Two weapons and multiple parries

[Mugen]

A question was asked earlier about what happens when someone decides to parry with both weapons, then do multiple parries, using the cumulative -20% chance to parry.

It's not clear what happens then. My reaction was to put the -20% malus to all parries after the first with each weapon, but it seems the rules reads that it's rather a -20% chance per parry with a weapon.

Another question is : what if a character attacks with both weapons. Does that mean he can't parry at all ? Once again, my reaction would be to let him parry, but with a -20% to its first attempt, treating his attack like its "base action" with this weapon this turn.

[Furry Fella]

The comparison is with deciding to go defensive with a weapon and a shield. It is perfectly reasonable to make a parry with each at full effect (just note you cannot attempt to parry the same attack twice). You get no attack or spell this still may well be a valid and useful tactic - say fighting retreat backing down a corridor as other depart, holding a choke point to let others use magic etc. A weapon in each hand is just the same

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

3 hours ago, Mugen said:

 

Another question is : what if a character attacks with both weapons. Does that mean he can't parry at all ? Once again, my reaction would be to let him parry, but with a -20% to its first attempt, treating his attack like its "base action" with this weapon this turn.

 

This is a good point.

My initial feeling would be to go with the simpler implementation of a cumulative - 20% to all further parries after the first no matter which weapon is used, as it would be easier to track.

However the description only specifies the one weapon in regards to the cumulative parry penalty, which would imply that a second weapon or shield's cumulative penalty is calculated separately. 

Quote

An adventurer may make a subsequent parry with a weapon they have already parried with. (Subsequent parries p200)

This would make it very advantageous against multiple attacks to have a shield and sword or two weapons combination. Though not forgetting as Furry Fella points out, only one parry per attack. 

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

4 hours ago, Mugen said:

Another question is : what if a character attacks with both weapons. Does that mean he can't parry at all ?

The RQG rules say that a parry does not use a strike rank, so you can attack and parry with the same weapon in the same melee round. The  -20% penalty is a way of balancing out the new freer use of parry.

So by this logic a two weapon user would be able to attack with both weapons (if enough strike ranks) and parry with both. 

[Mugen]

43 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

This is a good point.My initial feeling would be to go with the simpler implementation of a cumulative - 20% to all further parries after the first no matter which weapon is used, as it would be easier to track.

Why would you ever parry with your second weapon, then ?

Unless very specific circumstances such as losing the parrying weapon, or the arm carrying it.

33 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

The RQG rules say that a parry does not use a strike rank, so you can attack and parry with the same weapon in the same melee round. The  -20% penalty is a way of balancing out the new freer use of parry. 

So by this logic a two weapon user would be able to attack with both weapons (if enough strike ranks) and parry with both. 

I don't own the book, but based on this post in another thread, I understand the rules state that with 2 weapons, you can only attack twice or parry twice or attack and parry once with each weapon (just like in RQ3).

So, question is : how do these rules interact ?

Edited June 26, 2018 by Mugen

[Psullie]

One of the things I liked about RQ was that shields were active and not something that passively improved your armour. I always took the view that they were no different than weapons in that you learned the skill and fought with them, they were naturally better at parrying than attacking but not exclusive, so essentially a sword/shield combo was already using two weapons. You can attack with both, parry with both or one each (and the choice was the players). Now that the attack and parry skills are one it does change the mechanic and therefore weapon choice, but the fundamentals are the same, you are using two weapons wether its a sword/axe or sword/shield. 

I think the attack/parry choice remains the same, the only difference is that you can now make extra parries at cumulative -20% after the first - it does't matter which weapon you choose to make the parry.

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

1 hour ago, Mugen said:

Why would you ever parry with your second weapon, then ?

I guess damage to parrying weapons is a real threat in RQ, with the possibility of weapons breaking. So parrying with a second weapon will keep the attacking weapon healthy. 

The rules as written do suggest a cumulative parrying penalty for each separate weapon. However my own personal approach may differ, favouring simplification to a single cumulative penalty for all weapons.

1 hour ago, Mugen said:

I don't own the book, but based on this post in another thread, I understand the rules state that with 2 weapons, you can only attack twice or parry twice or attack and parry once with each weapon (just like in RQ3).

