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How Much RuneQuest Do I Need to Know to Play RQG?


creativehum

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In other thread this exchange occurred:

On 6/2/2018 at 8:19 PM, styopa said:

OK I retract that.  

Peace 
3 Points
Ranged, Temporal, Nonstackable

This spell causes all persons not of Rune Master status within a 1-kilometer radius to lay down their weapons and forget all violence and war. For the duration of the spell, they prefer rather to listen to the wonders of peace and love which the spirits send ringing through their minds

 

That's ridiculous.  

 

On 6/2/2018 at 9:39 PM, metcalph said:

Also it's from Cults of Prax.

 

On 6/3/2018 at 8:31 AM, Psullie said:

And knowledge is limited to just two people, Most Respected Elder and High Priestess of the 3 Bean Circus

In RQ2 Rune Magic was severely restricted, some cults could only learn 1 or 2 point spells which helped limited some overpowering magic. I hope the future Gods supplement does something similar and make many of the more powerful magic limited,

Apparently the RQG text doesn't include the limits imposed on the use of this spell outlined in Cults of Prax.

Let's say my players and I have never read Cults of Prax. Should such limits apply? Are we supposed to read Cults of Prax to play RQG?

And more importantly, are there other details and ideas included in RQG that longtime players of RuneQuest or students of Glorantha would know how to handle well... that some of without such experience will simply be confounded the current rules or uncertain what to do with them?

"But Pendragon isn’t intended to be historical, just fun.
So have fun."

-- Greg Stafford

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38 minutes ago, simonh said:

Yes, it’s impossible to play RQG without Cults of Prax. Can’t be done.

I'm assuming this is some sort of attempt at cleverness? Snark? A pointed rejoinder to an honest question about how competently RQG was executed in both design and writing?

The basic package of RQG (printed) is going to be about, what, $175? 

So far, from what I've seen in how the text handled parrying (a fairly mundane and common activity in RQ play) the text of the game is already loaded with problems for anyone new to the game trying to sort out exactly how one is supposed to use the mechanics at hand.

It also seems clear (from the example above, which was only an example, which broadened out to a larger issue of how magic and other issues in general) the game does not in fact offer a comprehensive set of rules for play for a newcomer, but depends instead either on an institutional memory or other text published decades ago for a proper understanding and application of the rules.

Now, I'll be blunt: Your response makes you an ass. I asked an honest question that I think is worth asking, because either RQG delivers the goods on offering a solid rules set that one can read and play the game... or it does't. The example of the Peace spell above certainly seems to be a slip-up where a previous text put a limiter on a very powerful spell... and that limiter is missing from the text.

If you think I'm a fool for asking the question, fine. If you think I'm a fool for wondering whether to begin investing in the new RQG line, fine. But if so, just come out and say it. Don't hide behind cloudy snark.

And by the way, if anyone, from Chaosium or not, comes out and says, "Hey, its your game, these are only guidelines, do what you want!" Forget it. For a $55 book I'm expecting some thought and clarity to have been put into the game. For a game that needs about $175 or so for the four main components to get the game going, I'm expecting more than, "Good luck!"

Seriously, you can either offer help, or answer a question plainly, or say, "Really, Glorantha and RuneQuest are a little club, and we really don't want anyone new to show up. You really wouldn't understand."

But the asinine post above? Shove it.

Edited by creativehum
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"But Pendragon isn’t intended to be historical, just fun.
So have fun."

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37 minutes ago, creativehum said:

Let's say my players and I have never read Cults of Prax. Should such limits apply? Are we supposed to read Cults of Prax to play RQG?

YGWV - your Glorantha will vary. I expect the upcoming cults book to provide all the cult restrictions etc, so then you may decide how to deal with spells that shouldn't have been available to your characters. In case of doubt, the spell knowledge could always have come from Spell Trading, or from a special blessing by the deity.

 

Quote

And more importantly, are there other details and ideas included in RQG that longtime players of RuneQuest or students of Glorantha would know how to handle well... that some of without such experience will simply be confounded the current rules or uncertain what to do with them?

Play your game with the resources at hand. Your game doesn't have to be canonical.

If you think that an idea of yours might cause trouble later on, just ask folk with access to more material. Providing useful answers to concrete questions might cut down on snarks and ill-tempered replies.

