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Tie in opposed roll


roberrober

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1 hour ago, Skovari said:

But I think you are missing the part in "Tie" where it says "same quality of result". It doesn't say anything about same rolls on the same level of success like opposed skills does.  So it does not mean the higher roll if they both have normal success wins.  Which is different than opposed skill rolls.

You are correct. I screwed up.

"But Pendragon isn’t intended to be historical, just fun.
So have fun."

-- Greg Stafford

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2 minutes ago, creativehum said:

You are correct. I screwed up.

It's hard reading these rules.  I completely missed the part right after that where it says both lose MP!  It's a giant tome with alot of (great) detail.  Could not have been easy for the writers on this large project.  And just as hard for us to digest it all.  But it's great they are here listening and making changes and answering questions also.

Which leads me back to using an enchanted weapon against a spirit and the opposed roll. 

Do people feel it should be run like opposed skills OR like the opposed spirit combat roll?  Does the spirit do damage on failure or is it just a miss?  Can another PC not in combat with the spirit swing at it also?  I also assume the spirit still gets to attack back spiritually on SR 12.  If the PC attacked with a enchanted weapon do they still do damage back when the spirit attacks it spiritually (thus possibly doing damage twice in the round)?

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5 minutes ago, Skovari said:

Which leads me back to using an enchanted weapon against a spirit and the opposed roll. 

Do people feel it should be run like opposed skills OR like the opposed spirit combat roll?  Does the spirit do damage on failure or is it just a miss?  Can another PC not in combat with the spirit swing at it also?  I also assume the spirit still gets to attack back spiritually on SR 12.  If the PC attacked with a enchanted weapon do they still do damage back when the spirit attacks it spiritually (thus possibly doing damage twice in the round)?

I'd like it if physical attacks to spirits were capped in some way. For example, you can attack a wraith with your Bladesharped sword, but your Attack skill is capped by your POWx5 or something like that. When the wraith attacks, you can only defend with your Spirit Combat skill.

Read my Runeblog about RuneQuest and Glorantha at: http://elruneblog.blogspot.com.es/

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3 hours ago, Runeblogger said:

I'd like it if physical attacks to spirits were capped in some way. For example, you can attack a wraith with your Bladesharped sword, but your Attack skill is capped by your POWx5 or something like that. When the wraith attacks, you can only defend with your Spirit Combat skill.

The way magic weapons work again's shapeshifters would be cool. In RQ2, if you hit a werewolf with a sword with bladesharp on it, you only did damage for the bladesharp, not for the sword. That would be a nice cap. 

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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6 hours ago, Runeblogger said:

I'd like it if physical attacks to spirits were capped in some way. For example, you can attack a wraith with your Bladesharped sword, but your Attack skill is capped by your POWx5 or something like that. When the wraith attacks, you can only defend with your Spirit Combat skill.

They are only letting rune magic damage spirits as well as enchanted items like iron weapons.  Bladesharp won’t damage it as written.  I agree you defend with your spirit combat skill when the spirit attacks of course.  But what about the following:

PC is attacked by spirit.  PC swings at spirit with his long sword with true sword on it on his weapon SR.  He rolls his sword attack, spirit defends with it’s spirit combat.  How is both making a normal success resolved?  Is the spirit able to damage the PC or is it just defending?  Now assuming spirit is still there, it attacks at SR 12.  Both roll their spirit combat for the attack.  If the PC able to do damage here also assuming a tie or he has a better success?  Can another PC with an enchanted weapon also swing at this spirit?

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I'm also not good with the idea that nothing happens if both protagonists fail their roll.

In my opinion, if both opponents have the same skill, there should be ~50% chance that each side wins. Just like with the resistance table.

In case where both fail their rolls, I'd prefer the highest roll to win, even with reduced efficiency (for instance, doing minimum damage to MP).

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21 hours ago, Tupper said:

I noticed that rpgnow had a new version.  I'd bought it from Chaosium, so I hightailed over to their website, and downloaded the new version.