You're right. I'd forgotten about the ruling on the 2 weapon use. It's clearly repeated and stated in RQG as well.

To me this reads oddly, and may be an error?  

It doesn't feel like its  been properly integrated with the new ruling on parries, as the wording is the same as it was in RQ2, when parries were limited to one attempt per round. There is now no limit to the number of parries per melee round. In light of this I see no need to state how many parries are possible with 2 weapon use, as RQG allows multiple parries with each weapon ( per attack) Perhaps the wording needs to be changed?  Maybe @Jason Durall could comment?

 

Edit: basically what I’m trying to say is there is no need to state how many parries are possible with 2 weapon use in the new RQG. Instead perhaps just an extra clarification of whether the culmaltive -20% parry penalty applies separately for each weapon or regardless of weapon used. 

Edited June 26, 2018 by Paid a bod yn dwp

[styopa]

2 hours ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

I guess damage to parrying weapons is a real threat in RQ, with the possibility of weapons breaking. So parrying with a second weapon will keep the attacking weapon healthy. 

Sounds like rationalizing ?  It's pretty unlikely a weapon's going to fail without a fair bit of wearing-down.  It's a lot simpler just to say "these mechanics don't really justify why you'd parry with an offhand weapon".

2 hours ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

To me this reads oddly, and may be an error?  

It doesn't feel like its  been properly integrated with the new ruling on parries, as the wording is the same as it was in RQ2...

It seems there was a fair amount of cutting and pasting, with the volume of material being so much that there are a few points where the differences between pasted text and new rules weren't thoroughly reconciled.

[Mugen]

4 hours ago, Psullie said:

I think the attack/parry choice remains the same, the only difference is that you can now make extra parries at cumulative -20% after the first - it does't matter which weapon you choose to make the parry.

But if you parry with both weapons in a turn, you can't attack at all.

If you get a -20% modifier no matter what weapon you use to parry, you're just sacrificing your attack potential with no benefit.

[Psullie]

2 minutes ago, Mugen said:

But if you parry with both weapons in a turn, you can't attack at all.

If you get a -20% modifier no matter what weapon you use to parry, you're just sacrificing your attack potential with no benefit.

If you parry with both weapons in lieu of any attacks then both parries are at full potential, only subsequent parries suffer the penalty - this is how I'd play it...

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

32 minutes ago, Mugen said:

But if you parry with both weapons in a turn, you can't attack at all.

If you get a -20% modifier no matter what weapon you use to parry, you're just sacrificing your attack potential with no benefit.

In the new RQG you don’t sacrifice a parry in place of an attack. Parries are reactive and stand outside of the strike rank system. There is no limit to the number of parries, only a cumulative -20% 

That’s why I think the lifting of the text from RQ2 on fighting with two weapons is misleading. It indicates a limit on the number of parries possible where there shouldn’t be. 

Edited June 26, 2018 by Paid a bod yn dwp

[simonh]

23 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

In the new RQG you don’t sacrifice a parry in place of an attack. Parries are reactive and stand outside of the strike rank system. There is no limit to the number of parries, only a cumulative -20% 

That’s why I think the lifting of the text from RQ2 on fighting with two weapons is misleading. It indicates a limit on the number of parries possible where there shouldn’t be. 

Yes I agree it could be clearer, but if the intent is that wielding two weapons gives you and extra option to parry twice at full chance if forgo your attack, that's a useful option to have. 

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

33 minutes ago, simonh said:

if the intent is that wielding two weapons gives you and extra option to parry twice at full chance if forgo your attack, that's a useful option to have. 

A chance at two parries at full % yes, but I don’t think the new RQG rules intend that you have to forgo your attack for a parry with two weapons. That feels like a hangover from RQ2 where the number of parries was limited. 

Edited June 26, 2018 by Paid a bod yn dwp

[simonh]

47 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

A chance at two parries at full % yes, but I don’t think the new RQG rules intend that you have to forgo your attack for a parry with two weapons. That feels like a hangover from RQ2 where the number of parries was limited. 

You don't have to forego it to parry multiple times though. There's nothing there that says you can't still attack and use the option of multiple parries with a cumulative -20 each time after the first. Nothing is being taken away from you.

