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Briquelet

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Lots of good info and ideas here, but it seems like there is quite a bit of whining and complaining, too. Gang, the game is written; buy it or don't buy it. For every single thing each of us wanted, there is someone else (maybe two or three someone's) who didn't want it. The bottom line is that the writing team made decisions; if they hadn't, there would be no game. I am just over half-way through the book and I like it. Yes, there are questions to be answered, but those answers will come, eventually. In the meantime, I'll call those rules as I see them. After all, my Glorantha will vary.

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So… you started a thread to complain that people are complaining? I might have to complain about that. :-)

I think some of what you're seeing as whining or complaining is just reasonable feedback. I don't expect Chaosium to halt the presses or re-write RQ:G to suit my personal tastes, but there's nothing wrong with letting them know which things in the new rules seem off-putting to me (and why) as well as noting the things that I think are improvements to the older editions. And the discussion may help other players to decide which new rules they want to keep and which old rules they want to retain as house rules, which is exactly the "call those rules as I see them" approach you describe above.

Edited by trystero
Fixed broken smiley.
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— 
Self-discipline isnt everything; look at Pol Pot.”
—Helen Fielding, Bridget Jones: The Edge of Reason

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There are 3 tiers of issues, as I see it:

Tier 1: actual typos and such. I think it's fair to say that Chaosium welcomes such crowd editing (although I saw one poster whose repeated semantic and grammatical corrections were pretty consistently wrong, so that's negative productivity right there)

Tier 2: issues with mechanics - less productively useful for Chaosium, but useful for other players to see alternatives to the mechanics presented.  The Runequest community, like most street orphans (and for kind of the same reasons over decades), has grown to be astonishingly flexible, resourceful, and creative...they've likely home-brewed a dozen alternatives to every single rule.  Chaosium obviously had to pick one to be canonical, but ygmv: seeing these alternatives may even spark a new gm to come up with something nobody else has thought of.  If nothing else, it will teach them that nobody need hold these rules as sacrosanct , which imo makes for better gm'ing.

3) tier 3 is just bitching, complaining that the rules didn't include x idea, or y approach.  It's the least constructive but due to anonymity finds fertile soil on the interwebs.  Frankly, Chaosium forum managers have a firm understanding of the Streisand effect, and generally lets these threads die a deserved death as they peter out, only stepping in when the tone gets excessively personal, etc.

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20 hours ago, styopa said:

There are 3 tiers of issues, as I see it:

Tier 1: actual typos and such. I think it's fair to say that Chaosium welcomes such crowd editing (although I saw one poster whose repeated semantic and grammatical corrections were pretty consistently wrong, so that's negative productivity right there)

Tier 2: issues with mechanics - less productively useful for Chaosium, but useful for other players to see alternatives to the mechanics presented.  The Runequest community, like most street orphans (and for kind of the same reasons over decades), has grown to be astonishingly flexible, resourceful, and creative...they've likely home-brewed a dozen alternatives to every single rule.  Chaosium obviously had to pick one to be canonical, but ygmv: seeing these alternatives may even spark a new gm to come up with something nobody else has thought of.  If nothing else, it will teach them that nobody need hold these rules as sacrosanct , which imo makes for better gm'ing.

3) tier 3 is just bitching, complaining that the rules didn't include x idea, or y approach.  It's the least constructive but due to anonymity finds fertile soil on the interwebs.  Frankly, Chaosium forum managers have a firm understanding of the Streisand effect, and generally lets these threads die a deserved death as they peter out, only stepping in when the tone gets excessively personal, etc.

May I add a new grouping?  I'd like to complain about the fact that we're on the, what, seventh version of the rules, and yet I still don't see any relief for us GM's when it comes to new adventure content.  Not sourcebook content, but adventures we can use/adapt to our campaigns.  

One of the things that attracted my groups to RQ3 instead of D&D was the simple, common-sense rules that lent a grittiness to the games.  We liked Glorantha just fine, and came to love it over time.  But the way to experience Glorantha (and the rules) is through adventuring.  And one of the biggest sins of RQ3 was the lack of module/adventure content.

So an honest question to you GM's out there, what are you going to do with these new rules?  Run Apple Lane with them?  For people absolutely new to RQ, I guess that's exactly what they will do. 

