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Two weapons and multiple parries

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23 minutes ago, Jason Durall said:

I should also clarify that personally, I find strike ranks to be frustratingly inconsistent in execution, and my least favorite part of the entire BRP/RQ system.

Sometimes they're a means of ordering attacks by first to last, sometimes they're an action point allowance. Both work in entirely different fashions. 

Can you expand a bit on this? I dont quite understand what you mean by that and how it differs so much from the Stormbringer approach.

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18 minutes ago, DreadDomain said:

Can you expand a bit on this? I dont quite understand what you mean by that and how it differs so much from the Stormbringer approach.

StormBringer used reverse DEX order to determine initiative.

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1 hour ago, Mugen said:

StormBringer used reverse DEX order to determine initiative.

It’s my preferred way too. Pretty much all the other BRP game do this such as Call of Cthulhu, Elric, Magic World, etc. It’s simple, consistent between different weapons and types of action, and still allows for delayed and multiple actions such as reloading or second attacks with a -5 modifier on DEX.

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4 hours ago, Jason Durall said:

Yes. 

This is the biggest change to RQ2/RQ3 SRs since, well 1977. 

As a summary, providing you are wielding two weapons and have the SRs to use them you can attack with both them while still being able to parry/dodge. Shields are now considered to be a "weapon" for this purpose.

The sentence in the rulebook page 219: "It is possible to attack with a shield, giving up the chance of parrying that round" is no longer true?

At the risk of being philosophical - what else counts as a weapon?

  • Something like a cestus? Presumably yes.
  • A natural weapon something like a scorpion folk stinger or Broo headbutt? (In past RQ these were counted as additional attacks that could be made so would conform to the ruling.)
  • Another natural weapon like fist, kick or headbutt.

The result of this ruling is that any character with a Melee SR of 3 or less (i.e. DEX SR 1, SIZ SR 2) will always be able to attack twice each round with different "weapons" without needing to split attacks while parrying/dodging normally. I don't know if that's how RQG was played during playtesting but it is massively different to how RQ2/RQ3 worked. In the example of combat on page 206, Vasana drops her sword in order to make a shield attack.

 

 

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2 hours ago, deleriad said:

The sentence in the rulebook page 219: "It is possible to attack with a shield, giving up the chance of parrying that round" is no longer true?

That still remains true according to Jason. You give up a a chance to parry with a shield if you attack with it.

On 7/7/2018 at 1:59 PM, Jason Durall said:

Why would anyone use a shield? 

You can't parry missile weapons with a hand weapon, though your GM may decide to let you try at some astronomically low chance of success. (Maybe a Martial Arts roll?) Shields are also more durable than most weapons, and offer passive defense, even when slung. You can also do mass combat formations with shields. 

If you choose to attempt a knockback attack with your shield, you attack on SR 12 and can't parry with it that round. 

 

Though i’m still not sure if you also give up chance to parry and attack with a weapon held in the other hand by doing this? And Is dodge still possible if you make a shield attack?

I would guess that the RQG approach would be the more straightforward route i.e. it’s just the shield parry you give up, but a last clarification from Jason would be appreciated. 

 

Edited by Paid a bod yn dwp

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Why would anyone want to use a small or medium shield when you have 12 HP with a Broadsword, Kopis, Shortsword or 10 HP Mace, but you get two attacks and still get chance to parry (multiple times, skill allowing)?

Will it not mean that the two weapon attacker should be the default option?

A counter argument for shield use might be that large shields have superior HP (16), and they are they way to go. And shields are good for projectile missiles. 

However as it stands my preferred option would be the two weapon one. 

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26 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Why would attacking with a shield render you unable yo parry but, an even shorter dagger can parry and still attack in the same round?

Precisely because a dagger is shorter and can be realigned quickly. A medium or large shield is fairly bulky. Attacking with its edge brings it out of its protective alignment, and using it for a body slam locks it with the body in question unless you succeed in a knockback.

I wonder whether we might see rules for locked weapons and subsequent wrestling or kicking, perhaps in the shape of martial arts.

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6 hours ago, Jason Durall said:

I should also clarify that personally, I find strike ranks to be frustratingly inconsistent in execution, and my least favorite part of the entire BRP/RQ system.

Sometimes they're a means of ordering attacks by first to last, sometimes they're an action point allowance. Both work in entirely different fashions.

It is sad to hear you say so, Jason. And yet I am afraid that what you say is true. On the other hand, it is refreshing to see a line manager being so open and transparent with his customer base as to admit that there are lights and shadows in his "creature". After all, no rules are perfect.

I have one last question (actually, I am repeating someone else's question): does a secondary attack with a shield follow normal two-weapon rules or does it "lock" the attack to SR 12? And does it prevent parrying with the shield, or parrying altogether?

