Tie in opposed roll

[PhilHibbs]

23 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Scan (30) vs hide (30) rolls 22 (success) vs 21 (success) hide is the winner.

Scan (30) vs hide (30) rolls 22 (success) vs 22 (success), a tie, the situation is temporarily unresolved.

There should be no difference between these outcomes, according to my interpretation of Jason's post.

[David Scott]

4 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

There should be no difference between these outcomes, according to my interpretation of Jason's post.

At the table, i'm not going to change the RAW for a post by one of the authors on a website (we have a number of copies at the table). If an updated PDF appears then fine, but until then it seems clear how it works.

If it changes to what Jason says, then there will just be more ties. Personally this works great.

[PhilHibbs]

57 minutes ago, David Scott said:

At the table, i'm not going to change the RAW for a post by one of the authors on a website ....If it changes to what Jason says, then there will just be more ties. Personally this works great.

I agree, I think I would probably go with the high roll mechanic.

[creativehum]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

If it changes to what Jason says, then there will just be more ties. Personally this works great.

I will probably keep the "high roll wins" as well. 

But David, could you explain more about how ties are great. I'm sure they can be. But I'm having a blind spot on it. Can you talk about how such situations play out -- and what happens next in that situation?

Thanks!

[David Scott]

4 minutes ago, creativehum said:

But David, could you explain more about how ties are great.

The ties aren’t great, the higher roll wins is great. 

4 minutes ago, creativehum said:

I'm sure they can be. But I'm having a blind spot on it. Can you talk about how such situations play out -- and what happens next in that situation?

What happens next, well everyone goes oh, nothing happens, we’d better do something else.

[creativehum]

28 minutes ago, David Scott said:

The ties aren’t great, the higher roll wins is great. 

Oh. Okay.

And I agree with you. 

Edited June 19, 2018 by creativehum

[jajagappa]

16 hours ago, GianniVacca said:

We've been using the blackjack (i.e., highest but still under the skill value) rule for our RQG playtest campaign, and it works very well.

I follow the same, and seems to be fine.

[jongjom]

Can Chaosium please give some clarity to the thinking of what happens with two successful rolls i.e. a tie. 

What happens if someone successful rolls a Hide and someone a Search? I know this has been asked before, but I cannot see the answer on the boards.

The blackjack rule seems to be the sensible option, but if this is not used then can Chaosium please give clarity on the reasoning behind this? 

Many thanks 

[David Scott]

43 minutes ago, jongjom said:

What happens if someone successful rolls a Hide and someone a Search? I know this has been asked before, but I cannot see the answer on the boards.

Based on this reply from @Jason Durall, the official answer is that it's a tie, so the situation is not resolved (nothing happens).

[jongjom]

6 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Based on this reply from @Jason Durall, the official answer is that it's a tie, so the situation is not resolved (nothing happens).

Which is a result in favour of the Hide roll? They are not found. The Search was not successful. Is that not a resolution? 

[Psullie]

46 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Based on this reply from @Jason Durall, the official answer is that it's a tie, so the situation is not resolved (nothing happens).

39 minutes ago, jongjom said:

Which is a result in favour of the Hide roll? They are not found. The Search was not successful. Is that not a resolution? 

For me a tied success (wether it's equal number or just levels) means both succeed - in the above example the PC hid but the Guard saw 'something' which would warrant a second Opposed Roll (unless some other event distracted the Guards attention). For me "not resolved (nothing happens)" doesn't mean that the contest ends and everyone goes about their business - just that the status quo remains the same - the PC is trying to hide and the guard is looking.

 

[jongjom]

6 minutes ago, Psullie said:

For me a tied success (wether it's equal number or just levels) means both succeed - in the above example the PC hid but the Guard saw 'something' which would warrant a second Opposed Roll (unless some other event distracted the Guards attention). For me "not resolved (nothing happens)" doesn't mean that the contest ends and everyone goes about their business - just that the status quo remains the same - the PC is trying to hide and the guard is looking.

Which is Okay, but is this the [official] case? 

And if the PC is still trying to Hide and the guard still does Search, does that mean that there should be a second roll? In which case, why not have the blackjack rule to allow for speedier resolution?

However, there maybe some merit in building tension with repeat rolls in some instances. 

Edited June 20, 2018 by jongjom
clarification

[Psullie]

2 minutes ago, jongjom said:

Which is Okay, but is this the [official] case? 

And if the PC is still trying to Hide and the guard still does Search, does that mean that there should be a second roll? In which case, why not have the blackjack rule to allow for speedier resolution?

However, there maybe some merit in building tension with repeat rolls in some instances. 

No not official, just my reading. I'm in favour of the blackjack rule (thanks @GianniVacca for the phrase) and would only tie with a 'number tie' - and yes the point is to build tension. 

 

[creativehum]

1 hour ago, jongjom said:

Can Chaosium please give some clarity to the thinking of what happens with two successful rolls i.e. a tie. 

What happens if someone successful rolls a Hide and someone a Search? I know this has been asked before, but I cannot see the answer on the boards.

The blackjack rule seems to be the sensible option, but if this is not used then can Chaosium please give clarity on the reasoning behind this? 

Many thanks 

As for now, the official version (that is, the version in the text of RuneQuest: Roleplaying in Glorantha) is that the roll with the higher number with the same success level, succeeds. The tie only exists when the success level is the same and the dice rolled is the same. 

