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Two weapons and multiple parries

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On 7/9/2018 at 10:17 AM, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

We know we lose the chance to parry with a shield if we attack with it ( knockback or standard), but we don’t know whether you can still parry and attack with a weapon in the other hand if you attack with a shield? And likewise can you still dodge if you make an attack with a shield?

@Jason Durall sorry to press on this, just a last point of clarification needed when your time allows. Much appreciated 

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On 7/5/2018 at 1:39 AM, Jason Durall said:

It's on the boat. We'll have to clarify in future print runs and via a FAQ. 

Soooo ...  RQG core rulebooks are on the Slow Boats From China ?

🙂

Any chance we can get the ship-info, the way happened with "Ships of Cthulhu" & the RQClassic KS ?   Or is that a KickStarter-only sort of perq?

Many thanks!

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4 hours ago, g33k said:

Any chance we can get the ship-info, the way happened with "Ships of Cthulhu" & the RQClassic KS ?   Or is that a KickStarter-only sort of perq?

I think it’s a “we’re not utterly slammed with a hundred other projects” perk.

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On 7/13/2018 at 3:39 PM, simonh said:

I think it’s a “we’re not utterly slammed with a hundred other projects” perk.

I'm in the logistics industry, if someone can provide a container number or even a vessel/voyage I can trace it.

Hint: what ever eta the forwarder told you is usually optimistic, unrealistic, and particularly in today's widespread network trucking and intermodal shortages, a week or more wrong.

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On 7/9/2018 at 10:17 AM, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

We know we lose the chance to parry with a shield if we attack with it ( knockback or standard), but we don’t know whether you can still parry and attack with a weapon in the other hand if you attack with a shield? And likewise can you still dodge if you make an attack with a shield? 

@Jason Durall figured this last point of clarification may have got lost in recent posts.

Could you please address these final outstanding points from this post? Many thanks

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Will these all "clarifications" be included in the second printing, or the core combat rules of the game will depend on a thread of a forum?

Edited by kiryamo
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7 hours ago, kiryamo said:

Will these all "clarifications" be included in the second printing, or the core combat rules of the game will depend on a thread of a forum?

IMO that's pretty confrontational?  And I'm a fairly confrontational person in the first place.

As far as I know they've been great about including edits in the pdfs, and then (insofar as possible) including the latest-possible version when it's submitted for printing.  I'd guess insofar as they're able, yes, they will... but the simple fact is a dead-Aldryami edition simply cannot keep up with the stream of edits, clarifications, and amendments we now have access to in 2019.  At some point you have to kick the product to the printer and say it's "done enough" to get printed.  

I have the first printing, and there's a ton of edits since then.  It's the price of being an early adopter.

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9 hours ago, kiryamo said:

Will these all "clarifications" be included in the second printing, or the core combat rules of the game will depend on a thread of a forum?

In answer to your question. Yes, the rules error I and others picked up on is corrected in latest PDF (regarding parries with two weapon fighting), and will be in second printing. Other things in this thread are more about interpretation and not errors as such. Not sure to what extent they’ve been clarified in latest printing? But it’s easy to gain clarity on those things in the pinned official Q&A topic by Jason Durall...or asking questions here. 

 

Edit: all the queries brought up in this topic have been addressed by Jason Durall. 

Edited by Paid a bod yn dwp
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15 hours ago, styopa said:

IMO that's pretty confrontational?  And I'm a fairly confrontational person in the first place.

As far as I know they've been great about including edits in the pdfs, and then (insofar as possible) including the latest-possible version when it's submitted for printing.  I'd guess insofar as they're able, yes, they will... but the simple fact is a dead-Aldryami edition simply cannot keep up with the stream of edits, clarifications, and amendments we now have access to in 2019.  At some point you have to kick the product to the printer and say it's "done enough" to get printed.  

I have the first printing, and there's a ton of edits since then.  It's the price of being an early adopter.

 

Not trying to seem confrontational, but disquiet...

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17 hours ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

In answer to your question. Yes, the rules error I and others picked up on is corrected in latest PDF (regarding parries with two weapon fighting), and will be in second printing. Other things in this thread are more about interpretation and not errors as such. Not sure to what extent they’ve been clarified in latest printing? But it’s easy to gain clarity on those things in the pinned official Q&A topic by Jason Durall...or asking questions here. 

 

Edit: all the queries brought up in this topic have been addressed by Jason Durall. 

Well, in the pdf collecting changes made, the rule on page 224 seemed to be still very confusing.