Edited by Joerg

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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I think that nowadays considering that there's no notes on limitations in the rules it's just treated as a normal spell, not limited to those you mentioned in CoP. If, however, you feel it's too powerful you could easily tell your players that you're making it a restricted/rare spell. In short, you can play it as written but as always the gamemaster can do what he wills to keep the campaign running smoothly. I doubt newcomers to Glorantha would care either way (unless they're complete munchkins, in which case they should be looking to the sorcery chapter anyways).

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To answer the op - none.

Ignore the excessive navel-contemplation of Deep Gloranthan Esoterica that you see here.

AFAIK the game is fully playable as-is (ie you probably need really 2 books: the RQG rulebook that is out now, and the bestiary).

If you don't want to wait for the bestiary, Chaosium has in its wonderful free pdf section FANGS, which was a bunch of pre-rolled monsters for RQ2.

https://www.chaosium.com/content/FreePDFs/RuneQuest/Classic/CHA4002- FANGS - Monster Stats.pdf

There - you're ready to play.  

If there are later amendments or such that come in other books, include them or don't, up to you.

Yes, is there a risk of retcon if you adopt the structures later presented (say in the GM book or the Gods of Glorantha)?  Sure, but there's a lot LESS of the chance of retcon now that Jeff is pretty much the gnostic arbiter of One True Glorantha - better than the olden days where Greg was liable to 'discover' something without a great regard for what had been written before.

 

EDIT: curiously, shortening that url doesn't work, ie https://www.chaosium.com/content/FreePDFs/RuneQuest/Classic/ gives a "not found".  Which is sad, because it implies that there are other free RQ classic PDFs.  But if you look at https://www.chaosium.com/runequest-classic-pdfs/ ...no mention of anything free.  Maybe from someone @Chaosium could reply?

Edit 2: even the free pdf page...https://www.chaosium.com/free-downloads/  doesn't link to it, suggesting instead that it would be found on a page relevant to the subject (Classic or RQ2)...which it doesn't seem to be?

Edited by styopa
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1 hour ago, creativehum said:

Apparently the RQG text doesn't include the limits imposed on the use of this spell outlined in Cults of Prax.

Let's say my players and I have never read Cults of Prax. Should such limits apply? Are we supposed to read Cults of Prax to play RQG?

Are you supposed to read Cults of Prax? No, not required.  RQG is fine.

I have no issues with the rune spell of Peace is in RQG.  Why not?  It's available through an Associated Cult to High Priestesses of Eiritha and Ernalda.  That means you have to find a temple to one of those deities where a shrine to the Three Bean Circus exists to get the spell in the first place.  It's going to cost you 3 rune points to cast it by itself.  Yes, you can cast Extension with it.  So there's a point in the ground with a 1km radius around it which makes non-rune masters feel peaceful for x amount of time.  Works fine in my game.

1 hour ago, creativehum said:

are there other details and ideas included in RQG that longtime players of RuneQuest or students of Glorantha would know how to handle well... that some of without such experience will simply be confounded the current rules or uncertain what to do with them?

Not that I've particularly seen so far, but I do have long time experience with both.  But that's the purpose of forums such as these - you can ask questions if you're worried or concerned about them.  But back when I didn't have such immediately available and was running RQ3, I just followed the MGF principle - if you're the GM and it feels right, go with it (and if your players balk, work with them to figure out what works between them and you).

45 minutes ago, creativehum said:

the game does not in fact offer a comprehensive set of rules for play for a newcomer, but depends instead either on an institutional memory or other text published decades ago for a proper understanding and application of the rules.

On the whole, I disagree.  I ran the Quickstart just fine with what we had then.  RQG covers most of what you need except for the Bestiary (and there are samples from that already available).  I expect that the Gods of Glorantha book will be a valuable addition, but there's enough on the cults in RQG to get players underway with a lot of choices. 

My RQG campaign is branching out from some ideas from the point at which the Quickstart ends.  (Admittedly I'm drawing on concepts from other Sartar books because I have them available as GM, but with the short Homeland writeups in RQG and the pregen characters, my players have been able to get underway without issue.)

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Thanks for all the replies.