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

1 hour ago, simonh said:

You don't have to forego it to parry multiple times though. There's nothing there that says you can't still attack and use the option of multiple parries with a cumulative -20 each time after the first.

Yep. Thats my interpretation too. 

Edited June 26, 2018 by Paid a bod yn dwp

[simonh]

I've watched some Youtube videos on historical close combat techniques, so I'm no expert but these people do seem to know what they're talking about and demonstrating.

It does like having two weapons should confer a general advantage in combat to both attack and parry over having a single weapon. I'm not sure how to represent that in a game though. The thing is, while two weapons is better than one, a weapon and shield is better still in pretty much every respect - offensive as well as defensive.

One thing I'm thinking about is giving players a choice. If you take two weapons - two swords, two axes, whatever, you can choose to have that as your main style and get a one-time 10% bonus on that skill. However, if you ever find yourself down to just one of them, you're at a -20 penalty. Otherwise if you train with just one, having two of them just gives you a +5%. Something like that maybe?

Honestly the rules as is work fine though.

Edited June 26, 2018 by simonh

[styopa]

If you wanted to get into the weeds of simulation, one could just say that vs someone with a shield, your OWN parry is +10% (as you can nearly guarantee which direction the attack is coming from, and a shield bash is itself pretty clumsy), likewise vs someone with 2 weapons your parry is -10% because you have to respect that an attack could come from either one.  (Or if the logic makes more sense reversed, using a shield gives the opponent a bonus to parry, using 2 weapons gives the opponent a malus to parry.)

Not sure either the bonus or penalty would apply to dodge though...is have to think that through.

One could go further and apply the minus whenever someone is facing an opponent (like a hydra) whose attacks could come from various directions.

 

In any case, then you have a small mechanic that would incentivize or de-incentivize dual wielding for someone who really wanted that edge.

[Ian_W]

36 minutes ago, styopa said:

If you wanted to get into the weeds of simulation

Trust me, you don't want to do this - for a start, 12 seconds is just about forever in combat, with a tempo allow acting/reacting being about 0.25 seconds for most people.

(Ive been doing historical swordsmanship for about 15 years now, and Im decently good at it).

Sword and shield is two weapons, and there isnt that much difference at parrying with a shield and parrying with a weapon - it's about controlling lines, the initiative or the geometry (depending if you're italian, german or spanish). A "successful parry" could just be about making the attack not happen, as the opponent recognises that going through with the shot they've prepared will just end up with their weapon controlled. You also dont want to go down the rabbit hole of true edge vs false edge parries, and the rest of it

Regarding two weapon fighting, its mostly about using one weapon to open a hole for the other weapon to hit through, ideally with a body fake to put them into false distance or moving the wrong way - in RQQ terms using one of your Sword skills and your Battle skill as assists to push your other Sword skill well over 100% and thereby reduce their active defence

The way Id do it is leave Rules As Written, but have a special cult skill for a Humakt/Jar Eel/Whoever subcult for Two Weapon Fighting to reflect how you can get the two weapons to help each other, including neat stuff like allowing them both to parry a given attack, parrying arrows and parrying without damaging your weapon. This way, you have Mystery Cults that deal with the secrets of hip flicks, back edge motion, control of the line, lying in the speaking window and all that other good stuff without going to deep into the simulationist weeds.

Edited June 26, 2018 by Ian_W

[Mugen]

11 hours ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

In the new RQG you don’t sacrifice a parry in place of an attack. Parries are reactive and stand outside of the strike rank system. There is no limit to the number of parries, only a cumulative -20% 

That’s why I think the lifting of the text from RQ2 on fighting with two weapons is misleading. It indicates a limit on the number of parries possible where there shouldn’t be. 

Yes, I understand this perfectly. Nevertheless, two rules co-exist in RQG, and their interaction is not clear.

-Multiple parries : you can parry multiple times with the same weapon, with a cumulative -20% after the first.

-Limitation on'the number of actions with 2 weapons : eitheir 1 attack and 1 parry with each weapon, 1 parry with each, 1 attack with each.

If you chose to attack and parry, the rule application is clear : you can attack once and parry multiple times, but parries must be with 1 weapon (with a cumulative malus) and the attack (or attacks if you split it) with the other weapon.

