded. Orlanth had retreated from the Inner World, and would no longer intercede (personally) on behalf of his followers.

Basically, the world resembles the state after Arachne Solara had thrown out her net, re-connecting the shards of the world - the start of the Gray Age.

15 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I'd contend it is.  This Great Darkness ends at the "Unity Battle" aka Battle of Aurochs Hills.  The Silver Age equates to the period that follows until the Battle of Pennel when Orlanth is fully freed.

You are confusing your Godtime events here. The Unity Battle did not start the Silver Age, it only delayed the Greater Darkness. What started the Silver Age was what happened after I Fought We Won, with Heort, Ezkankekko and other leaders creating the Unity coalition, the Kingdom of Night. Explorers like Heort or troll explorers re-established paths between the shards, ending their isolation. Heort found Ivarne. Hantrafal developed worship. Enough that Heort could be slain by the Storm Bolt a long time before the Dawn.

There is no Godtime parallel for the Battle of Aurochs Hills. Lots of precedent squaring off these opponents, but no direct parallel with this premise.

For all this "Rebel" mythos about the Orlanthi, they weren't rebels during most of the Gods War, but instead the apex culture. All their rebel period took place in the Golden Age, as did the conflict that was re-awakened by that battle. Kerofinela and Kethaela remained unconquered longer than any other place. The Vingkotling Age is about raiders and invaders coming to their land, causing harm (and Vingkotlings retaliating or pre-empting against them), but never conquering it until the world fell apart. Sure, Argan Argar took possession of Veskarthan's great mountain north of Choralinthor, and sliced off its top, which in all likelihood was the stuff blown upon the Stone Forest at the Print. But this change of management and the construction of Akez Loradak didn't concern the Vingkotlings. Neither did the arrival of Gash and Gore in the wastelands of Dagori Inkarth or the settlement in Halikiv.

The Greater Darkness was about people turning into monsters - like the Kodigvari line with its shapechangers. 

There is the yawn-inducing possibility to cast the Lunars as the world-eating Chaos, and it is possible that Broyan meant to do that. In that case, he may have deserved his unspectacular end...

The New Lunar Temple is a chaotic sore, and it supports the Windstop caused by the ritual build-up of both Tatius the Bright and Broyan at Whitewall. And I would find it interesting to have performed some of the questing that made the Windstop possible, and then to realize "It was all our own fault!" when the effects hit the fan as the temple is desecrated.

The area effect being centered on the new temple rather than Whitewall may be the result of the careful preparation and mass sacrifice of Lunar lives at the Siege. It is one of the most corrupt acts in the Hero Wars that I have seen so far, even taking into account the escalation in Fonrit or the Kingdom of War. Like allying Delecti or the Tusk Riders in the Dragon Pass boardgame (nicely described in the "recent" issue of Wyrm's Footprints), only an order of magnitude worse. The Lunar deaths at Whitewall might outnumber those of the Building Wall Battle or the Lunar side at the Battle of Pennel Ford (although those were mostly cheap allies), and the Battle of Heroes may be hard put to approach that carnage.

I do wonder what prize the Assiday family was playing for. This Mk3 class of Reaching Moon Temple would have been extremely hard to repeat anywhere, and the empire had run out of suitable frontiers - neither Pent nor Fronela (with Charg still under the Ban) offered any reasonable expansion.

Getting Nochet and Esrolia under the envelope cannot have been the point of this exercise, either - backstabbing Fazzur after achieving something there with a little more support would have been a lot easier.

Getting back at Rebellus Terminus... that would have meant to establish the Windstop permanently in the region. But without Ernalda around, what would have been the point? Easier to get a giant gorp cover the old EWF.

Extending the Windstop into the Middle Sky? That would have been an achievement, but even tapping a True Dragon the new Temple was too flimsy to achieve that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, David Scott said:

I believe that the battle of Auroch Hills and many other events at this time isn’t the end of this Great Darkness, I think Pennel Ford is. Auroch Hills et al, is a saving event in the Darkness, like the Praxian spirits and gods that help people survive. This is the Sartar equivalent, it saves lives with the new breathers, but doesn’t return the status quo.

Does Pennel Ford, or does it take the Dragonrise to fully undo the damage done (by Broyan and Tatius) at the Siege of Whitewall?

16 hours ago, David Scott said:

This Great Darkness is a mythic echo of the godtime event. It’s chararistics are exactly the same as it’s a mythological intrusion into the Middle World from the Godtime of that event.

This "Great Darkness" is Darkness, but not Great. Still in the Death of Rastagar scale of bad times, which reminds me of my mother's side of the family who were trapped in East Prussia in 1944/45 and had to flee over the unreliably frozen Baltic Sea as the Red Tide had cut them off. (Also apt in that the tp a certain extent righteous fury of the Red Army had been caused by their political and ideological leaders...)

