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Two weapons and multiple parries

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9 hours ago, Jason Durall said:

Subsequent parries get a -20% per attempt modifier, cumulative, regardless of which hand the weapon or shield you're using is in. 

Thanks Jason.

I’m a bit confused still. This reads like you’re talking about handiness, whether the weapon/shield is in the main hand or off hand.

The original question was different and was regarding the RQG rules on two weapon use. I wanted to know whether the cumulative parry penalty is applied to each weapon individually, or Is applied to both simultaneously regardless of which of the two weapons has already been used to parry? 

Edited by Paid a bod yn dwp

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On 7/2/2018 at 12:31 AM, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Thanks Jason.

I’m a bit confused still. This reads like you’re talking about handiness, whether the weapon/shield is in the main hand or off hand.

The original question was different and was regarding the RQG rules on two weapon use. I wanted to know whether the cumulative parry penalty is applied to each weapon individually, or Is applied to both simultaneously regardless of which of the two weapons has already been used to parry? 

It's -20% per subsequent parry, no matter what weapon or hand you're using. 

______

Parry 1: unmodified 

Parry 2: -20%, no matter what hand it's being done with 

Parry 3: -40%, no matter what hand it's being done with 

Parry 4: -60%,  no matter what hand it's being done with 

Parry 5: -80%,  no matter what hand it's being done with 

etc.  

 

 

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On 7/1/2018 at 5:51 PM, creativehum said:

I'm surprised by this as well... but it does seem to be what Jason is saying. But I'll be curious about any further clarification.

I can only assume that if one is parrying with two weapons, one can make two parries against the same attack -- the first at -0% mod, the second at -20% mod?

If not I can't figure out why anyone would ever parry with two weapons.

Ways you can lose a weapon: 

  • Damage to the arm 
  • Damage to the weapon 
  • Fumbles 
  • Being disarmed (we're doing a FAQ addressing that)

Reasons to use a shield instead of a weapon in your off hand: 

  • Arrows and other missile fire 
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21 minutes ago, Jason Durall said:

It's -20% per subsequent parry, no matter what weapon or hand you're using. 

______

Parry 1: unmodified 

Parry 2: -20%, no matter what hand it's being done with 

Parry 3: -40%, no matter what hand it's being done with 

etc.  

So basically a character who wants to go all defensive can use this series of parries after a similar series of dodges. Does dodging successfully save you a parry attempt?

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2 hours ago, Jason Durall said:

It's -20% per subsequent parry, no matter what weapon or hand you're using. 

 ______

Parry 1: unmodified 

Parry 2: -20%, no matter what hand it's being done with 

Parry 3: -40%, no matter what hand it's being done with 

Parry 4: -60%,  no matter what hand it's being done with 

 Parry 5: -80%,  no matter what hand it's being done with 

 etc.  

 

 

Thanks Jason.

That’s straight forward. Less fiddly book keeping that way, and still feels right. 

I think quite a few of us picked up that there was no text to clarify this in the two weapon section. A previous bit of text in RQG (p200 subsequent parries) had suggested that the modifier was *per weapon* used, not *regardless* of which weapon used.

Thanks for the clarification - and congrats on RQG it’s quite something 

Edited by Paid a bod yn dwp

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1 hour ago, Jason Durall said:

It's -20% per subsequent parry, no matter what weapon or hand you're using. 

______

Parry 1: unmodified 

Parry 2: -20%, no matter what hand it's being done with 

Parry 3: -40%, no matter what hand it's being done with 

Parry 4: -60%,  no matter what hand it's being done with 

Parry 5: -80%,  no matter what hand it's being done with 

etc.  

 

 

Well clear about what you intended.

That your intent for defensive actions is so inconsistent with two weapon use for offensive action will be more of a concern for others than me as I have no intention of playing it as you describe your intent. The inconsistency with 2 weapon offense is part of it, imposing a counter intuitive and counter experiential penalty on fighting defensively is also part of it.

But then my major disappointment with RQG is greatly increased wordage from RQ2 adds nothing, increases complexity and confusion and changes combat balance in a manner that detracts and is contra to my own (admittedly now decades old re-enactment experience). Again that is of limited effect as I will simply revert to RQ2 with a few mods to incorporate simpler versions of those changes I do find relevant.