Attacking with two weapons seems clear to me, too : you can't parry at all. That's harsh, however, in a game where unlimited parries are allowed.

Parrying with both weapons is problematic, and there are three options :

-Put a cumulative -20% for each parry after the first, no matter what weapon you use : not a very good option considering the character can't attack.

-Put a cumulative -20% for each parry after the first parry with each weapon. Better option.

-Make a literal read of the rule, and apply the cumulative modifiers to each weapons individually (that is, if you parry three times with the same weapon then twice with the other, the malus will be 0, -20, -40, then 0 and -20). That would be my interpretation.

Another question is : how dodge interact with those rules ? Can you have 2 dodges with no cumulative modifiers, or is dodging multiple times without attacking just wasting an attack opportunity ?

[Atgxtg]

6 hours ago, Ian_W said:

The way Id do it is leave Rules As Written, but have a special cult skill for a Humakt/Jar Eel/Whoever subcult for Two Weapon Fighting to reflect how you can get the two weapons to help each other, including neat stuff like allowing them both to parry a given attack, parrying arrows and parrying without damaging your weapon. This way, you have Mystery Cults that deal with the secrets of hip flicks, back edge motion, control of the line, lying in the speaking window and all that other good stuff without going to deep into the simulationist weeds.

How about using the secondary weapon to augment the first?

[Ian_W]

15 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

How about using the secondary weapon to augment the first?

The Mystery Cult skill would be on top of that, to allow a Left-Augment-Right, Right-Augment-Left, Right-Augment-Battle, and Left-Augment--2 Hand Secrets

 

Its a little munchkin'y, but hey, thats our Arkat

Edited June 27, 2018 by Ian_W

[RosenMcStern]

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

How about using the secondary weapon to augment the first?

I think that the rules limit augments to one roll per session, so this would only be possible during the first round of combat, if possible at all. Not a general solution to the two-weapon dilemma, then.

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

3 hours ago, Mugen said:

Attacking with two weapons seems clear to me, too : you can't parry at all. That's harsh, however, in a game where unlimited parries are allowed.

Edit: I had missed the two weapon rule that if you attack twice you loose parry.

Yes it does seem counter intuitive to the the standard rule on parries in RQG. Perhaps that’s the price you have to pay for all out attacks with 2 weapons? Either that or it hasn’t been properly interpreted with the new rules? 

The plus is you can be a super parrier or super attacker. Just not both RAW

3 hours ago, Mugen said:

Another question is : how dodge interact with those rules ? Can you have 2 dodges with no cumulative modifiers, or is dodging multiple times without attacking just wasting an attack opportunity ?

Dodge is used instead of parry. It’s effective against all attacks that can be perceived. Though you have to roll separately against each, and as with parry with a cumulative - 20% after the first dodge. 

Theres nothing to say you can’t attack and dodge in the same round. Which I guess means good news for 2 weapon use. A two weapon user (RAW) would be able to attack twice and also dodge. 

Edited June 27, 2018 by Paid a bod yn dwp

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

1 hour ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Perhaps that’s the price you have to pay for all out attacks with 2 weapons? Either that or it hasn’t been properly interpreted with the new rules? 

After rereading the rule I’m more inclined to see this as intentional design to keep a balance of sorts to two weapon use. An exception to the normal rule on parry 

[deleriad]

Based on how I used to play it in RQ2 and bearing in mind that the RQG rulebook seems very opaque. 

Each round, if you are in melee you can make:

• 1 attack and 1 parry - this can be with the same weapon
• 1 attack and 1 dodge (clearly the dodge option didn't exist in RQ2.)
• 2 attacks - but this must be with two different melee weapons
• 2 parries - with different weapons
• 1 parry and 1 dodge

I interpret the subsequent parry rule as pertaining to the weapon being used. So if using two weapons to parry I could parry once with a shield at full value, then use the subsequent parry rule again at -20%, then parry with a different weapon (e.g. a sword) at full value and so on.

Again, back in RQ2 days there was nothing stopping you using a natural weapon (head butt, kick etc) as your second attack but you often wouldn't have enough SRs for it. I don't see any reason why you can't do this in RQG. The rulebook does seem to forget that fighting with two weapons is pretty much the default in RQ: weapon and shield.