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roberrober

Tie in opposed roll

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When opposing scan vs hide and the result is a tie, both successes, what happened? Will be the hiding one discovered or not? In dodge vs attack a tie really means Dodge wins so hiding adventurer will be safe? Am I right?

Sorry my poor english.

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Scan v Hide - with a Success v a Success or Special v a Special result the Highest dice roll wins. 

Combat uses different rules when comparing Success v Success, so a Successful Dodge wins over a Successful Attack, your adventurer is safe.

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20 hours ago, Psullie said:

Scan v Hide - with a Success v a Success or Special v a Special result the Highest dice roll wins.

Excuse me, but where exactly in the rules is this spelled out? I was wondering the same thing as roberrober...

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17 minutes ago, Colgrevance said:

Excuse me, but where exactly in the rules is this spelled out? I was wondering the same thing as roberrober...

The Quickstart says this, but RQG does not, and I think Jason has clarified that the "higher roll wins" rule is no longer in the game.

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36 minutes ago, Colgrevance said:

Excuse me, but where exactly in the rules is this spelled out? I was wondering the same thing as roberrober...

As Phil pointed out I was carrying that over from the Quickstart... mmm

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I'm not sure if this answer the question at hand -- but I think it does.

At the top of p. 144 of RQG, we find this passage describing the results of Opposed Rolls:

Quote

Tie: A tie (where both participants achieve the same type of success but roll the same number) means the situation is temporarily unresolved. If both participants rolled a critical success, the result is a tie.

(emphasis added)

It sure seems as if a tie is defined as having the same type of success and rolling the same number.

This implies (to me at least) that if both parties have the same type of success, but they don't roll the same number, then it is not a tie.

While the text does not seem to state this clearly anywhere, I would infer that since rolling different numbers does matter when the same type of success is rolled (since rolling different numbers precludes a tie) the higher number rolled is the rolled that wins the Opposed Roll.

I am having to infer a bit from the text. But I think it is clear enough.

 

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That is exactly what was raised, and Jason said no, the "higher roll" rule does not apply. Which I think is a shame, it seemed to work well. The only down side was if there is a long time elapsed between the die rolls, you might not know what the first number was.

Edited by PhilHibbs
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Then what does that text mean? Sincerely confused.

If a tie takes place when the numbers are the same (per the text), what is the result if the numbers are not the same?

 

Also, can you point me to where this conversation took place?

3 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

That is exactly what was raised, and Jason said no, the "higher roll" rule does not apply. Which I think is a shame, it seemed to work well. The only down side was if there is a long time elapsed between the die rolls, you might not know what the first number was.

Edited by creativehum

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4 minutes ago, creativehum said:

Then what does that text mean? Sincerely confused.

Also, can you point me to where this conversation took place?

I think it means nothing. It is a carry over from when the "higher roll wins" rule was a thing.

 

Edited by PhilHibbs

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I'm not sure what I think about this. One of my biggest problems with HeroQuest (a game system I otherwise love) is the large number of ties that are produced by this kind of system. I really want a system to help me resolve things (that's why we're rolling), to not learn, "The Future Is Unclear... Try Again."

Are there any posts from the designers about how to handle ties? How to make this result intriguing, fun, interesting, and move things along?

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8 hours ago, creativehum said:

I'm not sure what I think about this. One of my biggest problems with HeroQuest (a game system I otherwise love) is the large number of ties that are produced by this kind of system. I really want a system to help me resolve things (that's why we're rolling), to not learn, "The Future Is Unclear... Try Again."

Well, HQ uses a "high roll wins" (it was "low roll wins" before HQG) rule to break ties.

Anyway, you're right the number of ties will be pretty high, and clearly in favor of the "defender" if there is one. My guess is the rule was discarded because it's not intuitive to break ties with a high roll in a game where lower is better. But that was a poor choice, IMHO.

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Low roll winning on ties would be intuitive for RQ, and doesn't actually change the math much or hurt the higher skilled character as much as people believe.

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7 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Low roll winning on ties would be intuitive for RQ, and doesn't actually change the math much or hurt the higher skilled character as much as people believe.

Yes, but when the player with the higher skill rolls between his opponent's skill and his own skill, the outcome of the opposition entirely depends on the other roll. That's more a psychological issue than a real problem, though...

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24 minutes ago, Mugen said:

Yes, but when the player with the higher skill rolls between his opponent's skill and his own skill, the outcome of the opposition entirely depends on the other roll. That's more a psychological issue than a real problem, though...

