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Two weapons and multiple parries

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Another thought on parrying a blow with two blades instead of one - what AP rating will be used in a parry with crossed blades (or bo sticks, or whatever)?

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3 hours ago, deleriad said:

Literally, and again I don't know if this is *meant* to be the case, attacking with a shield prevents you from parrying at all during that round. I presume it is meant to mean that you can't parry with the shield you're using for the attack but presumably can still parry with something else (and/or replace the parry with a dodge.) 

 

Wait.  I can attack with a weapon, and (with that same weapon) parry an open-ended number of times.

But if I smack someone with the edge of my shield, I can't parry with it?

That makes no sense at all.

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1 minute ago, styopa said:

Wait.  I can attack with a weapon, and (with that same weapon) parry an open-ended number of times.

But if I smack someone with the edge of my shield, I can't parry with it?

That makes no sense at all.

To be fair... at this time I'm not convinced I know what the rules are supposed to be.

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I strongly suspect that the rules for attacking with a shield are intended to be pretty much exactly the same as the rules for attacking with any other weapon. In that light, I suspect that the "giving up the chance of parrying that round" rule is another facet of the confused dual wielding rules that should have been cut or rephrased.

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18 minutes ago, styopa said:
3 hours ago, deleriad said:

 

Wait.  I can attack with a weapon, and (with that same weapon) parry an open-ended number of times.

But if I smack someone with the edge of my shield, I can't parry with it?

That makes no sense at all.

I buy into this rule on shields. For me it emphasises the bulk and reach or lack of. It’s a bit more of an awkward attacking weapon - Certainly less agile to use then a blade or spear anyway. In a gamest way this works for me. 

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2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Another thought on parrying a blow with two blades instead of one - what AP rating will be used in a parry with crossed blades (or bo sticks, or whatever)?

Jason has clarified that a two-weapon parry is narrative flourish only and you just use the stats and skill for one weapon.

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On 7/3/2018 at 6:41 PM, hanataka said:

 

Hi, Jason.

I am further confused by your answer.

p.224 Two Weapon Use:  Any adventurer using a weapon in each hand may use them for two attacks, two parries, or one attack and one parry.

In the old RQ2/RQ3 rule, this sentence meant the following.

  • If I use both weapons to attack, I can't parry that round.
  • If I use both weapons to parry, I can't attack that round.

Is this the same in RQG?   If so, what is the advantage of "two parries" option?

 

 

 

@Jason Durall Will it be possible to correct this sentence in RQG before it goes to print? After your clarifications it’s apprent  this is a mistaken carry over from the RQ2 rules.

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25 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

@Jason Durall Will it be possible to correct this sentence in RQG before it goes to print? After your clarifications it’s apprent  this is a mistaken carry over from the RQ2 rules.

It's on the boat. We'll have to clarify in future print runs and via a FAQ. 

 

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We've been talking it over, and are probably going to settle on an interpretation that is:

- if you're wielding a 1h weapon that you've declared an intent to attack with that round, any parry with that weapon starts at -20.  So an offhand weapon (as long as you haven't declared an intent to 2-attack) just buys you that first parry at 0 modifier.

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17 hours ago, Jason Durall said:

It's on the boat. We'll have to clarify in future print runs and via a FAQ. 

 

An on going FAQ for the rules would be fabulous.  Especially if it included examples.  Then it would be completely clear.

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I've been involved in a thread discussing this on RPGNet and this is my take on it.

I would re-phrase the two-weapon rule something like this:

When wielding a weapon in each hand, the Adventurer may choose to attack with each, parry with each, or attack with one and parry with the other.

This is barely even necessary, but helps clarify the 'why parry with both weapons' question, because the multiple parry rule already says that subsequent parries with the same weapon are at a cumulative -20. So the advantage of parrying with two weapons means your first two parries are at full chance, second two at -20 each, etc. Not a huge difference, but a difference, especially as you have two weapons your opponent needs to break to disarm you instead of just one.

Another way to think about it is that, in the parry with each weapons option, instead of attacking and parrying with one weapon you are transferring your full chance parry to the second weapon. Then you're turning your attack with your primary weapon into a new full-chance parry. Both those full-chance parry actions are then subject to the multiple parry with the same weapon rule.

What happens if you want to attack and parry with only one of the weapons? Then you're not wielding two weapons. Youre wielding one weapon and just holding the other.

I really don't see why people wielding one weapon need to have their parries nerfed, per Sytopa's suggestion. They're already at a moderate disadvantage anyway.

