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Two weapons and multiple parries

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34 minutes ago, Jason Durall said:

I'm becoming increasingly aware that what seems pretty clear to Jeff and I is not so clear to players, and the rules text on two-weapon fighting should be corrected and revised for clarity. Here are the guidelines put as clearly as I can make them, in the form of a Q&A: 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Can I wield two weapons? 

Yes. 

Can I attack twice in a round? 

Yes, if the combination of SRs for both weapons allows it (12 or lower). You can also do this with a shield, with the same conditions. 

Can I parry with either weapon? More than once per round? 

Yes, with a cumulative -20% per subsequent parry after the first. Doesn't matter which weapon or hand you do it with. 

Can I use Dodge along with my parries vs. melee weapons? 

Yes. Dodge attempts vs. melee should be counted along with parries, with the same cumulative modifiers.

What about Dodge vs. missile weapons?

If you are using Dodge against missile fire, it takes your entire action and you can do nothing but Dodge. You take the same penalties to subsequent Dodges as per parries. 

Why would anyone use a shield? 

You can't parry missile weapons with a hand weapon, though your GM may decide to let you try at some astronomically low chance of success. (Maybe a Martial Arts roll?) Shields are also more durable than most weapons, and offer passive defense, even when slung. You can also do mass combat formations with shields. 

Why would anyone use a two-handed weapon vs two weapons? 

Two-handed weapons  do more damage on average, have more HP, and are much more likely to penetrate armor. 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I hope that clarifies everything. For those who want more grit in the system, you can blame me. The subdivision of weapon skills into attack/parry and RH/LH is, to me, a overly crunchy level of detail that adds nothing to the facilitation of gameplay. 

By all means, if those are desired details, add them right back in. Your RuneQuest will vary. 👍

Thanks Jason. I personally like this level of streamlining. That’s a helpful summary. 

Just one thing. I’m pretty sure I know the answer, but just as it’s been asked so many times I feel it should be addressed directly:

If you make two attacks in a melee round with the *two weapon use* rule can you still make a parry/Dodge as normal? 

Edited by Paid a bod yn dwp

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45 minutes ago, Jason Durall said:

Why would anyone use a shield? 

I can add from my RQG game:  they also help protect against chaotic creatures that explode upon death.

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Hi @Jason Durall Thanks for the above.

This might have been answered in a revised PDF, but I haven't downloaded yet.

If I'm wielding a weapon in each hand, can I attack and parry with that weapon in a given round? (Which I can do if I'm fighting with only one weapon.)

Or was the text in the first PDF correct that I must choose to either attack or parry with a given weapon if I have a weapon in each hand?

Thanks!

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20 hours ago, Jason Durall said:

If you choose to attack with your shield, you attack on SR 12 and can't parry with it that round. 

@Jason Durall For clarity in any future FAQ -  RQG only says a *knockback* attack with a shield is on SR 12. There’s no mention of standard shield attacks being delayed to SR 12. I presume a standard shield attack uses the shields SR to determine when it strikes?

The text does mention that you loose your option to parry if you attack with the shield. (P219 shield attacks), however there is still ambiguity as to whether this refers to just the shield or any other held weapon as well? Your statement above helps clarify this , making it apparent this is just the shield affected - I presume Dodge is still allowed if you make a shield attack? 

Edited by Paid a bod yn dwp

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32 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

I presume Dodge is still allowed if you make a shield attack? 

I presume not, since Dodge is an option in place of a parry, and if you can't parry you can't dodge? (I'm inferring and guessing here, but that's what I came up with.)

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11 minutes ago, creativehum said:

I presume not, since Dodge is an option in place of a parry, and if you can't parry you can't dodge? (I'm inferring and guessing here, but that's what I came up with.)

I’d assume not as parrying has to do with using a weapon or shield that you attacked with.  Dodge uses no weapons.  That’s how it works in my mind at least.

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12 minutes ago, creativehum said:

I presume not, since Dodge is an option in place of a parry, and if you can't parry you can't dodge? (I'm inferring and guessing here, but that's what I came up with.)

Yes needs clarification.