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2 hours ago, Mugen said:

Well, in the pdf collecting changes made, the rule on page 224 seemed to be still very confusing.

Lets have look at the changed text in RQG...

Quote

Any adventurer using a weapon in each hand may use them for two attacks or attacking with one and parrying with the other, as desired.

I see what you mean, although an improvement, it could still be interpreted as suggesting that its a choice between attacking or parrying.

RAW you can can attack with both weapons and parry at the same time. Parry is mechanically unchanged in two-weapon fighting, and works exactly the same as 1 weapon fighting, though you can designate which sword is parrying and therefore open to potential damage.

With that in mind perhaps @Jason Durall could reword that sentence to something like this?:

  • Any adventurer using a weapon in each hand may use them for two attacks, and may choose to parry with either weapon alternating for each parry as desired. Multiple parries are subject to the culmaltive penalty.
  • Any adventurer using a weapon in each hand may use them for two attacks, and may choose either weapon to parry an attack once.
Edited by Paid a bod yn dwp
Added "once" for clearer definition of the rule

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26 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Lets have look at the changed text in RQG...

I see what you mean, although an improvement, it could still be interpreted as suggesting that its a choice between attacking or parrying.

RAW you can can attack with both weapons and parry at the same time. Parry is mechanically unchanged in two-weapon fighting, and works exactly the same as 1 weapon fighting, though you can designate which sword is parrying and therefore open to potential damage.

With that in mind perhaps @Jason Durall could reword that sentence to something like this?:

  • Any adventurer using a weapon in each hand may use them for two attacks, and may choose to parry with either weapon alternating for each parry as desired. Multiple parries are subject to the culmaltive penalty.
  • Any adventurer using a weapon in each hand may use them for two attacks, and may choose either weapon to parry an attack once.

My own wording would be something like that:

1) You can attack once with your main weapon, unless you split your attack skill. If you have an offhand weapon, you can also attack with it at SR equal to the sum of both weapon's SR, if it is lower than or equal to 12.

2) You can parry or dodge multiple times. Each subsequent attempt suffers a cumulative -20% penalty, no matter what skill or weapon was used. If you hold two weapons, you can chose your main or off-hand weapon to parry without any restriction.

 

Edited by Mugen

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4 minutes ago, Mugen said:

My own wording would be something like that:

1) You can attack once with your main weapon, unless you split your attack skill. If you have an offhand weapon, you can also attack with it at SR equal to the sum of both weapon's SR, if it is lower than or equal to 12.

2) You can parry or dodge multiple times. Each subsequent attempt suffers a cumulative -20% penalty, no matter what skill or weapon was used. If you hold two weapons, you can chose your main or off-hand weapon to parry without any restriction.

 

I was looking at minimal edit, to fit in with what is already covered in the other bullet points, which brought me to this option:

 

34 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Any adventurer using a weapon in each hand may use them for two attacks, and may choose either weapon to parry an attack once.

 

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13 minutes ago, Mugen said:

2) You can parry or dodge multiple times. Each subsequent attempt suffers a cumulative -20% penalty, no matter what skill or weapon was used. If you hold two weapons, you can chose your main or off-hand weapon to parry without any restriction.

Also, as written, regardless of facing or SR. There are no rules about parrying attacks from behind or above, or parrying two attacks that happen on the same SR, on on the same SR that you attack on. I'm sure that is intended to be left to the GM, and the facing bonus to attack already takes this somewhat into account.

I just had a bit of a knockabout on another thread regarding this - SR are not literally mapped 1-to-1 to real world time. If you always attack on the same SR, your swings are not always precisely 12 seconds apart, and therefore two people who "always" attack on SR5 do not always attack simultaneously.

If you want to model simultaneous attacks, you need a rule that models two coordinated attackers making a deliberate effort to act in concert. Maybe something like the aimed blow rule - delay your attacks, take a penalty to hit (probably not as much as half chance), but with a bigger penalty to the target's two parries. That way two or more organized people can more effectively gang up on a higher skilled opponent, without relying on the happenstance of attacks coming in at the same abstracted SR.

Personally I do not want such a rule, it's an unnecessary complication and I prefer the more heroic style of fight where a skilled warrior can take on large groups à la Crazy 88.

Edited by PhilHibbs

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1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

I just had a bit of a knockabout on another thread regarding this - SR are not literally mapped 1-to-1 to real world time. If you always attack on the same SR, your swings are not always precisely 12 seconds apart, and therefore two people who "always" attack on SR5 do not always attack simultaneously.