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3 hours ago, deleriad said:

The result of this ruling is that any character with a Melee SR of 3 or less (i.e. DEX SR 1, SIZ SR 2) will always be able to attack twice each round with different "weapons" without needing to split attacks while parrying/dodging normally. I don't know if that's how RQG was played during playtesting but it is massively different to how RQ2/RQ3 worked. In the example of combat on page 206, Vasana drops her sword in order to make a shield attack.

This made me think of the gap between characters with 2 and 3 Combat Actions in Mythras - except, of course, in RQG it will only affect dual wielders.

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34 minutes ago, Mugen said:

This made me think of the gap between characters with 2 and 3 Combat Actions in Mythras - except, of course, in RQG it will only affect dual wielders.

Excluding Vishi Dunn, all other sample characters are dual wielders or weapon&shield wielders, or both.

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I don't think any of the pre-gen characters are dual welders no matter how many individual weapon skills they have. The rules state everyone is right handed and left handed weapons have to be tracked separately. 

 

.The player must keep track of the individual 
weapon expertise of the adventurer with each 
weapon as used in each hand. Training or experi-
ence in using a weapon left-handed does not help 
the right-handed attack or parry with the same 
weapon, except that the half effectiveness rule 
applies. For example, use of a dagger left-handed, 
allows the adventurer to use it right-handed at half 
the left-handed ability.

 

This leada me to believe we would see an npc or pre-gen clearly indicate a left hand broadsword skill if they were going to be built with RAW. 

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Literally in that same page preceding paragraph it says they all start at 05% in the off hand which makes me wonder what the heck the intent was overall for gaining or maintaining multiple weapons skills per hand.

 

Does my Humakti get to pick up a broadsword at 40 some percent in the left hand because he started at 80 (+15 manipulation) at character creation?  

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8 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Literally in that same page preceding paragraph it says they all start at 05% in the off hand which makes me wonder what the heck the intent was overall for gaining or maintaining multiple weapons skills per hand.

 

Does my Humakti get to pick up a broadsword at 40 some percent in the left hand because he started at 80 (+15 manipulation) at character creation?  

Historically the answer to that is "yes." If you invest in a lot of off-hand training, your off-hand skill will eventually be better than simply using half your normal hand skill. (Technically you also need 1.5 times the normal DEX requirement but that is only DEX 10 (after multiplication) for Broadsword so not really a big deal. 

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17 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Does my Humakti get to pick up a broadsword at 40 some percent in the left hand because he started at 80 (+15 manipulation) at character creation?  

And your Manipulation bonus only added 7.5 to your left hand skill.

Edited by Mugen

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4 hours ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

That still remains true according to Jason. You give up a a chance to parry with a shield if you attack with it.

That is only in reference to a knockback attempt in Jason's post not a normal shield attack. (My bad because I think I managed to confuse the two rules.)

1 hour ago, Mugen said:

This made me think of the gap between characters with 2 and 3 Combat Actions in Mythras - except, of course, in RQG it will only affect dual wielders.

Though it does of course depend on what is meant by dual wielding. If I have a cestus on my left hand I can attack with weapon and cestus but what about punching someone if (for argument's sake) my cestus fell off? Or sword plus chair-leg etc.? 

What this reminds me of is MRQ1 where a late change in the combat system wasn't properly reflected in the rulebook leading to all sorts of confusion. I suspect there has been some crossed wires somewhere. 

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15 minutes ago, deleriad said:

Historically the answer to that is "yes." If you invest in a lot of off-hand training, your off-hand skill will eventually be better than simply using half your normal hand skill. (Technically you also need 1.5 times the normal DEX requirement but that is only DEX 10 (after multiplication) for Broadsword so not really a big deal. 

I understand but, my question really comes down to what should I do as a player. For the starting Humakti example with a main hand broadsword skill at 80 (+15). Should I have a 40% LH Broadsword +manipulation bonus? Should I have 05% and have to train it up? If I start at 40% because of my main hand experience does it then begin to train separately onve I pick a sword up and fight with it off handed? Does manipulation bonus get nerfed when you use your offhand?

 

I like the idea that knowledge with a weapon helps use it in the other hand, basic principles apply and instincts are being built. 

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16 minutes ago, deleriad said:

Though it does of course depend on what is meant by dual wielding. If I have a cestus on my left hand I can attack with weapon and cestus but what about punching someone if (for argument's sake) my cestus fell off? Or sword plus chair-leg etc.? 

Cestus and fist are the same skill, so you use your off-hand fist skill for either.

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1 minute ago, deleriad said:

That is only in reference to a knockback attempt in Jason's post not a normal shield attack. (My bad because I think I managed to confuse the two rules.)

Though it does of course depend on what is meant by dual wielding. If I have a cestus on my left hand I can attack with weapon and cestus but what about punching someone if (for argument's sake) my cestus fell off? Or sword plus chair-leg etc.? 

What this reminds me of is MRQ1 where a late change in the combat system wasn't properly reflected in the rulebook leading to all sorts of confusion. I suspect there has been some crossed wires somewhere. 