But for us die-hards, I'm just not seeing the point of any of this until there are brand new Borderlands and Big Rubble style and quality sourcebook/adventure packs produced again.  And frankly, I wish they'd just started with that first plus a rules addendum for passions (something I've already got bolted on to my RQ3 anyways).

So wake me when there's a new Borderlands, until then I'll be paying through the nose for the one or two 20-year-old TotRM's I don't have yet off Ebay for adventure ideas because that's my pain point.  I got lots of rules (arguably way too many) already.

Edited by Beornvig
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My comments are well thought out, insightful and beautifully balanced

Yours are unnecessary whinging

 

The hardest skill I've developed (and I'm only just over base percentage, however one calculates it) is reading someone else's observation or complaint on a topic which I don't care (or have never thought) about and not just labeling (in my head) that its author is a malingerer and a counter jumper. Just on the principle that misery loves company I assume that I'm not alone.

Rule Zero: Don't be on fire

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59 minutes ago, Al. said:

The hardest skill I've developed (and I'm only just over base percentage, however one calculates it) is reading someone else's observation or complaint on a topic which I don't care (or have never thought) about and not just labeling (in my head) that its author is a malingerer and a counter jumper. Just on the principle that misery loves company I assume that I'm not alone.

That skill goes up when, at a later date, you end up with the same observation or complaint that you had previously dismissed. 

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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1 hour ago, Beornvig said:

So an honest question to you GM's out there, what are you going to do with these new rules?  Run Apple Lane with them?  For people absolutely new to RQ, I guess that's exactly what they will do. 

Honestly, I seldom run pre-published content.  Most of my games -- in any system -- are my own plotlines & NPCs.

I actually plan to depart from that habit & run quite a bit of the old stuff, as my current group has minimal experience of Glorantha.  I'll start with Apple Lane Date Palm Oasis where they impress the Duke's Man who hires them down to Ronegarth and thence into Borderlands campaign, and we''ll see if Pavis / Big Rubble goes next, or something else...

But frankly, if I had a bunch of Gloranthan grognards I wouldn't hesitate to create new material for them to adventure with.

 

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1 hour ago, Beornvig said:

But for us die-hards, I'm just not seeing the point of any of this until there are brand new Borderlands and Big Rubble style and quality sourcebook/adventure packs produced again.  ...

Having talked to Jeff at Eternalcon, Chaosium are very much aware of this and it’s a top priority for the team. However I think a supplement for RQ2 with extra stats for passions would sell a tiny fraction of the copies a supplement for an already published, best seller on Drivethru could command. It might be the best order for some of us, but it would be a commercial fumble - hit self in wallet for Chaosium.

The upcoming GM guide should have a ton of playable material to run and several other major projects were teased in the seminars, so I’m hopefull that the situation by the end of the year, or at least this time next year should look a lot different.

Check out the Runequest Glorantha Wiki for RQ links and resources. Any updates or contributions welcome!

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4 hours ago, Beornvig said:

But for us die-hards, I'm just not seeing the point of any of this until there are brand new Borderlands and Big Rubble style and quality sourcebook/adventure packs produced again.  And frankly, I wish they'd just started with that first plus a rules addendum for passions (something I've already got bolted on to my RQ3 anyways).

So wake me when there's a new Borderlands, until then I'll be paying through the nose for the one or two 20-year-old TotRM's I don't have yet off Ebay for adventure ideas because that's my pain point.  I got lots of rules (arguably way too many) already.

Yeah, campaign packs are the big draw for me too. If they did something along those lines (not necessarily a reprint, I prefer new stuff), I'd have pre-ordered it. Something like the Great Pendragon Campaign set to the Hero Wars would be nice too. 

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Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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14 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

... (not necessarily a reprint, I prefer new stuff)... 

I'm pretty sure the "RQClassic KS" stretch goals + the "conversion guide" fills the bulk of the "reprint" (even a converted/updated "reprint"") desire/market, although a similar RQ3 product would be VERY welcome !!!

Given the fabulous RQG product, I suspect a RQ3 KS would be less successful than RQClassic was, but it'd sure be nice to get all those yummy RQ3 supplements back into print!