And a quick note about this:

4 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

On the whole, I disagree.  I ran the Quickstart just fine with what we had then.  RQG covers most of what you need except for the Bestiary (and there are samples from that already available).  I expect that the Gods of Glorantha book will be a valuable addition, but there's enough on the cults in RQG to get players underway with a lot of choices. 

Perfect. The passage you quoted from my second post should have been more of a question (which is how I phrased the matter in the original post). 

Again, I'm flying somewhat blind here. Still making my way through RQG while not having the foundation of any version of RQ beneath me, and an off-and-on dipping into Glorantha reading via HQ over the past decade.

I appreciate the answers.

"But Pendragon isn’t intended to be historical, just fun.
So have fun."

-- Greg Stafford

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1 hour ago, creativehum said:

So far, from what I've seen in how the text handled parrying (a fairly mundane and common activity in RQ play) the text of the game is already loaded with problems for anyone new to the game trying to sort out exactly how one is supposed to use the mechanics at hand.

I think at least in that case, it's the other way round. I don't have a lot experience with previous editions of RuneQuest (I played Cthulhu and Stormbringer and very little RQ3 back in the day, and a few sessions of Mythras and OpenQuest now and then, but I have no experience with RQ2 an Glorantha, which are the main reference point for RQG); and I find the parry rules perfectly easy to understand. The problems seems to be people coming at them with certain expectations from previous questions and also the notion that there should be a special incentive for using two weapons.

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1 hour ago, creativehum said:

Apparently the RQG text doesn't include the limits imposed on the use of this spell outlined in Cults of Prax.

Let's say my players and I have never read Cults of Prax. Should such limits apply? Are we supposed to read Cults of Prax to play RQG?

What this spell tells you is what it's like around the Paps and Agape. No fighting please, best behaviour or I (Most Respected Elder) stop you and send my Khans into deal with the rest of you. Great spell, does its job fantastically. Both places are ancient sacred centres - no violence here please .

You just need RQG which is what my players are using, As the GM Im using the bestiary for a few things - a centaur adventurer and the Praxian morokanth who are central to the game and adversaries. I could of just used my Classic RQ2 stuff, but I'm not going to lug that around . The GM pack is my most awaited physical thing as I want the GM screen as I'm assuming that it will be the same standard as the CoC 7ed one.

Gencon is coming and with that hard copies. If you need something not in the core book, use rq2 or skirt round it for a few weeks. RQ2 pdfs are cheap... 

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2 hours ago, Jakob said:

I don't have a lot experience with previous editions of RuneQuest (I played Cthulhu and Stormbringer and very little RQ3 back in the day, and a few sessions of Mythras and OpenQuest now and then, but I have no experience with RQ2 an Glorantha, which are the main reference point for RQG); and I find the parry rules perfectly easy to understand.

I found the rules easy to understand as well. And then a portion of the rules was clarified and I realized I was wrong. I'm glad you got it right away though. (Sincerely.)

Quote

The problems seems to be people coming at them with certain expectations from previous questions and also the notion that there should be a special incentive for using two weapons.

There is a whole separate thread for this... but I'll say here that neither of these possibilities hold true for me. 

On p. 197 we have this:

Quote

Weapon Use

Fist or fencepost, a weapon is any object used by an adventurer to do damage to a target. An adventurer may attack and parry with the same weapon in the same melee round.

On p. 224 we have this:

Quote

Two Weapon Use

The following conditions apply when an adventurer wishes to wield a separate weapon in each hand, other than a weapon and shield.

  • Any adventurer using a weapon in each hand may use them for two attacks,  two parries, or one attack and one parry.

The first passage says that a weapon can be used to both attack and parry. The second passage says that when fighting with a weapon in one hand, one must make a choice with each weapon to either attack or parry.

The two passage do not make sense together unless one is willing to assume that one is penalized for using two weapons and loses the ability to attack and parry with a given weapon.

I understand and assume this will be cleaned up soon (there are several layers of problems with the conflicting texts). I am only referring to what was in the book. Given the text above, the game grinds against itself. Not because of prior experience with RQ or expectations of incentives for using two handed weapons, but because of the actual writing in the actual book.

Edited by creativehum

"But Pendragon isn’t intended to be historical, just fun.
So have fun."

-- Greg Stafford

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4 hours ago, simonh said:

Yes, it’s impossible to play RQG without Cults of Prax. Can’t be done.