I've noticed this new version renders much slower than the previous also.  Anyone else notice this?

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Looking at the newest version (there's a newer one since I downloaded last), it seems to be getting bigger.  According to its properties, it also hasn't been optimised.

I find quite a few pdfs (from various companies) can be a bit slow on the iPad.  I've got into the habit of feeding them through adobe acrobat pro and optimising them for online publishing.  On my tablet I've noticed no decline in visual quality, but I've sure noticed some big speed improvements in rendering!

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51 minutes ago, Tupper said:

Looking at the newest version (there's a newer one since I downloaded last), it seems to be getting bigger.  According to its properties, it also hasn't been optimised.

I find quite a few pdfs (from various companies) can be a bit slow on the iPad.  I've got into the habit of feeding them through adobe acrobat pro and optimising them for online publishing.  On my tablet I've noticed no decline in visual quality, but I've sure noticed some big speed improvements in rendering!

No pay version of Adobe Pro here.  I use FoxIt Reader.  Can't seem to find a way to optimize in it.  Will keep looking.

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Well, the file has been amended, so that a tie is the same quality of success.  Of course, that means that if both get a standard success in an opposed roll it's a tie.  As far as I can see this will lead to a lot of ties.

So what happens in something like a race where both runners roll a standard success - who is the winner?  Do we just keep doing the roll again and again until there is a different quality result?  This is the entire reason other d100 systems adopted the blackjack approach, the higher numerical result within the same category of success wins, which minimises the chance of tie, after tie, after tie.  The other option is further below the threshold number of the current grade, but that involved subtraction on-the-fly, which can be tricky.

If someone can explain how the current approach avoids this, I would be grateful.

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33 minutes ago, Psychman27 said:

If someone can explain how the current approach avoids this, I would be grateful.

Well, it doesn't, that's clear.

Then again the blackjack rule doesn't entirely avoid it either, it just reduces it from a 58.75% chance (for 100% skills) to a 1% chance. For 75% skills it's a 37.37% chance of a tie.

I think I will use high-roll to break ties.

Edited by PhilHibbs
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4 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Then again the blackjack rule doesn't entirely avoid it either, it just reduces it from a 58.75% chance (for 100% skills) to a 1% chance

Which is certainly an improvement and probably good enough. You could set up another layer like on ties highest skill rating wins to reduce the chance to less than 1%. 

4 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I think I will use high-roll to break ties.

You might want to wait and see what Chaosium decides to do about it, first. I doubt they will leave it with a 30-60% chance of ties. So wait-unless you are already running a game, in which case you'll probably have to do something about it, at least for the short term. 

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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If you get the same type of result (standard success, special success, etc.) you tie or are stalemated in some fashion. 

What's next is up to you and the gamemaster to decide. You can try again when appropriate (depending on what task you're performing, but it would be wise to do what you can to change the circumstances before a second roll. Cast a spell, use a Passion to Inspire you, invoke a Rune, augment with another skill, or take some other measure to better your position or hinder the opposition.

For a smart opponent, the gamemaster should also also be thinking along these lines. 

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1 hour ago, Jason Durall said:

If you get the same type of result (standard success, special success, etc.) you tie or are stalemated in some fashion.

How do you envision a tie/stalemate playing out in the case of, say, Spot vs. Hide?

— 
Self-discipline isnt everything; look at Pol Pot.”
—Helen Fielding, Bridget Jones: The Edge of Reason

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1 hour ago, trystero said:

How do you envision a tie/stalemate playing out in the case of, say, Spot vs. Hide?

Not speaking for Jason, but I've come to my own understanding on this.

The text in book says a Tie result "means the situation is temporarily unresolved." It doesn't mean the actions of the charters are "tied" -- simply the die rolls.

If "the situation is temporarily unresolved" it means simply the situation is ongoing.