As for shields, they're just a funny shaped weapon, and normal subsequent parry rules and dual-wield rules should apply. I'd simply clarify this with a statement to that effect in the Parry rules section, and rephrase most (not all) of the rules that discuss fighting with weapon and shield to generalize them or drop them entirely. So the way you use a shield with your sword (or whatever), is via the two-weapon rule. All you need then is a separate special section of shield rules, to cover things like defence against missiles.

 

Edited by simonh
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On 7/4/2018 at 6:45 PM, styopa said:

Wait.  I can attack with a weapon, and (with that same weapon) parry an open-ended number of times.

But if I smack someone with the edge of my shield, I can't parry with it?

That makes no sense at all.

It depends on the situation. If you view a shield as just an off-hand weapon, then if you are also attacking with your primary weapon as well, yes you are giving up your shield parry. What you are doing is lashing out with your shield and sword at the same time, regardless of your opponent's threat, creating an opening for an undefended attack. The only question then is did your opponent effectively make use of that opening?

However if your are simply attacking and parrying with a shield (maybe your sword got broken), then I agree, you are just looking for openings to attack with your shield while maintaining defence. That should be no different from using any other weapon.

Edited by simonh
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1 hour ago, simonh said:

So the advantage of parrying with two weapons means your first two parries are at full chance, second two at -20 each, etc. Not a huge difference, but a difference, especially as you have two weapons your opponent needs to break to disarm you instead of just one.

If we're going by official implementation, Jason Durall has confirmed that all subsequent parries regardless of which weapon used suffer the  -20% cumulative penalty. Also if you swapped a dodge for the parry in a melee round the cumulative -20% would carry over regardless. 

On 7/3/2018 at 3:38 PM, Jason Durall said:

My apologies if the language is vague or misleading. It seems the confusion revolves around two-weapon fighting. I don't have my printout handy so I can't give page refs. 

1. You can attack with multiple weapons multiple times in a round so long as you have the SRs.  

2. You can parry an attack only once, using one weapon. If you like, you can describe it as doing some funky X crossing your swords in a scissors or whatever, but basically it's one weapon parrying and one supporting the other. 

3. The cumulative parry modifier is agnostic to the weapon/hand you're using. We found in our playtesting that treating the modifiers separately was too fiddly ("Which hand is at what modifier now?"), that favored two-weapon fighting to the point where it seemed to defy the entire history of human melee combat, and that it de-emphasized the dangers of being overwhelmed by superior numbers in a fight. 

Does this clarify things? 

 

Edited by Paid a bod yn dwp

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4 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

If we're going by official implementation, Jason Durall has confirmed that all subsequent parries regardless of which weapon used suffer the  -20% cumulative penalty. Also if you swapped a dodge for the parry in a melee round the cumulative -20% would carry over regardless. 

 

Ok, so the whole thing regarding wielding multiple weapons and on subsequent parries after the first needs completely rewriting then.

I await with bated breath, but I'll stick with my interpretation above for now as IMHO it's just what the rules say and therefore the path of least resistance.

This stuff is not easy. I've written some moves for dual-wield and two-handed weapon use for my Apocalypse World/Glorantha hack and balancing it is really awkward, even in a conceptually very simple system like that. See my Rune Hack post in the Inn, Grim Swordsman playbook. It took ages to figure out a way to make it work, and I'm still not sure about it.

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33 minutes ago, simonh said:

Ok, so the whole thing regarding wielding multiple weapons and on subsequent parries after the first needs completely rewriting then.

Yep - I believe it’s a mistaken carry over from RQ2. 

Good news ( for me at least) is it’s actually a more straightforward implementation. 

You can attack twice, and parry as normal.

I guess you have to designate which weapon you’re parrying with for damage purposes, and % chance

Edited by Paid a bod yn dwp

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Has Jason stated whether they intended to allow a parry after attacking with both weapons? I don't see why anyone would ever NOT attack with both weapons if you could just parry if you ever get swung at. 

 

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Has Jason stated whether they intended to allow a parry after attacking with both weapons? I don't see why anyone would ever NOT attack with both weapons if you could just parry if you ever get swung at. 

 

 

Well going back through Jasons answers he hasn't categorically stated either way on this, however he hasn't said there is a restriction if you make an attack with both weapons. Everything he's stated emphasis's an unrestricted use of parry per attack. Which I take to mean you can still have a parry option f you make two attacks with two weapon use.  

looking at the parry rules and subsequent parry rules, it feels like they are designed to avoid the kind of doubt that this thread has thrown up ( which is due to the accidental inclusion of RQ2 rule on p224 - Any adventurer using a weapon in each hand may use them for two attacks, two parries, or one attack and one parry.).

