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jeffjerwin

Donandar. Comments appreciated.

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I'm trying to throw together Donandar for the new rules.

 

This is my current draft:

 

Donandar, God of Music                   Illusion, Harmony, Movement

 

Holy Days

Waterday, Illusion week, Sea Season

Fireday, Illusion week, Fire Season

Clayday, Illusion week, Earth Season

Freezeday, Illusion week, Dark season

High Holy Day: Windsday, Harmony week, Storm season

[See Cults Compendium, p.232]

 

Initiate Membership

Requirements Standard

            Cult Skills Act, Charm, Cult Lore (Donandar), Dance, Disguise, Dodge, Insight, Orate, Play Instrument, Sing, Worship (Donandar)

            Favored PassionsLove (any), Loyalty (troupe)

            Spirit Magic n/a

 

Rune Magic

Common Rune Magic Command Cult Spirit, Extension, Find Enemy, Multispell, Sanctify, Warding

            Special Rune Magic Charisma, Group Laughter, Harmonize, Illusory Motion, Illusory Sight, Illusory Sound, Invisibility, Switch Places [see Cults Compendium]

            Enchantments Binding Enchantment

 

Rune Priest 

RequirementsThe candidate must have 90% skill in two of the following skills: Act, Dance, Play Instrument, Sing, or Sleight. Must lead a troupe (troop).

 

Associated/Friendly Cults (spirit magic only, except Eurmal)

            Chalana Arroy provides Heal (spirit magic)

Ernalda provides Heal (spirit magic)

            Eurmal provides Clever Tongue or Become [other shape] at appropriate shrines. Befuddle or Glamour is taught at any shrine.

            Heler provides Shimmer

            Kyger Litor and her son the drumming god provide Demoralize

            Orlanth provides Bladesharp (or Mobility?)

            Issaries provides Detect Enemies (spirit magic)

Yelm provides Coordination

 

Comments I’ve substituted in a few things like Spirit Magic that are absent in the CC write-up. As a god of music and dance, Donandar has a natural affinity to the performative aspects of shamanism, and the god’s half-brothers are probably best defined as greater spirits, if not Donandar himself.

Edited by jeffjerwin
corrections, edits, suggestions
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I’m always hesitant of giving anyone one but Chalana Arroy sleep

You might want to check your common rune magic list.  Some you list are not.  Just move them down into cult rune spells.  It certainly makes sense they have it.  And no Extension in common?

Edited by Skovari
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9 minutes ago, Skovari said:

I’m always hesitant of giving anyone one but Chalana Arroy sleep

You might want to check your common rune magic list.  Some you list are not.  Just move them down into cult rune spells.  It certainly makes sense they have it.  And no Extension in common?

I've made some corrections... thank you

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Gods of Glorantha said about Donandar that no spirit magic or sorcery is forbidden but the cult teaches none itself.

 

I don't think it should teach Charisma (which isn't just appearance in RQG) or Group Laughter.  You already have Illusory Sight and Illusory Sound so that can be used to provide an improved appearance or canned laughter for the audience.  I doubt that Invisibility would be known even though it is useful.  Donandar isn't a thief.  The same goes for Invigoriate - Donandar doesn't have earth or Life Rune magics.

Peace is not a Chalana Arroy Rune Magic but an Eirithan one (and only known through the Three Bean Circus) .  Secondly you need to think through the associate cults list.  Chalana Arroy, Heler, Kyger Litor, Maran Gor, Orlanth and Issaries have next to no mythoc relationship with Donandar even though they provide rune spells that might be useful.  If that were the case every war god would have reusable sever spirit.

 

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55 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Gods of Glorantha said about Donandar that no spirit magic or sorcery is forbidden but the cult teaches none itself.

 

I don't think it should teach Charisma (which isn't just appearance in RQG) or Group Laughter.  You already have Illusory Sight and Illusory Sound so that can be used to provide an improved appearance or canned laughter for the audience.  I doubt that Invisibility would be known even though it is useful.  Donandar isn't a thief.  The same goes for Invigoriate - Donandar doesn't have earth or Life Rune magics.