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1 hour ago, Jason Durall said:

It's -20% per subsequent parry, no matter what weapon or hand you're using. 

______

Parry 1: unmodified 

Parry 2: -20%, no matter what hand it's being done with 

Parry 3: -40%, no matter what hand it's being done with 

Parry 4: -60%,  no matter what hand it's being done with 

Parry 5: -80%,  no matter what hand it's being done with 

etc.  

I'm very sorry to ask this again, but how does this rule interact with the rule on page 224-225 concerning the limits on the actions one can take while holding a weapon in each hand ?

Is the following interpretation correct ?

-You can attack once with each weapon, but you can't parry or dodge.

-You can attack once with one weapon and parry with the other weapon as many times as your skill allows it.

-You can parry with both weapons as many times as your skill allows it, but you can't attack.

And dodge can be used as a replacement for any parry attempt.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Mugen said:

I'm very sorry to ask this again, but how does this rule interact with the rule on page 224-225 concerning the limits on the actions one can take while holding a weapon in each hand ?

Is the following interpretation correct ?

-You can attack once with each weapon, but you can't parry or dodge.

-You can attack once with one weapon and parry with the other weapon as many times as your skill allows it.

-You can parry with both weapons as many times as your skill allows it, but you can't attack.

And dodge can be used as a replacement for any parry attempt.

 

 

Excuse me while I think aloud:

Heres the text from RQG again:

"Any adventurer using a weapon in each hand may use them for two attacks, two parries, or one attack and one parry." p224 Two Weapon Use.

With Two Weapon Fighting, you must choose between either two attacks or two parries (one of each with each weapon). This exception ruling is saying once you double up your attacks you must give up a parry option, and likewise once you double up your parries you must give up your attack option. Rightly or wrongly,  the ruling is there to say that there is price to be paid for the privilege of doubling up your attacks or parries.

However the standard option attack/parry option also remains. If you wish to parry  once & attack once,  you can ( and presumably its your choice whether you do this with just one of the weapons in hand, or use both).

So what are the advantages of using Two Parries In the Two Weapon fighting rule? 

With Two weapon fighting the advantages of attacking twice are obvious, however the advantage of parrying twice with two weapons is more ambiguous, as the cumulative - 20% penalty applies across both weapons,  and with a single weapon use you can already parry multiple attacks from different sources. So my thinking on the advantage's of parrying twice with two weapons is this:

  • If you loose use of a weapon through damage, limb loss, fumble, or disarm.  
  • The option of parrying the same single attack twice. This also means that two successful parries could potentially do greater damage to the attacking weapon. (This is a point that would be well mentioned IMO in the section on Two Weapon Fighting, as I find it makes much more sense of the ruling - unless @Jason Durall corrects this point otherwise) 

Regarding Dodge and Two Weapon Fighting, I can't see anything mentioned in the text to say that it's use is limited in the same way as parry is in Two Weapon Fighting. It seems to be just the actions with the actual weapons that are subject to the limitation - Though if it is intended to be limited then I think the text needs to say so explicitly.

 

So back To Mugen's questions, heres my take:

-You can attack once with each weapon, but you can't parry or dodge. Yes, although as written i'd say you can still dodge

-You can attack once with one weapon and parry with the other weapon as many times as your skill allows it. Yes 

-You can parry with both weapons as many times as your skill allows it, but you can't attack. Yes

And dodge can be used as a replacement for any parry attempt. Yes, and subject to the same cumulative -20% penalty. You could mix and match.

 

@Jason Durall Final clarification - Does the above sound Ok?

 

Edited by Paid a bod yn dwp

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8 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Excuse me while I think aloud:

  • The option of parrying the same single attack twice. This also means that two successful parries could potentially do greater damage to the attacking weapon. (This is a point that would be well mentioned IMO in the section on Two Weapon Fighting, as I find it makes much more sense of the ruling - unless @Jason Durall corrects this point otherwise) 

That is really unlikely. In all the years of RQ where this option has existed it has never been allowed. You have also never previously been able to parry and dodge the same attack. Note that I *think* in RQG you are not allowed to parry and dodge in the same melee round: the text on dodge refers to using it instead of parrying.