 

Yes agreed. It even says so on p192 of RQG:

Quote

It is important to always keep in mind that strike ranks simply determine which attacks are resolved first in the melee round, and whether successive actions can
be attempted. Each strike rank does not represent

each second of the melee round.

...and regarding parries, p194 of RQG it says

Quote

A parry does not take any strike ranks, though subsequent parries become increasingly difficult (see Subsequent Parries, page 200).

Which for me seems like a fair, and colourful way of dealing with the increased difficulty of parrying multiple attackers/attacks. As SR's don't represent seconds then this seems a good way of modelling reactive parrys in a round, with diminished chances of success with each subsequent parry. Like you say it would be easy to factor in other restrictions if you wished depending on circumstance. Guess it depends on your style of play. 

Isn't the rule for simultaneous hits resolved by highest Dex or best Dex SR modifier? Other wise they both hit at the same time. 

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Clarification on what happens with two handed weapons, as opposed to a weapon in each hand, would also be useful. I assume its basically the same in that it counts as 2 weapons and you attack twice and parry as often as you need to with a penalty on 2nd and subsequent parries. (Which feels right to me as a HEMA/Re-enactor type). The primary advantage of a large two handed weapon is its great sr modifier and its primary disadvantage is that it's going to get a battering and you might prefer a shield to take that. Oh and you cant hide from missile weapons behind it. 

I also note that as written then you _should_ attack twice per round as not doing so is loosing that option. So shield bashing should be the norm.  With a metagaming head on. Also gives you more ticks. That seems a little off from personal experience where shield bashes are moderately common but not ubiquitous....(which is why the rule in the book that attacking with shield gives up the parry) .

Personally I feel that if you parry with a single handed weapon (including a shield) you cant attack with it that round. So if you want to shield bash for knockback then you cant parry with it. You might choose to parry with your main weapon instead or go all in with two attacks or no parrys. Parrying with both weapons equals full defensive mode and the first parry with each weapon is without penalty. Penalties are cumulative per hand. 

2 handed weapons I think should be treated as if they were 2 weapons :- You get to either Attack Twice or Attack AND Parry, subsequent parries at penalty OR you get two parries....an argument could be made for halving the penalty with a two but as a two handed weapon user IRL I'm biased (but watch a decent Great Sword or Quarter staff fighter in action!)

 

  

 

Edited by Thaz
Clarity

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On 1/27/2019 at 12:29 PM, Thaz said:

Clarification on what happens with two handed weapons, as opposed to a weapon in each hand, would also be useful. I assume its basically the same in that it counts as 2 weapons and you attack twice and parry as often as you need to with a penalty on 2nd and subsequent parries. (Which feels right to me as a HEMA/Re-enactor type). The primary advantage of a large two handed weapon is its great sr modifier and its primary disadvantage is that it's going to get a battering and you might prefer a shield to take that. Oh and you cant hide from missile weapons behind it. 

I also note that as written then you _should_ attack twice per round as not doing so is loosing that option. So shield bashing should be the norm.  With a metagaming head on. Also gives you more ticks. That seems a little off from personal experience where shield bashes are moderately common but not ubiquitous....(which is why the rule in the book that attacking with shield gives up the parry) .

 

I think the reason why 2 handed weapons are not mentioned is because they don't need a special treatment, and follow the normal rule of 1 attack unless you split your attack skill.

Don't forget that in order to attack twice while holding 2 weapons, you need to develop a skill with your off-hand weapon. Also, 2-handed weapons tend to deal more damage with each hit. Allowing 2-handed weapons to do so with only one skill would not be fair.

On 1/27/2019 at 12:29 PM, Thaz said:

Personally I feel that if you parry with a single handed weapon (including a shield) you cant attack with it that round. So if you want to shield bash for knockback then you cant parry with it. You might choose to parry with your main weapon instead or go all in with two attacks or no parrys. Parrying with both weapons equals full defensive mode and the first parry with each weapon is without penalty. Penalties are cumulative per hand.

I agree with this, and that was my first understanding of the rule on page 224. But I think RQG already makes off-hand and shield use too difficult to use and, as a result, favors 2-handed weapons.

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Yes agreed. Two-handed weapons don’t get an extra attack, they just come with a bit more damage.

RAW - if you attack with a shield you can’t parry with it in the same round. However this doesn’t apply to weapons, which can parry and attack in same round.

With two weapon fighting you can attack twice, and still parry a single attack once (and other attacks with culmaltive penalty)

But as always feel free to tweak to your tastes 

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