My feeling based off the wording of Jason’s post,  is that if you make an attack with a shield you can still parry with a weapon held in the other hand, and can also still dodge. But I do feel it needs further clarification from Jason 

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General Grievous (Star Wars) or Tars Tarkas (Princess of Mars) engages our intrepid Orlanthi champion in combat.  The non-human has four arms, each clutching a blade. Describe the battle in game mechanics terms per the previous discussion.  🤔

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35 minutes ago, seneschal said:

General Grievous (Star Wars) or Tars Tarkas (Princess of Mars) engages our intrepid Orlanthi champion in combat.  The non-human has four arms, each clutching a blade. Describe the battle in game mechanics terms per the previous discussion.  🤔

Our Orlanthi Champion rolls his eyes, calls upon the Storm King and blows his oppenents head off with a lighting bolt on SR 1.

Sorted.

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21 minutes ago, seneschal said:

Probably accurate, but anticlimactic 

The Gorakiki Beetle 'Transform Limbs' rune magic allowed the cultist to add an extra pair of limbs. These enabled you to attack with 4 weapons in a single round, with the second pair of limbs acting simultaneously with the first pair. I'd assume then, that Tars Tarkas would attack twice on (say) SR4 with right upper and right lower hands, and then twice again on (say) SR8 with left upper and left lower hands. Probably better to attack three times and save one sword for parrying duty unless he wants to rely on dodge.

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Ok, so, SR are used as a factor to determine how many attacks you can do in a turn, and the rule in page 224 is to be ignored.

But, how does it work exactly ? If both my left hand and right hand weapons have SR 6, can I attack at SR 6 with one, and SR 12 with the other ?

And what about splitting attacks ? As the second split attack occurs 3 SR after, I see 2 possible interactions :

-SR add together, and splitting attacks will make it impossible to use my second hand weapon to attack, as 6+3+6 = 15 (Edit : or unless my DEX and SIZ are so good my SR is 4 or less).

-Split attacks are seen as only one action, and the +3 SR is only a delay on the second attack. Therfore, I can do a split attack at SR 6, a second split attack at SR 9, and a normal attack at SR 12, with my other weapon.

And, finally : if my SR is low enough to attack twice, is there a reason for me to not do it ?

Edited by Mugen

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1 hour ago, Mugen said:

Ok, so, SR are used as a factor to determine how many attacks you can do in a turn, and the rule in page 224 is to be ignored.

But, how does it work exactly ? If both my left hand and right hand weapons have SR 6, can I attack at SR 6 with one, and SR 12 with the other ?

And what about splitting attacks ? As the second split attack occurs 3 SR after, I see 2 possible interactions :

-SR add together, and splitting attacks will make it impossible to use my second hand weapon to attack, as 6+3+6 = 15 (Edit : or unless my DEX and SIZ are so good my SR is 4 or less).

-Split attacks are seen as only one action, and the +3 SR is only a delay on the second attack. Therfore, I can do a split attack at SR 6, a second split attack at SR 9, and a normal attack at SR 12, with my other weapon.

And, finally : if my SR is low enough to attack twice, is there a reason for me to not do it ?

I'm not sure I understand your point about page 224. Why would you ignore it?

Yes, you would attack om SR6 with the right hand and then SR12 with the left. You could not split your attacks to gain any extra hits, as you have used all 12SR already. If you are big and fast enough to attack with a weapon on SR3, and you are 100%+ with that weapon in each hand, then you could make 4 attacks on SRs 3, 6 9 and 12. If you are only SR4 with the weapons then you split just one of the attacks and hit on SR4, 7 and 11 (or 4, 8 and 11 if you use the unsplit attack first). If you are SR5 or higher then you cannot attack more than twice in a round so, yes if you split one weapon you won't attack with the other.

You would not attack twice if you need to parry. You can afford to do without your parry if you know that you are not going to be attacked or if you are confident that your armour can take any damage you are likely to receive, but when I GM I only tend to see it when maxed out rune lords are taking on riff-raff. The berserk Zorak Zorani/Gorakikki deathlord with a two handed maul in each pair of hands doesn't tend to need to parry, even if the rules would allow him to. (and has everyone noticed that Berserk has been nerfed, and you now only get 150% attack except against chaos?)

Edited by Russ Massey

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17 minutes ago, Russ Massey said:

You would not attack twice if you need to parry. You can afford to do without your parry if you know that you are not going to be attacked or if you are confident that your armour can take any damage you are likely to receive, but when I GM I only tend to see it when maxed out rune lords are taking on riff-raff.