Maybe multiple per-product KS'es?  Do one, pause, do another, long-pause-for-Con-season, do another.... lather/rinse/repeat.  Only the popular products get funded, so in doesn't satisfy the completists... but they also don't get themselves buried under a year+ backlog like they've done with RQClassic!

I guess we'll just have to sit back and see what develops...

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Hey, it doesn't have to be RQ3 if it's a Campaign Pack. The RQ2 boxed sets were superior to the RQ3 ones. But it the whole campaign setting plus multiple adventures and plot threads that I want-not one offs. 

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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5 hours ago, g33k said:

Honestly, I seldom run pre-published content.  Most of my games -- in any system -- are my own plotlines & NPCs.

You enjoy a luxury of spare time then.  /envy

We play one Saturday every 2 weeks and I am sometimes literally scrambling Friday evening to convert something published to RQ.

This week a pretty interesting one: Dark Clouds Gather.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Clouds_Gather 

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10 minutes ago, styopa said:

You enjoy a luxury of spare time then.  /envy

We play one Saturday every 2 weeks and I am sometimes literally scrambling Friday evening to convert something published to RQ.

This week a pretty interesting one: Dark Clouds Gather.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Clouds_Gather 

I have never played that one in any system.

I find X1: Isle of Dread makes a great port over from the B/X D&D.  Now that I think of it, B4: Lost city might as well. 

Its 2300hrs, do you know where your super dreadnoughts are?

http://reigndragonpressblog.blogspot.com/

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1 hour ago, styopa said:

You enjoy a luxury of spare time then.  /envy

We play one Saturday every 2 weeks ...

Notsomuch, no.  It's 2 differences, I think:

1st/biggest -- I get to play much less often than you (and no, the envy doesn't / for me) -- one day every two MONTHS is what I get when RL doesn't interfere.  I'm going on 4 months without any game=session as of this moment.  I don't think I've had as many as 7 sessions in a year for... a decade, or more.  So I have a LOT more time to come up with content between sessions.

2md (but also relevant) - I'm willing to GM on very minimal hardcopy notes.  Often it's 2-3 minutes' sketching maps/images, and 10ish recording key stats and names -- names often take me more than everything else put together, and sometimes are the ONLY prep I put onto paper.

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7 hours ago, styopa said:

You enjoy a luxury of spare time then.  /envy

We play one Saturday every 2 weeks and I am sometimes literally scrambling Friday evening to convert something published to RQ.

This week a pretty interesting one: Dark Clouds Gather.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Clouds_Gather 

The UK module were great - I've always wanted to run Sentinel and Gauntlet as a RQ game

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8 hours ago, styopa said:

You enjoy a luxury of spare time then.  /envy

To me this sounds a bit like you over-prepare. After getting my campaign started (which always takes some "world-building" for local flavor, or alternatively intense study of resources like "The Coming Storm"), I usually go by with a good idea what should be the major encounters of this sitting, ideas what to toss to players demanding detours, knowledge of antagonist activities and some resource for either ready-to-use or quick-to-improvise opponents should it come to some form of competitive dice rolling (combat, magic, other skill use).

No battle plan survives the first encounter (or lack thereof) with the enemy, and no scenario I have GMed ever unfolded the way I expected. Unless you have a topographical reason to railroad (aka linear dungeon section), activities are near impossible to predict.

8 hours ago, styopa said:

We play one Saturday every 2 weeks and I am sometimes literally scrambling Friday evening to convert something published to RQ.

Sounds like you don't have anything like a campaign arc, with minions of one or the other major adversary afield that push rivaling or hostile agendas?

I find that having such an arc and recurring adversary groups creates scenarios almost without much preparation effort. If bad things happen to third parties, the players' party needs some form of involvement, but that is easily created.

 

 

 

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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14 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Yeah, campaign packs are the big draw for me too. If they did something along those lines (not necessarily a reprint, I prefer new stuff), I'd have pre-ordered it. Something like the Great Pendragon Campaign set to the Hero Wars would be nice too. 