Let's assume the Spot vs. Hide is one guard looking in the Lunar Captain's 's chamber for a Orlanthi scoundrel.

In this case a tie means the hidden character may still yet be discovered, and the character searching has no yet noticed anything out of place but still might.

In addition to the details Jason mentioned, it means that any other details in the fiction continue to press on the characters. If more guards were called to help in the search then they will be arriving soon... and the Orlanthi does not have a chance to escape unnoticed since the still searching guard is blocking his escape. 

This means, in the next round, the Orlanthi could try to hide even better, or he might try to break for it before the additional guards arrive, and so on.

The key for me is to assume my job as a Referee is to keep other events and pressures impinging on an unresolved situation, increasing the stakes the longer it goes on.

When it comes to Two Losers we have: "Neither party achieves their intended goal."

This means that the Orlanthi failed to remain hidden (he makes a noise, alerting the guard, and must somehow reach a new place of safety) and the Guard failed to find him (so he's still searching, but now much more alert). Or I'm assuming that this means the Guard wanders off and someone else finds the Orlanthi. There are countless possibilities. The key (for me at least) is to add in, "Okay, what interesting new details can be added to the situation to make the next roll or decision fresh."

Edited by creativehum
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"But Pendragon isn’t intended to be historical, just fun.
So have fun."

-- Greg Stafford

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I think the race example is pretty easy in the ‘highest roll wins but they both succeeded and rolled the same number’ situation actually, it was so close everybody disagrees on who won.

Not quite sure how you do that in the levels of success method though. Both critical seems about right odds wise?

Check out the Runequest Glorantha Wiki for RQ links and resources. Any updates or contributions welcome!

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36 minutes ago, simonh said:

I think the race example...

Not quite sure how you do that in the levels of success method though.

For me, in the race example, a Tie means simply the race is not yet resolved.

I think the "yet" part is a really important part how I am interpreting and using the rules. Instead of the Conflict ending in a Tie, I assume the tie is ongoing.

So if Opposed rolls are made for a race and we get a Tie, instead of showing what happens at the finish line (which would be the resolution of the event) we actually zoom in somewhere along the race, where we see (and describe) the competitors neck and neck, or giving ground and losing ground back and forth.

The race is ongoing, we see what the situation is, and then determine if any new details are added to the conflict: Does the governor who has money on the NPC tell a magician to juice his man so he can win? Does the PC cast magic to improve his odds? Does the fact that the PC is losing to this man, and thus perhaps putting his city or clan at risk, provoke him to roll a Passion because he must win?

What I'm seeing in all the examples I've been running in my head is that while the combat system of RQ is quite precise in terms of inputs and outputs, Opposed Rolls with temporarily unresolved conflicts are invitation to add more details to the station as inspired by the situation and the results of the roll.

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"But Pendragon isn’t intended to be historical, just fun.
So have fun."

-- Greg Stafford

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1 hour ago, creativehum said:

In this case a tie means the hidden character may still yet be discovered, and the character searching has no yet noticed anything out of place but still might.

To me, this means the hidden character wins the contest, because they're still hidden and the guard hasn't spotted anything. The contest is between one character attempting to preserve the existing fictional situation and one attempting to change it: if the situation doesn't change, the first contestant has effectively won and the second has effectively lost.

Let me posit a slightly different fictional situation from yours: imagine a adventurer breaking into a palace to steal treasure, and trying to hide from a guard who's patrolling the palace. In the contest of Hide vs. Spot, the thief's goal is to remain unseen, while the guard's goal is to spot hidden intruders. As you interpret the both-succeed tie case above, the thief achieves their goal (remaining undiscovered), while the guard fails to achieve theirs (doesn't see anything). Worse, since the guard is going to move off and continue their patrol if they don't notice anything, they won't get another opportunity to roll; this means the tie is effectively a complete loss for them.