Pretty sure Jason has explained that in RQG you don’t have to give up your parry if you make two attacks. 

20 minutes ago, Russ Massey said:

I'm not sure I understand your point about page 224. Why would you ignore it?

Which is why the rule on p224 was mentioned. It talks about number of parries which is irrelevant to RQG as parries and subsequent parries are allowed with any combination of weapons now ( with the exception of a shield attack) .

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9 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Pretty sure Jason has explained that in RQG you don’t have to give up your parry if you make two attacks. 

Which is why the rule on p224 was mentioned. It talks about number of parries which is irrelevant to RQG as parries and subsequent parries are allowed with any combination of weapons now ( with the exception of a shield attack) .

Exactly my point.

That's a big change from previous RQ rules. Previously, you had to chose a position between all attack, all defense or a mix.

Now, the number of attacks will depend on your weapons SR, and the number of parries on your parrying weapon skill. You can chose to do less attacks, but that's just a waste of actions.

Edited by Mugen

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32 minutes ago, Mugen said:

Exactly my point.

That's a big change from previous RQ rules. Previously, you had to chose a position between all attack, all defense or a mix.

Now, the number of attacks will depend on your weapons SR, and the number of parries on your parrying weapon skill. You can chose to do less attacks, but that's just a waste of actions.

It's too big a change, and I won't be using it.

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I think that my take away from this headeache inducing (not in a negative way, just my age showing) is that my house ruling (if it rear its ugly head) will be that two weapon wielders can choose dual parry as an option and the effect will be that the first attack recived can be parried twice (ie rerolled, if the first ty fails) and subsequent parries have a -10% penalty instead of -20%.

(I think the FAQ is a bit to limiting, I want to give the dual wielder something without making it too overpwwered) 

The Gorakiki multiple condindrum would I rule as -5% in consecutive penalty....

In the group I used to GM it would never risen as they weren't combat focused, but in a future group I don't know I guess I should be prepared.

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22 hours ago, hanataka said:

Is there All-out Attack option?
Is there Fight Defensively options?

Good question. The way I see it in RQG is yes, but its approached from a different angle. You can have All-out Attacks and All-out defense options through:

  • Augments to combat through passions and runes
  • Using magic such as Berserk & fanaticism (is there an equivalent defensive spell?)

Alternatively it would be easy to house rule something like +20% to attack or parry if you focus solely on attack or parry, giving up the chance of the other. 

Edited by Paid a bod yn dwp

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I should also clarify that personally, I find strike ranks to be frustratingly inconsistent in execution, and my least favorite part of the entire BRP/RQ system.

Sometimes they're a means of ordering attacks by first to last, sometimes they're an action point allowance. Both work in entirely different fashions. 

My preference is for the simplicity of Stormbringer when it comes to determining who attacks when, and how often. 

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3 minutes ago, Jason Durall said:

I should also clarify that personally, I find strike ranks to be frustratingly inconsistent in execution, and my least favorite part of the entire BRP/RQ system.

Sometimes they're a means of ordering attacks by first to last, sometimes they're an action point allowance. Both work in entirely different fashions. 

My preference is for the simplicity of Stormbringer when it comes to determining who attacks when, and how often. 

Though i realise SR is such a big part of the identity of RQ , I'd rather have the simpler StormBringer implementation too. For me it would still have the things I regard as fun in RQ combat...but I can see why it was kept in. 

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20 hours ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

@Jason Durall For clarity in any future FAQ -  RQG only says a *knockback* attack with a shield is on SR 12. There’s no mention of standard shield attacks being delayed to SR 12. I presume a standard shield attack uses the shields SR to determine when it strikes?

The text does mention that you loose your option to parry if you attack with the shield. (P219 shield attacks), however there is still ambiguity as to whether this refers to just the shield or any other held weapon as well? Your statement above helps clarify this , making it apparent this is just the shield affected - I presume Dodge is still allowed if you make a shield attack? 

@Jason Durall Pretty sure this is the last clarification dredged up in this thread:

  • If I attack with a shield, can I still parry & attack with a weapon in the other hand, and also dodge? 
Edited by Paid a bod yn dwp

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