You aren't doing RuneQuest, Glorantha, or Chaosium any favors by responding this way.  I've noticed more than a little snark directed at newcomers on these forums.  If you really don't want to grow your base of players and do a good business, by all means, keep it up.

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Also:

Digging further into the text I found two mentions of the Peace spell on pages 292 and 293 which state

Quote

Three Bean Circus: This spirit cult provides Peace to High Priestesses.

This is the limiter found in RQ2. But it is also disconnected from the spell (found on p. 336), and nowhere does it say that one needs to be a Priestess to get the spell from the Three Bean Circus. I can see how one might infer that, especially with Cults of Prax in mind. And certainly I will read the section on Cults and the distribution of spells with this reading in mind. But I never would have made the connection that receiving Peace via the Three Bean Circus a limiter had I not read the another thread on this forum which discussed Peace in the context of Cults of Prax.

So, is the information in RQG? Kind of?

Is it as clear as I would like it to be? No. 

But I understand communicating all these nuances and details will be tricky. The key is that if I had read Cults of Prax I would be able to decode and infer the information as it was presented three decades ago in a snap.

I am curious what else might better arm newcomers in how to infer and decode some of the details that might not be readily apparent to newcomers trying to make sense of this material.

Edited by creativehum

"But Pendragon isn’t intended to be historical, just fun.
So have fun."

-- Greg Stafford

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21 minutes ago, creativehum said:

I am curious what else might better arm newcomers in how to infer and decode some of the details that might not be readily apparent to newcomers trying to make sense of this material.

Just dive in, so what if you miss some things or play it 'wrong' for a bit. I've been exploring Glorantha on and off for twenty years and still have lightbulb moments. Organise a game with your players and explore it 

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29 minutes ago, Psullie said:

Just dive in, so what if you miss some things or play it 'wrong' for a bit. I've been exploring Glorantha on and off for twenty years and still have lightbulb moments. Organise a game with your players and explore it 

Excellent advice. And I mean that, seriously.

But here is why I started the thread: 

RQG, as far as I can tell, is the best marriage so far of rules and Glorantha. When the rules and details are clear, I understand Glorantha better. Obviously I'll be building own Glorantha.

Keep in mind I posted a short essay online years ago about YGMV that Greg Stafford liked so much he asked to publish it elsewhere. So none of this is about getting Glorantha "right." It is about getting the baselines details, that I'm assuming have been sorted out slightly, at least, over the past 40 years. For example, no everyone casts Peace if they happen to have three points lying around. In the setting of Glorantha Peace is a big deal, distributed to only a few, and only a few from a specific subcult. I might be wrong, but I consider that a big deal.

Now I could change that, give it out in other ways. But knowing that some magic is really narrow and specific in distribution is a thing that matters (at least I think it is ) and tells me a lot about the world, about magic, and about Glorantha.

Hence, my questions.

Edited by creativehum

"But Pendragon isn’t intended to be historical, just fun.
So have fun."

-- Greg Stafford

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I think the original question was perfectly fair and reasonable, but the responses along the lines of "just dive in and explore at your own pace" are pretty reasonable too.  Glorantha is and always has been a complex place, and always has been revealed to us in bits and pieces, often completely overturning what we thought we knew.

For example, my first exposure to Glorantha was ca. 1981.  We had the RQ2 rules and Cults of Prax, and that was it.  We had heard of the boardgame White Bear & Red Moon but we'd never seen a copy.  The version of Glorantha that we played back then was ... kinda vague.  Players had Mistress Race troll characters and Dragonewt characters and why not?  No-one knew any different.  Trolls were just big ugly primitives until Trollpak came along a couple of years later and made us realise just how wrong we were.  We just took it on board and adjusted our game to suit the new material.

Now, that doesn't really excuse the new rules from mistakes and omissions, but I think the more obscure stuff you can just roll with and make up your own mind about, while the less-obscure puzzles (like the nonsensical parrying discussion) is just mechanical stuff and will get sorted out, one way or another, fairly quickly.

All of that being said: I think any GM interested in exploring Glorantha would be well-served by investing in whatever out of print material he can lay his hands on (just keeping in mind the original publication date as a context for how "correct" the information is); and for solutions to mechanical questions, get hold of a copy of the RQ3 Deluxe rules and do a contrast-and-compare.  Mechanically the RQ3 rules were a vast improvement over the RQ2 rules in pretty much every respect that's important and IMO abandoning most of that is one of the more serious flaws in the RQG rules.  (Wherever you still have questions ... just house-rule it.  The core BRP system is logical enough that mechanical answers are easy enough to come up with on your own.)