I do think the designers need to explain in informal English how this is all meant to work because i suspect that various bits of copy and paste when merging RQ3 dodge with RQ2 has caused some breakages.

For the record, taking the rules as written, it seems to me that the following is what happens.

Statement of intent. does not have to specify targets or actions or, basically, anything. e.g. from the rulebook "(“I’ll wait here for them to do something,and have my shield and sword at the ready if someone gets close” is enough detail). So a generic statement of intent would be: "I'll attack someone on my SR and parry the most dangerous looking opponent to attack me."

It *looks* like you can substitute dodge for any given parry but, per statement of intent, you don't need to be that specific until it happens. So you could replace "parry the most dangerous..." with "defend against the most dangerous...." if you want to be pedantic.  Note one important difference. Under subsequent dodges it refers to only being able to do subsequent dodges on subsequent SRs. This does not appear under parries. So you could parry multiple opponents on the same SR but not dodge them. (E.g. if two trollkin wait until SR12 to do headshots you can try to parry them both but only dodge one of them.) Because dodge replaces a parry you cannot parry and dodge the same attack. 

Really then statement of intent is for specifying things like aimed blows or casting a spell while in melee etc.

Two weapons. Per the rulebook two weapons does not refer to sword and shield and *probably* does not refer to sword and natural weapons (e.g. no sword and kick.) If using two weapons you can attack with both (giving up any defence), parry with both (giving up any attack) or attack with one and parry with the other. From the looks of it, you cannot attack and parry with the same weapon if you are using two weapons. (Technically that is the same with weapon and shield because if you attack with a shield you cannot parry with it.)

Now the rulebook never explicitly rules out (or in) using two weapons to parry the same attack. (Or even two different people parrying the same attack, see below.) So it is possible that @Paid a bod yn dwp is correct and this is an innovation in RQG. Likewise, if dodge replaces a parry and you can parry the same attack with different weapons then you can, theoretically, parry and dodge the same attack. (Can't do multiple dodges on the same SR though.) I think it's most likely that this isn't ruled out (or in) simply because the authors have been playing RQ for 35 years and this is the way it has always worked.

Other notable things

It looks like you can perform an unlimited number of subsequent parries each MR. "An adventurer may make a subsequent parry ...If the chance is reduced to 0% or below, the chance of success becomes the default 5% minimum chance of success." (This is different to traditional BRP where you can't make a subsequent parry if your chance is reduced to 0% or below.)

Look at the example of combat on page 206.

Joshfar, ... announces that he’s going to parry any attacks that come [Vasana's] way. The broo recognizes Joshfar as the greater threat, and decides to attack him first. Joshfar rolls a dismal 00 on his Medium Shield parry roll: a fumble!

Technically he does something not in his statement of intent but it doesn't seem to matter. i.e. statement of intents in RQG don't really need to specify targets etc. It's for this reason that I *think* the idea is that statement of intent is really only about what weapons you are using and if you are doing anything that might change your SR (like casting Bladesharp.) So a statement might be "i'll be attacking with my sword and defending with my shield" or "I'll be attacking with both my sword and my axe." Bear in mind that you can always substitute a dodge for a parry but not on the same SR you have already dodged or (presumably) parried. 

This reading may or may not be what the designers intended. It seems to be a hybrid of RQ2, RQ3 and BRP (multiple dodges/parries). 

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22 minutes ago, deleriad said:

Now the rulebook never explicitly rules out (or in) using two weapons to parry the same attack. (Or even two different people parrying the same attack, see below.) So it is possible that @Paid a bod yn dwp is correct and this is an innovation in RQG. Likewise, if dodge replaces a parry and you can parry the same attack with different weapons then you can, theoretically, parry and dodge the same attack. (Can't do multiple dodges on the same SR though.)

I think the rules are clear that you can't both parry and dodge the same attack, you have to choose one or the other.

"Dodge may be used to avoid an attack instead of attempting to parry." Dodge p201

I haven't come across anything specific in the text of RQG to say that with two weapon fighting you can't parry the same attack twice, and I've not seen that said in RQ2 either. For me it makes much more sense of the RQG ruling, and why you should give up your attack if you decide to parry twice using both weapons.

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37 minutes ago, deleriad said:

You have also never previously been able to parry and dodge the same attack.