16 hours ago, David Scott said:

It’s cause is different but it’s effects are somewhat the same. If King Broyon believes this and tells everyone this, they understand what it is and what to do. It starts a chain of events that everyone can understand, I fought, we won/unity battle is coming. It gives them hope, they all know what they can do. No one worries about the difference between this and the godtime event, this is now.  

King Broyan quested for an outcome like this, but may have underestimated the power available to Tatius.

Looking at the Godtime, there are just two major sieges in the myths we know so far - the Flood failing to cover Kerofinela, Kethaela and Saird, and Arrowtop Mountain. Neither works well for the situation of Whitewall.

There wasn't any time in the Gods War when Orlanth was the Underdog, not even at Stormfall. He only fought successfully in one of the big world invasions that followed the creation of the Rift, and that was when he defended the Sky (and Middle/Upper Air) against the Sky Terror. Orlanth is notably absent as a defender against Chaos on the Surface World, leaving that role to Vingkot and his heirs.

Broyan had acquired the Sword and Helm, so he put himself into the shoes of Kodig and Rastagar. His end against the Kitori curse may have been a repercussion of the Sword and Helm Saga in addition to the failed Shadow Tribute obligation that is given as in your face reason. How complete was Samastina's hold over the Grandmothers at that time? She and her allies had won at Pennel, but the Grandmothers still were faced with the bearer of the Sword and Helm, and their ancient alliance with Kimantor may have been invoked by dissident elements.

 

It is possible that this goes down to the definition of "Great Darkness". To me, this is the period of the myths of futile resistance against the rifts eating up the world, and desperate and inhuman ways to cheat around this. One thing Michael Ende's Neverending Story had a vague idea about but an abysmal execution in the narrative, other than triggering the "not about me, I will look away" impulse that affected e.g. the Hagolings until the Lightbringer Missionaries arrived, but in the reader.

Broyan might have identified the Great Darkness with the loss of the Sword and Helm, and the dominance of the Orlanthi. The result he received resembles that. But then, the Gods War aspect is mitigated after just one battle, creating a Gray (not yet Silver) Age situation.

I wonder whether that was his plan, and who helped him get there. I doubt that Minaryth Purple was involved, even though he appears to have kept a loyalty to Starbrow. This piece of God Learner myth exploitation may have had a different source. I wonder which. Possibly even some unspeakable ally.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The Greater Darkness was about people turning into monsters - like the Kodigvari line with its shapechangers

That may have been a part of it. I don’t think this is universal. 

24 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The New Lunar Temple is a chaotic sore,

The major source for the temple is in The Sartar Companion page 80. The Windstop is in 1621 and the consecration ceremony in 1625. What gives you the impression that Tatius’s preparations are linked with the Windstop. My impression is that the complex needs to be up and running in a normal way before the main switch on. Involving the construction and dedications of the temples in a war against Orlanth doesn't feel to have a place in this. In the well know Brookian analogy of the NLT and the Death Star, if feels too early to test the device on Jehda (Whitewall).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Does Pennel Ford, or does it take the Dragonrise to fully undo the damage done (by Broyan and Tatius) at the Siege of Whitewall?

The damage is never fully undone. But Pennel Ford is where Orlanth returns and the Windstop fully ends. The Dragonrise is a result of a separate event involving Kallyr, but Orlanth is already out. There is an overall interplay of all these events, some are direct results, others side effects.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, David Scott said:

The major source for the temple is in The Sartar Companion page 80. The Windstop is in 1621 and the consecration ceremony in 1625. What gives you the impression that Tatius’s preparations are linked with the Windstop.

First of all the fact that the Windstop is centered upon the New Temple rather than Whitewall. It does make sense - the temple is designed to sit at the center of a circular effect, of increased range compared to earlier models.

The fact that battles away from the Temple have a backlash that affects the dedication works in the Temple.

Whitewall falls more than three years after the work on the temple has begun in earnest. Tatius oversees the rites and futile attacks at Whitewall in person while directing the construction from afar. Covert commandos of Lunar magical engineers may have infiltrated the lands to be affected by the Temple and set up magical markers to connect with the temple site. (Could be an interesting scenario hook...)

Broyan's questing and Tatius' escalation of magics feed off one another. Making the actions of Whitewall a sacrificial altar for the temple which isn't that far away as the Lune flies would tie the efforts of Whitewall to the temple, and may be the reason for the centering of the Windstop there.

23 minutes ago, David Scott said:

My impression is that the complex needs to be up and running in a normal way before the main switch on.

The main effect being to link up with the Silver Shadow, altering the magical reality of the Surface World to that (under the influence) of the Red Moon surface.