Why punch someone for 1D3 plus damage bonus when a kick can do 1D6 plus damage bonus? Unless you are a disciple of martial arts, too. I have to admit that in RQ3 kicking usually was reserved against opponents who already had parried that melee round, as a sword parrying a kick would be painful. Some tripping action with the legs might fall under grappling, although the description in RQG remains silent about this.

 

1 minute ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

I understand but, my question really comes down to what should I do as a player. For the starting Humakti example with a main hand broadsword skill at 80 (+15). Should I have a 40% LH Broadsword +manipulation bonus? Should I have 05% and have to train it up? If I start at 40% because of my main hand experience does it then begin to train separately onve I pick a sword up and fight with it off handed? Does manipulation bonus get nerfed when you use your offhand?

 

I like the idea that knowledge with a weapon helps use it in the other hand, basic principles apply and instincts are being built. 

Coming from a two-handed sword style where it is still possible to use the blade one-handed in either hand, I would definitely use half that skill for the off-hand one-handed use, and half that penalty for dominant hand one-handed use, unless one-handed sword has already been trained higher for either hand.

Albrecht Dürer's fencing book (or other such manuals) shows a mix of grappling and sword action in quite a few of the tableaus, apparently out of situations with locked blades. Given that the contemporary books for unarmed combat aren't that different from modern Asian techniques or Hellenic pancration, I don't see why those sword techniques would have been "modern" developments of the Renaissance. 

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24 minutes ago, deleriad said:

That is only in reference to a knockback attempt in Jason's post not a normal shield attack. (My bad because I think I managed to confuse the two rules.)

Yes, but the section on shield attacks in RQG p219, is i think clear on this matter. It is referring to all types of shield attacks, not just the knockback attack.

Though I'd still like clarification on whether if you attack with a shield, are you allowed to attack/parry with a weapon in the other hand? And can you still Dodge?

Edited by Paid a bod yn dwp

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9 hours ago, Jason Durall said:

I should also clarify that personally, I find strike ranks to be frustratingly inconsistent in execution, and my least favorite part of the entire BRP/RQ system.

Sometimes they're a means of ordering attacks by first to last, sometimes they're an action point allowance. Both work in entirely different fashions. 

My preference is for the simplicity of Stormbringer when it comes to determining who attacks when, and how often. 

 

9 hours ago, DreadDomain said:

Can you expand a bit on this? I dont quite understand what you mean by that and how it differs so much from the Stormbringer approach.

 

9 hours ago, Mugen said:

StormBringer used reverse DEX order to determine initiative.

Sorry, I wasn't clear, I know how it works in Stormbringer. My questions to @Jason Durall (and others) were:

A) what does he mean by that: Sometimes they're a means of ordering attacks by first to last, sometimes they're an action point allowance. Both work in entirely different fashions. If I understand correctly, the former relates to actions raking place in SR order while the latter refers to actions being limited to a total of 12 SR. If it is the case, how does he see that as working in entirely different fashions?

B) while Stormbringer has a simpler approach, DEX Ranks serves pretty much the same functions aren't they? What makes them work better then?

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A couple of thoughts of duel wielding being the default:

First the rules say a trainer must be found, at the discretion of the Referee. So, if the Referee says a trainer isn't yet available to the PCs, then the PCs will not be starting as duel-wielding combatants. 

Then the PCs, if they want this ability, have to seek out a trainer, and get him to take them on as students. (I'm seeing some effort (if not adventures) in this.)

Second, the PCs will have to raise their off-hand skill starting at 5% (with Manipulation modifier). This means that training up will be a slog.  Apart from downtime/seasonal training the character will have to spend time attacking and parrying with a low chance of success. For a few fights. This means, if I'm reading the rules right (new to RQ) lots of broken weapons and incoming blows with extra damage from opponents.

It is for this reason I think there are very few duel-weapon trainers. It's hard to get good at it... and risky to try to get good at it.

So while becoming a skilled duel-wielder will undoubtedly be a good thing to become, getting there is going to both take time and be risky... if the PCs are even able to begin training toward this goal at all.

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This is not the case, Creativehum. Jason has clarified that making a second attack does not impair your ability to parry in any way. Thus, even if you start very low with your secondary weapon, you still get a free second attack with it, and a full efficiency parry with the main hand. And once you connect with this second attack, you have an experience check that will eventually raise your skill. Whenever you are not expecting missile fire, using a secondary weapon for which you have the necessary Strike Rank instead of a shield has little or no counter-indications, and a world of advantages.

Plus Jason still has to reply about being able to attack with a shield and attacking and parrying with the weapon in the same round.

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I have nostalgic memories of using the SR system in RQ2 and RQ3. The 10 rounds of RQ3 SR combat round felt 'neater' for some reason, but I see why RQG has gone back to the RQ2 version to keep things consistent with the RQ2 stat blocks in the RQ Classic reprints.

Despite such, I can see why BRP games moved into the DEX ranks system instead, it may have solved some of the issues arising in this thread. 

 

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