Yes I agree. I was saying that you can ( in the same melee round) use parry and/or dodge multiple times, but not against the same attack. You could parry one attack then dodge the next, then parry a third. But there would be a cumulative - 20% penalty spread across both parries and dodges regardless of which defensive option you used. 

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7 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

I haven't come across anything specific in the text of RQG to say that with two weapon fighting you can't parry the same attack twice, and I've not seen that said in RQ2 either. For me it makes much more sense of the RQG ruling, and why you should give up your attack if you decide to parry twice using both weapons.

This is becoming a problem with the text for me... I'm spending time trying to read between the lines to justify the text. It is becoming too much work. The "two parries against the same attack" is the only reason I could think of for using two parries as a statement of intent. (Jason's reply to my question upthread lists great answers for why one would make sure to carry more than one weapon... not answer the question one would would give up an attack to parry twice if one is armed with two weapons.) 

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4 hours ago, Furry Fella said:

I will simply revert to RQ2 with a few mods to incorporate simpler versions of those changes I do find relevant.

Hi Furry, 

A couple of questions for you:

Can you talk to me which RQ2 rules you would be reverting to? (Combat? Magic? ...?) And which rules rules you'd be taking from HQG?

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8 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

I think the rules are clear that you can't both parry and dodge the same attack, you have to choose one or the other.

"Dodge may be used to avoid an attack instead of attempting to parry." Dodge p201

I haven't come across anything specific in the text of RQG to say that with two weapon fighting you can't parry the same attack twice, and I've not seen that said in RQ2 either. For me it makes much more sense of the RQG ruling, and why you should give up your attack if you decide to parry twice using both weapons.

Indeed it does say that.

Reading the rules as written:

If you are using two weapons and parrying with both of them then it is possible that you can parry the same attack with both of them. I highly doubt it because 40 years of precedence say that "no you can't" but I'm trying to the read the book as written. If you can parry the same attack with multiple weapons (it is quite cinematic to parry a blow with two swords for example) then ipso facto you can replace one of the parries with a dodge.* Again, I really doubt this is meant to be the case but I don't actually know.

The example of play shows someone planning to parry an attack against a friend and then parrying an attack against himself. The subsequent parry rule indicates that he could do both on the same SR if needed. This means for example you and your friend can parry attacks against each other and yourself using the subsequent parry/dodge rule. Again this is purely reading the rules as written. As a GM I would regard players actually doing this to be gaming the system and not allow it. 

*Only one because dodge specifies no subsequent dodges on the same SR. I would actually interpret the rules to say that you can't dodge on the same SR you parried but the rules only refer to not dodging twice on the same SR and are silent on, for example, whether you can dodge on the same SR that you have already parried on.

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6 hours ago, Jason Durall said:

It's -20% per subsequent parry, no matter what weapon or hand you're using. 

....

Ok, thank you for the clarification. I wasn't entirely sure what the intended effects were, which made the reading a bit tricky.

I think I'll go with that version of the rules at my table, with a couple of minor tweaks. The first being that if a character has two armaments in hand, you can choose which one absorbs the damage on a successful parry regardless of which skill was used. The second is that'll I'll have characters mark off experience checks for both armaments in hand so long as one of them makes a parry.

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My apologies if the language is vague or misleading. It seems the confusion revolves around two-weapon fighting. I don't have my printout handy so I can't give page refs. 

1. You can attack with multiple weapons multiple times in a round so long as you have the SRs.  

2. You can parry an attack only once, using one weapon. If you like, you can describe it as doing some funky X crossing your swords in a scissors or whatever, but basically it's one weapon parrying and one supporting the other. 

3. The cumulative parry modifier is agnostic to the weapon/hand you're using. We found in our playtesting that treating the modifiers separately was too fiddly ("Which hand is at what modifier now?"), that favored two-weapon fighting to the point where it seemed to defy the entire history of human melee combat, and that it de-emphasized the dangers of being overwhelmed by superior numbers in a fight. 

Does this clarify things? 

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Thanks for the clarification. The problem is this bullet point on page 224

  • Any adventurer using a weapon in each hand may use them for two attacks, two parries, or one attack and one parry.