I think that if I had to interpret this situation per the rules as now written, I'd say that the guard catches a glimpse of something out of the corner of their eye and is alerted, but doesn't find the hidden thief's exact location. So the hidden adventurer is still hidden, but the guard is no longer unaware. That feels more like a tie to me; the situation changes, but only partly, and neither side achieves their goal completely but neither fails outright, either.

We have three contest mechanisms in RQ:G that I can think of:

  1. Combat rolls (e.g., attack vs. parry, attack vs. Dodge): No ties possible; either the attacker hits or they don't (though damage rolled or blocked may vary by degree of success).
  2. Resistance Table rolls (e.g., POW vs. POW): No ties possible; either the attacker overcomes the defender or they don't.
  3. Opposed rolls (e.g., Hide vs. Spot): Ties possible; a given opposed roll may or may not resolve a contest (and is unlikely to, for low skill chances).

Only opposed rolls offer the possibility of a stalemate. And sometimes this is appropriate; in a foot race, or a debate, you may get another chance to sway the situation in your favour, and it's fun to have the chance to risk an augment or otherwise change the circumstances in your favour. I'm not saying that ties are always unsatisfactory. But I'm concerned about their frequency: I don't want "stalemate factor" to be this game's equivalent of first-edition WFRP's "whiff factor".

So I'd definitely prefer to have some mechanism for breaking ties at times when I want to resolve a contest in a single roll, and will likely house-rule that the winner is the contestant with the higher dice roll (or the higher base chance, if a second level of tie-breaking is necessary).

— 
Self-discipline isnt everything; look at Pol Pot.”
—Helen Fielding, Bridget Jones: The Edge of Reason

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56 minutes ago, trystero said:

Worse, since the guard is going to move off and continue their patrol if they don't notice anything, they won't get another opportunity to roll; this means the tie is effectively a complete loss for them.

Note that in my example the guard is not moving off to continue his patrol. The Orlanthi is not safe yet because the guard is aware of something and the situation is continuing. I never assumed the guard was wandering off. That would, as you say, make it clear the Orlanthi had one the Opposed Roll. And he hasn't yet.

 

56 minutes ago, trystero said:

I think that if I had to interpret this situation per the rules as now written, I'd say that the guard catches a glimpse of something out of the corner of their eye and is alerted, but doesn't find the hidden thief's exact location. So the hidden adventurer is still hidden, but the guard is no longer unaware. That feels more like a tie to me; the situation changes, but only partly, and neither side achieves their goal completely but neither fails outright, either.

I would consider this a perfectly reasonable way of reading the situation. So I want to be clear, I don't think I'm really disagreeing or arguing with you.

Ultimately, though, all of this is going to come down to the situation. Not the situation anyone on this board might type up in a few sentences, but an actual, in-play situation, full of details that three to eight people sitting around a table might be holding in the heads, full of details that were just mentioned at the table, as well as details that might have been mentioned eight weeks of play earlier that suddenly seem relevant.

The value of the Opposed Roll tie is that it begs everyone at the table to add more content as the screws tighten, things could get worse, and the situation is still teetering at the edge of resolution. 

 

Again, I don't see the matter as a stalemate. The key word is "unresolved." There is a situation, it is ongoing, and since there was already tension of one kind or another (why else have a roll?) the fact that it is extending means things can get worse. Which is grist for the adventure mill and in my view awesome.

Edited by creativehum
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"But Pendragon isn’t intended to be historical, just fun.
So have fun."

-- Greg Stafford

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All cracking stuff, but I think a tie like this is also an opportunity for the GM to complicate the situation, or escalate it in some way. In a chase situation there is suddenly some obstacle or interference both sides must overcome.

In the hide and seek situation, the first guard moves on, but a new one arrives; or the guard’s commander shows up to perform a check; or there is a sudden commotion outside distracting the guard but attracting others; a cat distracts the guard, but now it’s wandering towards the PC.

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Check out the Runequest Glorantha Wiki for RQ links and resources. Any updates or contributions welcome!

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