The latter case will be rare, but could happen. If it should happen then the status quo remains. My problem with this is, as you your self say, we are left as players what to do now? Do we make the same roll again? Then why not, as you say, just resolve the roll with the first roll somehow? 

Apparently later material will clarify this. But for now, until I see what the new material is and find it useful, I'm sticking with "higher roll wins." It seems like it will get the job done and keep the game moving.

[Psullie]

4 minutes ago, creativehum said:

My problem with this is, as you your self say, we are left as players what to do now? Do we make the same roll again? Then why not, as you say, just resolve the roll with the first roll somehow? 

Tension, sometimes the situation takes longer than expected to resolve

[David Scott]

32 minutes ago, jongjom said:

Which is Okay, but is this the [official] case? 

Given Jason's answer that "Ultimately, it's results you're comparing, not specific dice numbers."

That means that on page 144 the text will change from:

Quote

Tie: A tie (where both participants achieve the same type of success but roll the same number) means the situation is temporarily unresolved. If both participants rolled a critical success, the result is a tie.

to

Quote

Tie: A tie (where both participants achieve the same type level of success but roll the same number) means the situation is temporarily unresolved. If both participants rolled a critical success, the result is a tie.

32 minutes ago, jongjom said:

And if the PC is still trying to Hide and the guard still does Search, does that mean that there should be a second roll?

As the situation is temporarily unresolved (nothing happens).

On page 142 

Quote

 

Reattempting Ability Rolls

An adventurer failing an ability roll may still be in a situation where they could potentially try again. The gamemaster may permit a follow-up attempt if it is justified, but at a –25% penalty.

If this second attempt fails, the adventurer cannot make any further reattempts without the passage of time or change in circumstances.

 

Clearly they haven't failed the roll as they both succeeded, so can reattempt no penalty.

32 minutes ago, jongjom said:

In which case, why not have the blackjack rule to allow for speedier resolution?

This could well be a case of balancing the rules system, numbers versus levels of success.

32 minutes ago, jongjom said:

However, there maybe some merit in building tension with repeat rolls in some instances. 

Yes. Although my players get excited enough just playing.

[PhilHibbs]

30 minutes ago, creativehum said:

As for now, the official version (that is, the version in the text of RuneQuest: Roleplaying in Glorantha) is that the roll with the higher number with the same success level, succeeds. The tie only exists when the success level is the same and the dice rolled is the same. 

Only if you carry forward text from the Quickstart that is no longer present in the main rules.

[creativehum]

12 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Only if you carry forward text from the Quickstart that is no longer present in the main rules.

This is, in fact, not true. 

Several of us, in this very thread, have quoted text from RQG that makes it clear that a tie only exists if the same number is rolled in the same level of success. (See David Scott's last post above). 

[PhilHibbs]

16 minutes ago, creativehum said:

This is, in fact, not true. 

Several of us, in this very thread, have quoted text from RQG that makes it clear that a tie only exists if the same number is rolled in the same level of success. (See David Scott's last post above). 

I was under the impression that it does not say how to adjudicate if the same number is not rolled.

[creativehum]

6 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I was under the impression that it does not say how to adjudicate if the same number is not rolled.

It does not. But the text makes it clear that a tie exists only when the same number is rolled. 

So, yes, it is ambiguous in terms of resolving which party wins if the success level is the same but the numbers are different. The players need to decide, using the current text, which number (higher or lower) breaks the tie. But no matter what, according to the current rules, there is no tie unless the same number is rolled.

Perhaps this ambiguity is what Jason was talking about when he said it would be clarified?

Edited June 20, 2018 by creativehum

[PhilHibbs]

1 minute ago, creativehum said:

It does not. But the text makes it clear that a tie exists only when the same number is rolled. 

So the players need to decide, using the current text, which number (higher or lower) breaks the tie.

Perhaps this is what Jason was talking about when he said it would be clarified?

Yes, I think he meant that that hang over from a removed rule ("same number is rolled") would probably be removed.

[David Scott]

Considering that in 6 weeks of playing RQG at our club. Opposed rolls haven't produced any result that falls into the disputed tie section. I think all of our opposed rolls have been straight success/failures. So overall this is a tiny storm in a large teacup. Our group has been much more concerned about etiquette at the Paps, fumbling tradetalk rolls and trying not to set up a betting tab with the Respected Elders (and failing) at a ritual fight. Combat has been brutal with the Paps Khan loosing his arm to a well placed spear thrust from a sorcerer who succeed his death rune of 90% and so stopped pulling his blows, the issaries merchant has just realised that this hyena skin thing he was given is some kind of setup and everyone is very wary of Babeester Gor guards in shiny copper armour, now they've realised the necklaces really do have dried penises on them.

[PhilHibbs]

Yeah, I don't understand why this is such an emotive issue.

[creativehum]

3 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Considering that in 6 weeks of playing RQG at our club. Opposed rolls haven't produced any result that falls into the disputed tie section. I think all of our opposed rolls have been straight success/failures.

Without knowing how many rolls you've made I can't be sure... but that's kind of amazing, right?

[creativehum]

2 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Yeah, I don't understand why this is such an emotive issue.

Ha ha ha ha ha...

People: This rule seems ambiguous. Designer, could you clarify?

Other People: Why is everyone being so emotive?