The "two parries" bit is really confusing. Bearing in mind this doesn't apply to weapon+shield. Say I am fighting with shortsword and parrying dagger. If parry with one of them does that prevent me from using it to attack? If for example I parry one enemy with my shortsword then another with a dagger at -20% does that mean I have performed "two parries" and cannot now attack? That would be strange because, for example, using just a shortsword I can attack and parry with it as frequently as I wish but if I use a 2-weapon style I can't. 

The other thing that is opaque (to me at least) is the relationship between parry and dodge. In a standard melee situation in which I wish to attack and defend, if I state that I will parry does that prevent me from dodging and vice-versa? Or can I just switch between parrying and dodging as I see fit during a melee round? I think it's the latter though the former is more common in BRP. 

If parry and dodge can be interchanged freely does the dodge restriction that prevents you from dodging multiple attacks on the same SR also apply to combining dodging and parrying. E.g. if I parry someone at SR 7 then their big brother attacks also on SR 7 can I dodge that person (at -20)? What about in reverse - can I dodge then parry on the same SR? These are pedantic questions but one of the oldest tricks in the book in RQ3 was to delay an attack so that you and a friend could attack the same enemy on the same SR, so that only one could be parried.

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Thanks for the replies.

For me, at least, we are so close to me understanding what the rules are supposed to do.

A couple of more questions, based off this passage of your reply:

39 minutes ago, Jason Durall said:

2. You can parry an attack only once, using one weapon. If you like, you can describe it as doing some funky X crossing your swords in a scissors or whatever, but basically it's one weapon parrying and one supporting the other. 

If I understand the words above correctly:

  • When welding two weapons a weapon can be used to parry only once in a given round. Is this correct? This would be in contrast to parrying with a shield, which can be used for multiple parry attempts per round? Is this correct?
  • Out of curiosity, does the same limit of one-parry-per-round-per-weapon apply even if one is using a weapon and shield? That is, universally a weapon can only parry once in a given round, but a shield can be used multiple times? (I didn't think this was true... but I don't understand why one would be able to parry multiple times with a sword if holding a sword and shield, but only once with the sword if holding two swords.)
  • The reason one might parry with each weapon when armed with two weapons is that you might want to parry more than once. You can only parry twice in a given round if wielding two weapons, but if you need a second parry, you use the other weapon for the second (and final) parry for the round, and no attacks. Is this correct?

Thanks!

I cross-posted with deleriad, but this portion below goes after the part I am asking about. 

14 minutes ago, deleriad said:

That would be strange because, for example, using just a shortsword I can attack and parry with it as frequently as I wish but if I use a 2-weapon style I can't. 

Can someone parry each incoming attack with a sword if holding only that one sword, but parry only once with a given sword if wielding a sword in each hand?

Edited by creativehum

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15 minutes ago, creativehum said:

If I understand the words above correctly:

  • When welding two weapons a weapon can be used to parry only once in a given round. Is this correct? This would be in contrast to parrying with a shield, which can be used for multiple parry attempts per round? Is this correct?
  • Out of curiosity, does the same limit of one-parry-per-round-per-weapon apply even if one is using a weapon and shield? That is, universally a weapon can only parry one in a given round, but a shield can be used multiple times?
  • The reason one might parry with each weapon when armed with two weapons is that you might want to parry more than once. You can only parry twice in a given round if wielding two weapons, but if you need a second parry, you use the other weapon for the second (and final) parry for the round, and no attacks. Is this correct?

Thanks!

I cross-posted with deleriad, but this portion below goes after the part I am asking about. 

Can someone parry each incoming attack with a sword if holding only that one sword, but parry only once with a given sword if wielding a sword in each hand?

I think I see the confusion, and it's bad wording on the rule's part. 

  • You can parry as often as you are able to in a round, assuming you have a positive modified skill value. If your modified skill goes to or below 0%, you can't parry any more.
  • You can only attempt to parry a single attack once. You can't try to parry an attack with one weapon, fail, then try to parry the same attack again with your second weapon. 
  • The "one parry per round" should be per attack. You can parry multiple times in a round whether using 1H weapon and shield, 1H weapon and 1H weapon, or 1H or 2H weapon, hence the modifiers. 

 

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39 minutes ago, Jason Durall said:

2. You can parry an attack only once, using one weapon. If you like, you can describe it as doing some funky X crossing your swords in a scissors or whatever, but basically it's one weapon parrying and one supporting the other. 