ME TOO!  I GMd RQ from 1982-1993. We were hardcore, but all family type/ working stiffs.  While we did not enjoy the devolution of RQ products, the sole biggest factor to us all going away was the lack of playable campaign packs.  Big Rubble/Borderlands/ Griffin Mountain were / are excellent.  We were able to spin them into many extra hours of play getting 1000% extra from each pack. Once we had exhausted all the published scenarios, it got to be so much work, burnout set in, and here I sit not having played for 25 years.  

Most long term members on this forum have continued playing over the years.  This implies to me they have time and skills for scenario design.  Seems to me that to regrow RQ lots of newbies and returning players are needed.  If you do not come out with a reasonable amount of scenarios quickly current momentum will be lost.  I have the PDF rules and the starter pack ( one nice scenario ! ) and I am hot to trot.  I am using the material to get comfortable with character generation.  However, until I have my paper rules book and more scenarios, I am loath to go looking for more players.  Hopefully I can maintain my enthusiasm long enough for some decent campaign packs to arrive.  I feel that RQs reinvention needs this to be addressed very rapidly.  It’s more important than GM screens, bestiary or area/race packs.

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3 hours ago, Joerg said:

To me this sounds a bit like you over-prepare. After getting my campaign started (which always takes some "world-building" for local flavor, or alternatively intense study of resources like "The Coming Storm"), I usually go by with a good idea what should be the major encounters of this sitting, ideas what to toss to players demanding detours, knowledge of antagonist activities and some resource for either ready-to-use or quick-to-improvise opponents should it come to some form of competitive dice rolling (combat, magic, other skill use).

No battle plan survives the first encounter (or lack thereof) with the enemy, and no scenario I have GMed ever unfolded the way I expected. Unless you have a topographical reason to railroad (aka linear dungeon section), activities are near impossible to predict.

Sounds like you don't have anything like a campaign arc, with minions of one or the other major adversary afield that push rivaling or hostile agendas?

I find that having such an arc and recurring adversary groups creates scenarios almost without much preparation effort. If bad things happen to third parties, the players' party needs some form of involvement, but that is easily created.

My prep is mostly:

- creating the monsters (generally one per type unless there's a leader or unique i need to be present; so if they're attacked by 6 wolves, they're identical)

- creating the lists of loot/magic items, etc so when they have the chance to have someone identify something 3 (real time) months down the road, I can be consistent!

Our campaign's been running around 14 years now?  Started with my sons around 11 and 10 I believe.

A list of what their group has done in the old forums: http://www.glorantha.com/forums/topic/a-practical-guide-to-gming-runequest-3/#post-16009

....since then it took off again, now with their college gamer friends as the group, and we're having a great time.  They had a long arc of several interwoven overlapping adventures, including (more or less) the Sea Cave, Shadows over Bogenhafen, Balastor's Barracks, Village of Hommlet, DD1-2-3, Sunless Citadel, and now Dark Clouds.

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20 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

That skill goes up when, at a later date, you end up with the same observation or complaint that you had previously dismissed. 

Isn't that when I achieve Illumination?

Rule Zero: Don't be on fire

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1 minute ago, PhilHibbs said:

You're right, 'cuz I can't access the page. 

I still remember actually backtracking a game and bringing a group back to life because of some "nitpicky complaint" that one of my players had that he was completely correct about and that wiped out all the characters. I'm not so quick to dismiss such things now. 

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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On 6/11/2018 at 5:46 AM, Briquelet said:

Lots of good info and ideas here, but it seems like there is quite a bit of whining and complaining, too. Gang, the game is written; buy it or don't buy it. For every single thing each of us wanted, there is someone else (maybe two or three someone's) who didn't want it. The bottom line is that the writing team made decisions; if they hadn't, there would be no game. I am just over half-way through the book and I like it. Yes, there are questions to be answered, but those answers will come, eventually. In the meantime, I'll call those rules as I see them. After all, my Glorantha will vary.

Bought it, liked  most of it.

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Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

www.soltakss.com/index.html

Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here

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22 hours ago, Beornvig said:

May I add a new grouping?  I'd like to complain about the fact that we're on the, what, seventh version of the rules, and yet I still don't see any relief for us GM's when it comes to new adventure content.  Not sourcebook content, but adventures we can use/adapt to our campaigns.  

From what I understand, they are coming, lot of adventures.

Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

www.soltakss.com/index.html

Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here

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