 

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2 hours ago, creativehum said:

But it is also disconnected from the spell (found on p. 336), and nowhere does it say that one needs to be a Priestess to get the spell from the Three Bean Circus. I can see how one might infer that, especially with Cults of Prax in mind. And certainly I will read the section on Cults and the distribution of spells with this reading in mind. But I never would have made the connection that receiving Peace via the Three Bean Circus a limiter had I not read the another thread on this forum which discussed Peace in the context of Cults of Prax.

True, if you just come at it from the point of view of reading the list of rune spells, then there is no particular limitation (other than the requirement of the Harmony rune to cast).  But I think there is a reason why the Rune Cults come before the Rune spells as highlights that certain Rune spells only come from certain cults.

2 hours ago, creativehum said:

The two passage do not make sense together unless one is willing to assume that one is penalized for using two weapons and loses the ability to attack and parry with a given weapon.

As we've seen from the other threads, I don't think there is an argument here that those inconsistencies exist.  

1 hour ago, creativehum said:

For example, no everyone casts Peace if they happen to have three points lying around. In the setting of Glorantha Peace is a big deal, distributed to only a few, and only a few from a specific subcult. I might be wrong, but I consider that a big deal.

Or, your players' characters venture into the Wastes, find and join the Three Bean Circus and begin their great quest to bring Peace to all Glorantha - an epic in itself!  They are the ones who bring about the Fireseason of Love, etc. 🙂

2 hours ago, creativehum said:

The key is that if I had read Cults of Prax I would be able to decode and infer the information as it was presented three decades ago in a snap.

Without pulling out Cults of Prax, I wouldn't have been able to tell you there was any difference.  And even then, I probably would not have thought there was any change in limiting factor (i.e. named high priestesses vs. unnamed high priestesses).  The salient points are these:  it's available to the high priestesses of Ernalda and Eiritha (clearly spelled out in the Rune cult chapter of RQG) and it's available via an Associated Cult in both cases (the Three Bean Circus - also noted clearly).  And RQG spells out what it means for a spell to come from an Associated Cult:  "they can select a Rune spell from an associated cult worshiped at that temple instead of selecting a Rune spell from their main cult or subcult. The associated cult must be one worshiped at that temple."  Which leaves it up to the GM to decide if/where it is available.

2 hours ago, creativehum said:

So, is the information in RQG? Kind of?

Is it as clear as I would like it to be? No

Overall, I think the team has done a good job in ensuring that the information you need is in RQG and does not require referencing any prior work.  I've not found I need to do any referencing of older RQ version texts.

I'd note that my experience with rule books is that you're never going to understand all the nuances on one or two (or three...) reads.  It doesn't mean you need to go back to other texts.  It may mean you need to get clarifications where some bit isn't as clear as it could be.  If you've had the benefit of prior editions without much substantive change (e.g. Call of Cthulhu), then most of those bits will have been fully worked out.  Overall, compared to what I remember when getting started with either RQ2 (which really was pretty bare bones and needed supplements) or RQ3 (where I really did have to rely on Cults of Prax, Griffin Mountain, and other earlier texts to help complete the Glorantha picture), RQG can stand well on its own as a rule system and as a source for getting started in Glorantha.

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1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

I'd note that my experience with rule books is that you're never going to understand all the nuances on one or two (or three...) reads.  It doesn't mean you need to go back to other texts.  It may mean you need to get clarifications where some bit isn't as clear as it could be.  If you've had the benefit of prior editions without much substantive change (e.g. Call of Cthulhu), then most of those bits will have been fully worked out.  Overall, compared to what I remember when getting started with either RQ2 (which really was pretty bare bones and needed supplements) or RQ3 (where I really did have to rely on Cults of Prax, Griffin Mountain, and other earlier texts to help complete the Glorantha picture), RQG can stand well on its own as a rule system and as a source for getting started in Glorantha.

This is an excellent thing to hear. Thanks!

and edited to add: I think a hard copy to flip through and reference with "space" will make understanding how all the pieces fit together easier for me.