Yes, but that is really the only chance the lower skill character has to win the contest.  Besides, no one complains about that when the roll and 02 and lose out to an 01. They might complain about their bad luck, but they respect the 01.

 

And it would be the simplest "fix" for opposed rolls, with the current crit and special rules. 

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58 minutes ago, Mugen said:

Well, HQ uses a "high roll wins" (it was "low roll wins" before HQG) rule to break ties.

Anyway, you're right the number of ties will be pretty high, and clearly in favor of the "defender" if there is one. My guess is the rule was discarded because it's not intuitive to break ties with a high roll in a game where lower is better. But that was a poor choice, IMHO.

I should have been clearer. You get a lot of "Marginal Victories." In a system in which you are suppose to be getting a single output for a conflict the odds are you end up with lots of Marginal Victories rather than decisive victories. I can kind of see the value of that. But a lot of time it simply left conflicts hanging without a sense of resolution. Sometimes yes, I get it. But the odds were weighted to this.

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I personnaly never liked the « hignest (or lowest) roll rule ». The lowest roll doesnt reflect the skill, and the highest roll is not intuitive 

So to avoid tides I always had the defender roll first and use the margin of success as a malus for the attacker.

If both rolls are failed I advantage the defender : since the defender is trying to hide he won’t be standing in the open so the attacker doesnt get an automatic success.

I hope this helps.

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Oh. I see. Yeah. That's one of the limitations of the roll under, 5 success level percentile dice method. It really isn't suited for opposed rolls. Combat works out okay, IMO, it's the non combat applications that seem to suffer the most. One possible approaches would be to use multiples of the Special chance as new success levels,  just go with the tens die, or a high roll, low roll wins.  

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11 minutes ago, GianniVacca said:

We've been using the blackjack (i.e., highest but still under the skill value) rule for our RQG playtest campaign, and it works very well.

Huh? Shouldn't a playtest game use the rules-as-written to, you know, playtest them?

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3 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Oh. I see. Yeah. That's one of the limitations of the roll under, 5 success level percentile dice method. It really isn't suited for opposed rolls. Combat works out okay, IMO, it's the non combat applications that seem to suffer the most. One possible approaches would be to use multiples of the Special chance as new success levels,  just go with the tens die, or a high roll, low roll wins.  

Combat works because you rarely end a fight with one attack and defense roll. So, even if the defender has very high parry/dodge skill, there is a reasonable chance the attacker will eventually score a special when the defender rolls a normal success. Also, parry can be bypassed with damage.

With most non-combat opposition checks, there is rarely more than one roll.

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11 minutes ago, Colgrevance said:

Huh? Shouldn't a playtest game use the rules-as-written to, you know, playtest them?

That probably was the RAW at the time!

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6 minutes ago, GianniVacca said:

The rules have gone through various iterations (as exemplified by the Quickstart booklet).

Glad to hear that. It makes me wonder, though, why the blackjack rule hasn't made it into the final rulebook. I would really like RQG (or rather, all rpg rulebooks) to have extensive designer's notes so I can see the reasions behind some of the more controversial design decisions. I know there are some remarks on the internet, but I don't want to go hunting for them.

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On 6/17/2018 at 10:44 PM, roberrober said:

When opposing scan vs hide and the result is a tie, both successes, what happened? Will be the hiding one discovered or not?

Page 142 & 144 says there's a winner and a loser unless you both roll the same number with the same level success, then the situation remains unresolved (nothing happens)

so

Scan (30) vs hide (30) rolls 22 (success) vs 67 (fail) scan is the winner

Quote

p142 - If both participants succeed, the winner is whoever achieved the better result.

Scan (30) vs hide (30) rolls 22 (success) vs 21 (success) hide is the winner.

Quote

p144 - A tie (where both participants achieve the same type of success but roll the same number) means the situation is temporarily unresolved.

Scan (30) vs hide (30) rolls 22 (success) vs 22 (success), a tie, the situation is temporarily unresolved.

Scan (90) vs hide (30) rolls 10 (a special success) vs 10 (success), scan wins.

Scan (90) vs hide (30) rolls 1 (a critical success) vs 1 (a critical success), a tie, the situation is temporarily unresolved.

On 6/17/2018 at 10:44 PM, roberrober said:

In dodge vs attack a tie really means Dodge wins so hiding adventurer will be safe? Am I right?

as noted, opposed rolls are not used in combat, but the dodge table on page 201 says if the dodge is successful and the attack successful (no specials) the dodge is successful.

we been playing this for 6 weeks now and it's pretty clear to everyone in my game how it works.

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