The Area Effect definition gets triggered by the Fall of Whitewall. This may be unintended - the new Temple is a prototype, after all.

23 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Involving the construction and dedications of the temples in a war against Orlanth doesn't feel to have a place in this.

Then how does Harrek's Sunspear backlash at Pennel affect the temple?

23 minutes ago, David Scott said:

In the well know Brookian analogy of the NLT and the Death Star, if feels too early to test the device on Jehda (Whitewall).

Analogies aren't, to quote said Nick.

The Death Star is the Crimson Bat of the Empire. Similar to the Glowline, but independent of it.

The Glowline is a permeable border between realities. Not the first of its kind - the influence of the Bright Empire was one, as was the influence of the EWF or the incremental spread of the Closing. The Luatha activity in Seshnela 1049 may have been similar, too. There are no previous flickers, though.

Finding a similar effect in fiction outside of Glorantha is a bit harder. Peter F. Hamilton's "Pandora's Star" may be such a case, where some (unknown) aliens imprison the species called the Prime in its solar system. The Blight in the Wheel of Time, and possibly the prison of the Dark One, may be such a case.

 

The Empire does have a technology suppressing the FTL drives of the Star Wars universe - that or a spherical ECM envelope in space battle simulations may be similar to the concept of the TotRMs. The Glowline has been known to flicker when one of the temples gets sabotaged, and possibly when it gets restarted, too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Joerg said:

What started the Silver Age was what happened after I Fought We Won, with Heort, Ezkankekko and other leaders creating the Unity coalition, the Kingdom of Night. Explorers like Heort or troll explorers re-established paths between the shards, ending their isolation. Heort found Ivarne. Hantrafal developed worship. Enough that Heort could be slain by the Storm Bolt a long time before the Dawn.

i.e. the Three New Lights, the New Breathers, and anyone else working to reestablish the order of things and fully restore the balance to the world in the aftermath of the Great Winter

16 minutes ago, Joerg said:

First of all the fact that the Windstop is centered upon the New Temple rather than Whitewall. It does make sense - the temple is designed to sit at the center of a circular effect, of increased range compared to earlier models.

.We know the Death of Orlanth is a condition for the New Temple to be completed.  That Orlanth is in Whitewall doesn't change the fact that it is a precondition for the temple.  

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Does Pennel Ford, or does it take the Dragonrise to fully undo the damage done (by Broyan and Tatius) at the Siege of Whitewall?

Neither.  The damage is done, the Compromise has been broken, the Hero Wars begin.  The Dragonrise is an example of a new 'rift' (small vs. Zzabur's blasts), but those are growing.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

The conditions are similar to the world before the Spike imploded.

Yes, and that is all within the Great Darkness.  

And it may be hyperbole, but it also enables the Myths of Survival during the Great Darkness to work.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Joerg said:

First of all the fact that the Windstop is centered upon the New Temple rather than Whitewall.

I beg to differ, it's Whitewall. We have two maps showing this: the first is in the Guide page 731, the second larger one in the Eleven Lights page 100. As the creator of the map, Whitewall is the centre. I created the map to show the detailed extent of the Windstop using Colin Driver's hex map, unknown to me Jeff included it in the Guide and it subsequently made it into Eleven Lights. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

i.e. the Three New Lights, the New Breathers, and anyone else working to reestablish the order of things and fully restore the balance to the world in the aftermath of the Great Winter. 

Yes - those are Gray Age to Silver Age myths.

 

 

2 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

We know the Death of Orlanth is a condition for the New Temple to be completed.  That Orlanth is in Whitewall doesn't change the fact that it is a precondition for the temple.  

At the time of completion, the Breath of Orlanth is back.

I wonder about Orlanth's sky presence during the Windstop. Are the normal stars of Orlanth's Ring visible inside the Windstop area? Are they visible outside of it?

What about the sun inside the Windstop. Yelm cultists like Tatius appear to be hale and well. Should that be the case? I have no problem with Kargzant, Elmal or Yelmalio being available, and even Antirius would be tolerable if a bit of a stretch, but Imperial Yelm should be brightening Wonderhome.

 

2 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Neither.  The damage is done, the Compromise has been broken, the Hero Wars begin.  The Dragonrise is an example of a new 'rift' (small vs. Zzabur's blasts), but those are growing.

The Compromise has been broken at Castle Blue. And at the Nights of Horror.