Thanks Jason.

Ok - this corrects my previous understanding. So Two Weapon Fighting doesn't allow two parries against the same attack.  Thats clear now.

For me the only remaining problematic sticking point in all this is the wording on Two Weapon Use (p224) :

"Any adventurer using a weapon in each hand may use them for two attacks, two parries, or one attack and one parry. "

As you have clarified that with Two Weapon Use you can only attempt to parry a single attack once, it seems to make the text above redundant particularly in light of the RQG rules on subsequent parries. It really seems that it needs rewording. Here's my take (and questions) on that text  in light of your clarifications:

  • Two attacks ( Can you also still parry, as per the RQG rules on parry and subsequent parries? We've all presumed you can't because of the second point on two parries) 
  • Two Parries ( I presume this is in need of deleting?) 
  • One attack & one parry ( I presume this is correct)

Depending on your answer to the first bulette point on two attacks, it may be that all reference to parries should be deleted from that sentence entirely?

Finally: 

27 minutes ago, Jason Durall said:

If your modified skill goes to or below 0%, you can't parry any more.

on P200 Subsequent parries it clearly contradicts this

"If the chance is reduced to 0% or below, the chance of success becomes the default 5% minimum chance of success."

 

 

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28 minutes ago, Jason Durall said:

I think I see the confusion, and it's bad wording on the rule's part. 

  • You can parry as often as you are able to in a round, assuming you have a positive modified skill value. If your modified skill goes to or below 0%, you can't parry any more.
  • You can only attempt to parry a single attack once. You can't try to parry an attack with one weapon, fail, then try to parry the same attack again with your second weapon. 
  • The "one parry per round" should be per attack. You can parry multiple times in a round whether using 1H weapon and shield, 1H weapon and 1H weapon, or 1H or 2H weapon, hence the modifiers. 

 

Jason, great. Thanks so much.

Final, bonus round (for me, at least):

Why would anyone armed with two weapons choose to parry with both weapons?

I asked this question above, and you replied with a list of reasons that explain why someone would make sure to have more than one weapon or be trained to fight with more than one hand.

But the answer does not explain why one would ever give up an attack for a second parry since:

  • One can only parry any attack once
  • Each parry will incur a -20% mod

As far as I can tell, the mechanical effect in the game of a 1H-weapon-and-1H-weapon combatant parrying with one weapon (parry all attacks, accumulate -20% mods) is identical to parrying with only one weapon. 

In one case is he alternating weapons to parry at a -20% mod for each parry, and in the second he is only using one weapon at a -20% mod for each parry. In the first case is losing the chance to use his second weapon to attack, and in the second he gets to attack and is using his second weapon to parry. 

Leaving aside the difference skill %s that each hand might have, given the above is there any reason ever to commit both weapons to parrying rather than have one attack and one parry?

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Once again I cross-posted with someone else and came in second. But, again, Paid is going after the same question I am.

Also, I was going to make a separate post about this:

3 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

on P200 Subsequent parries it clearly contradicts this

"If the chance is reduced to 0% or below, the chance of success becomes the default 5% minimum chance of success."

I'm assuming the text in the book is correct? But maybe not!

 

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10 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

"Any adventurer using a weapon in each hand may use them for two attacks, two parries, or one attack and one parry. "

To me I think he is simply saying that if you use both weapons in parry mode, you can not use them in attack mode.  But you can then parry with each of them as much as you like with the -20% for each successive one.  Much the same as if you attack with one weapon, you can then parry with the other at -20% for each successive one, not just one parry and done.

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1 hour ago, Jason Durall said:

I think I see the confusion, and it's bad wording on the rule's part. 

  • You can parry as often as you are able to in a round, assuming you have a positive modified skill value. If your modified skill goes to or below 0%, you can't parry any more.
  • You can only attempt to parry a single attack once. You can't try to parry an attack with one weapon, fail, then try to parry the same attack again with your second weapon. 
  • The "one parry per round" should be per attack. You can parry multiple times in a round whether using 1H weapon and shield, 1H weapon and 1H weapon, or 1H or 2H weapon, hence the modifiers. 

 

That's that helps quite a bit.

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