The new parry rules are more instinctive to use - you can always parry ( no need to think), but subsequent parries carry a cumulative  -20% no matter whether you're using one or two weapons.

See Jason's third bullet point below:

 

On 7/3/2018 at 4:23 PM, Jason Durall said:

I think I see the confusion, and it's bad wording on the rule's part. 

  • You can parry as often as you are able to in a round, assuming you have a positive modified skill value. If your modified skill goes to or below 0%, you can't parry any more.
  • You can only attempt to parry a single attack once. You can't try to parry an attack with one weapon, fail, then try to parry the same attack again with your second weapon. 
  • The "one parry per round" should be per attack. You can parry multiple times in a round whether using 1H weapon and shield, 1H weapon and 1H weapon, or 1H or 2H weapon, hence the modifiers. 

 

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Just to stir up muddy waters slightly more - if a dual wielder attacks twice, does this mean he used up his first, unpenalized parry, but can start parrying at -20%?

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1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Just to stir up muddy waters slightly more - if a dual wielder attacks twice, does this mean he used up his first, unpenalized parry, but can start parrying at -20%?

Everything I've gathered from Jason indicates that a parry with two weapon use, whether making one attack or two, is treated the same as a standard parry with 1 weapon. I think they err on the side of cutting out the fiddly bits :)

Edited by Paid a bod yn dwp

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18 hours ago, soltakss said:

Looks as though a lot of people will just houserule this, which is fine by me.

Heresy!

Gary Gygax will be turning in his grave, poor guy.

Edited by simonh

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I'm becoming increasingly aware that what seems pretty clear to Jeff and I is not so clear to players, and the rules text on two-weapon fighting should be corrected and revised for clarity. Here are the guidelines put as clearly as I can make them, in the form of a Q&A: 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Can I wield two weapons? 

Yes. 

Can I attack twice in a round? 

Yes, if the combination of SRs for both weapons allows it (12 or lower). You can attack once per weapon, not twice with the same weapon. 

What if I have 100%+ with one or both weapons? 

You can split those attacks, as normal, within the limits of SRs. 

Can I parry with either weapon? More than once per round? 

Yes, with a cumulative -20% per subsequent parry after the first. Doesn't matter which weapon or hand you do it with. 

Can I use Dodge along with my parries vs. melee weapons? 

Yes. Dodge attempts vs. melee should be counted along with parries, with the same cumulative modifiers.

What about Dodge vs. missile weapons?

If you are using Dodge against missile fire, it takes your entire action and you can do nothing but Dodge. You take the same penalties to subsequent Dodges as per parries. 

Why would anyone use a shield? 

You can't parry missile weapons with a hand weapon, though your GM may decide to let you try at some astronomically low chance of success. (Maybe a Martial Arts roll?) Shields are also more durable than most weapons, and offer passive defense, even when slung. You can also do mass combat formations with shields. 

If you choose to attempt a knockback attack with your shield, you attack on SR 12 and can't parry with it that round. 

Why would anyone use a two-handed weapon vs two weapons? 

Two-handed weapons  do more damage on average, have low SRs, have more HP, and are much more likely to penetrate armor. 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I hope that clarifies everything. For those who want more grit in the system, you can blame me. The subdivision of weapon skills into attack/parry and RH/LH is, to me, a overly crunchy level of detail that adds nothing to the facilitation of gameplay. 

By all means, if those are desired details, add them right back in. Your RuneQuest will vary. 👍

Edited by Jason Durall
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15 minutes ago, Jason Durall said:

Can I wield two weapons? 

Yes. 

Can I attack twice in a round? 

Yes, if the combination of SRs for both weapons allows it (12 or lower). You can also do this with a shield, with the same conditions. 

So just to be clear on this:
If I am wielding two weapons then I can attack twice in a round without needing to split my attacks and can still parry? OR

If I am wielding two weapons then I can attack twice in a round without needing to split my attacks but I cannot parry (or dodge) if I do this. 

I presume the latter.

I also presume that this refers to attacking with two different weapons. i.e. I cannot wield sword and parrying dagger then attack twice with a sword (unless splitting.)

Overriding the text in the rulebook, this is allowed with weapon and shield. Does this also apply to using natural weapons (e.g. kick and sword)?

According to the rulebook a shield attack occurs on SR12 and prevents you from parrying (either at all or with the shield, it is unclear but presumably the latter.) Does your email override that?

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