Killing a deity - even a Greater Deity "owning" one of the core runes - changes the universe, but if humans do so, the terms of the Compromise aren't violated. Putting a (major) deity into Time beyond mere Heroforming is a breach of Compromise. Firshala or Baroshi are sufficiently small fry, so are the New Stars of Orlanth's Ring as long as they don't leave the sky. Calling Tanian down from the Sky again might be the breach of Compromise. Manifesting Daysenerus, the Black Eater or Orlanth in a battle does break the Compromise. Storm Bull inside the Eternal Battle is manifest, but per definition in Godtime. Outside of the Eternal Battle his presence would be a breach of compromise. Calling forth the Praxian Founders, Protectresses or even Waha or the Twin Stars is covered by the Compromise.

 

2 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Yes, and that is all within the Great Darkness.  

That's where our definitions differ. The Devil was born in the last phase of the Lesser Darkness, as far as I am concerned, and the invasion of the Spike was the last act of the Lesser Darkness. The opening of the Chaos Rift marks the start of the Greater Darkness.

 

2 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

And it may be hyperbole, but it also enables the Myths of Survival during the Great Darkness to work.

"Survival" is a strong word for the wretched continued existence in abject and unwit(ness)ing horror, except for the select few last active heroes performing I Fought We Won, or Magasta combining the energies of the rivers. 

The Sky River Titan myth is possibly the most positive of the Greater Darkness myths. It also contradicts "all the rivers froze through" for the Greater Darkness.

2 minutes ago, David Scott said:

I beg to differ, it's Whitewall. We have two maps showing this: the first is in the Guide page 731, the second larger one in the Eleven Lights page 100. As the creator of the map, Whitewall is the centre. I created the map to show the detailed extent of the Windstop using Colin Driver's hex map, unknown to me Jeff included it in the Guide and it subsequently made it into Eleven Lights. 

I recall a satement that the Windstop had the extent of the planned TotRM, but checking the map confirms your statement.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Then how does Harrek's Sunspear backlash at Pennel affect the temple?

The Guide says on page 732

Quote

Harrek blinded the Sun God when the Lunar Sun priests called down a single bolt of flame thrown down from the Sun upon the Hero and his twelve boon companions. Harrek killed nearly every Lunar magician who participated in the fight. Worse yet, almost one in ten of all the magicians working to build the New Lunar Temple, nearly 200 miles away, were also killed by fire at that moment.

The Lunar College of Magic is the linking factor. Sorcerers were killed, the temple wasn't damaged.

55 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The Death Star is the Crimson Bat of the Empire.

The Brookian analogy is the NLT, the Joergian is the Crimson bat, I wasn't referring to your analogy.

57 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The main effect being to link up with the Silver Shadow, altering the magical reality of the Surface World to that (under the influence) of the Red Moon surface.

The main effect to extend the Glowline from the temple near Furthest, see the map in the Guide page 279 and 333.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

There are no previous flickers, though.

The Guide says otherwise (279)

Quote

The Glowline is not perfectly regular, and must struggle to contain the pulsating power of the Red Moon. Sometimes the Glowline expands, sometimes it contracts, and, occasionally, it even blinks out for short periods of time.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, David Scott said:

The Brookian analogy is the NLT, the Joergian is the Crimson bat, I wasn't referring to your analogy.

And I was refuting the Brookian analogy, offering one that has a better correlation. 

 

3 minutes ago, David Scott said:
1 hour ago, Joerg said:

The main effect being to link up with the Silver Shadow, altering the magical reality of the Surface World to that (under the influence) of the Red Moon surface.

The main effect to extend the Glowline from the temple near Furthest,

and the temples in between, but what these temples do (except the very first on the Edge of Glamour) is to extend the "natural" effect of the Silver Shadow beyond that blessed region. The original Temple of the Reaching Moon probably healed the effect of Sheng scarring the moon, re-lighting the Silver Shadow. See e.g. the map on p.310 showing the perfectly circular nature of that satrapy. (The division of Raibanth by the rivers might disagree slightly, though.)

 

3 minutes ago, David Scott said:

see the map in the Guide page 279 and 333.

Neither shows the area of effect of the New Lunar Temple - 333 doesn't even cover half of the overlap area, the two page spread 180/181 is better for the shape of the Tarsh temple effect.

Does the broad area in red indicate the "tidal zone" of the Glowline?

 

3 minutes ago, David Scott said:
1 hour ago, Joerg said:

There are no previous flickers, though.

The Guide says otherwise (279)

p.296, sidebar (297 only has the first half of the second sentence).

And unclear wording of mine. I meant to say that there were previous instances of flickering out, but no flickering on - when activated, it usually doesn't come on and off a few times like a faulty neon tube.

 

3 minutes ago, David Scott said:
Quote

The Glowline is not perfectly regular, and must struggle to contain the pulsating power of the Red Moon. Sometimes the Glowline expands, sometimes it contracts, and, occasionally, it even blinks out for short periods of time.

 

Quite similar to the containment field around Tork.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×