Edited by creativehum

"But Pendragon isn’t intended to be historical, just fun.
So have fun."

-- Greg Stafford

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46 minutes ago, creativehum said:

I think a hard copy to flip through and reference with "space" will make understanding how all the pieces fit together easier for me.

A nice GM's reference sheet will be a big help.  I'm constantly having to scroll between the Resolution table, the Attack vs. Parry table (which is quite handy), the Damage summaries, the Weapon summaries, and occasionally the Attack vs. Dodge table.

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16 hours ago, creativehum said:

On p. 224 we have this:

Quote

Two Weapon Use

The following conditions apply when an adventurer wishes to wield a separate weapon in each hand, other than a weapon and shield.

  •  Any adventurer using a weapon in each hand may use them for two attacks,  two parries, or one attack and one parry.

Yes we were talking about this on the other thread. That sentence refers to the old RQ2 rules and should be ignored. It’s the only serious rules mistake I’ve come across, though I haven’t read the whole book yet. It has led to a lot of confusion though -  It just needs to state you can make two attacks. Parry is the same as for 1 weapon use. 

Edit: Once that sentence is removed, i believe a lot of the confusion fades away. There was a lot of back & fore on the other thread which probably didn't help your understanding, as we all voiced opinions and interpretations trying to justify a sentence that shouldn't have been there. Thanks to @Jason Durall for clearing that up for us. 

Edited by Paid a bod yn dwp
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Note that the big limitation on having Peace is being a high priestess of Ernalda or Eiritha. The book clearly spells out what a "high priestess" means, and it's very much a late-game, high power sort of position, where a spell like Peace is entirely in keeping.

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Well done SimonH for offering a decent apology.  That took real character in my view.

Creativehum, I played a lot of Rune Quest back in the 1980's, and it is amazing how much memory I still retain as I wade through the dense text of RQG.  But at times I am still bedazzled by the sheer volume of detail that there is to master as I prepare myself and my players for their first session of RQG (after a recent disappointing experience with RQ6 which I will not dwell on).  But the best advice I can give is at first to focus your thoughts and reading on the handful of Gods that your players choose for their initial cults.  Make their initial primary foe come from one cult that most of your players are hostile or neutral with. And then as you gradually introduce opponents with new cult affiliations, you can read and digest each new cult and its associated suite of rune spells one at a time.  Similarly start off with a small set of foes/opponents/protagonists with similar armour/equipment/weapon styles - use them for a linked set of 3 or 4 introductory sessions but then start to add in one new type of foe/opponent/protagonist each session if you can.  Also try to make three or four particular but different skills the key to each session, read them with care and thought, and then expand those key skills for each adventure as you go along from session to session. 

In this way, if you use each session as a progressive set of learning blocks, in no time you will start to acquire something close to an intuitive feel for an increasing pool of cults and combat styles as you work your way through.  There is a real risk of information overload just with RQG as is,  even before considering the in-print background material that you can still download/acquire in hard copy.  So do not be overly ambitious in your first half dozen or so sessions and you will then find everything clicking a bit quicker, and the world of Glorantha and Dragon Pass coming into sharper focus.  Information overload is your greatest enemy.  Learn Glorantha and RQG via small bites.  Do not get too hung up on particular rules mechanisms, we all have our own set of preconceived ideas about weapon styles etc - if the RAW still irritate you, then change them or discuss them with your players out of session to find out what you and most of your players enjoy.

Hope this helps.  I am now going to have to work hard to try and follow my own advice in my game and not just act like the fat-lad locked in the lolly-shop...

 

cheers

Mark

Edited by Cawdorthane
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I've introduced RQ with a quick demo combat, a couple of stick-picker farmboys tracking down and dealing with a wolf (or a bear if they're long used to playing d&d).

The goal is to kill/cripple at least one (or both, for long time d&d players), to illustrate the mechanics...and also how very much more deadly RQ combat is.  Then we make their real characters to play.

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Hi Creativehum,

It is also worth noting that having nearly 40 years of various rules kicking about in your head sometimes makes you interpret things incorrectly, as you graft on how you think things should work rather than actually reading the rules!

I am absolutely sure that the designers intend RQG to stand firmly on its own (once the odd correction and clarification is made).

S. 

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