Peace is not a Chalana Arroy Rune Magic but an Eirithan one (and only known through the Three Bean Circus) .  Secondly you need to think through the associate cults list.  Chalana Arroy, Heler, Kyger Litor, Maran Gor, Orlanth and Issaries have next to no mythoc relationship with Donandar even though they provide rune spells that might be useful.  If that were the case every war god would have reusable sever spirit.

 

Kyger Litor, Chalana Arroy, and Orlanth all have direct (and positive) connections to Donandar according to the description in CC. Maran Gor uses dancing in her worship, so that was a bit more of a stretch.

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Deleting Peace... and Invigorate. Considering the others.

Invisibility I'm keeping for now as Donandar is also the god of stage magic/sleight of hand (and turning, I think, puppeteers invisible), according to my reading.

Keep in mind that priests are very rare.

Edited by jeffjerwin
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Specifically, the connection to Orlanth is through Drogarsi (war dancer and poet), a brother/subcult; to Kyger Litor through Molamin (who appears to be an 'elegant' singing subculture), and to Chalana Arroy through Donandar directly distracting chaos things while she healed Dogarsi. 'Skovari' is described as the 'earthy and moving dancer' who is connected to the 'common people' - I read this as perhaps connecting directly to the Earth cults' folk dancing (the goose dance, for example).

 

 Cults Compendium, pp.231-4.

 

Drogarsi of course is critical in the creation of Orlanth's Ring.

Edited by jeffjerwin
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If I were to expand the associated cult list I'd probably bring in some Pelorian or Ralian gods since the cult is found there as well - and the Manirian and Kerofinelan gods may not be so common. Or perhaps I should down-grade some others to spirit magic provisioning.

What we do know based on the puppeteer troop is they also were able to travel in Dragon Pass even after the fall of the EWF and retain mystic secrets. They also seem to have good relations with trolls, but also with other non-humans. They hang out in haunted and dangerous places.

13th Age says : "Minor god who was formerly in the Puppeteer Troupe but left to try to find a way to deal with Chaos. He’s a bardic god and the god of entertainers." It also says "Eurmal"! was a founding member. Both the House of Sartar and the Red Emperor patronize the troop/troupe... (!)

Further reading on the troupe in the 13th Age book indicates they can do teleportation, invisibility, steal powers (thief!) from people, cause laughter, confuse, distract with banter, and deflect damage onto their opponents' friends.

However the Glorantha Sourcebook makes it clear the troop/troupe worships Donandar still.... So perhaps I should develop this further as a hero band.

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38 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

Kyger Litor, Chalana Arroy, and Orlanth all have direct (and positive) connections to Donandar according to the description in CC. Maran Gor uses dancing in her worship, so that was a bit more of a stretch.

Yet these positive connections do not show up in the associated cults list.  Which suggests that the myths were bollocks to begin with.

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Now, of course in the Celestial/Light/Sky pantheon they have their own dance goddess, Silonia, who was the mistress of Polaris/Rigsdal. [B of Heortling Mythology].

And of course nearly every Ernaldan ritual is accompanied by dance. Ernalda of course according to the CC learned this magic from Donandar...

In Pelanda the dance god is Vanolti, 'an aspect of Idovanus', the supreme god of Carmania.

 

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39 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

Invisibility I'm keeping for now as Donandar is also the god of stage magic/sleight of hand (and turning, I think, puppeteers invisible), according to my reading.

There's a major difference between being off-stage (which is what the puppeteers are) and being invisible.  Harmonize is the spell for acting unseen I would have thought.

39 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

Keep in mind that priests are very rare.

That doesn't make much difference in RQG.  Any initiate can cast these magics and get them back through worship.

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1 minute ago, metcalph said:

Yet these positive connections do not show up in the associated cults list.  Which suggests that the myths were bollocks to begin with.

The original article was co-authored by Greg Stafford and Sandy Peterson (White Wolf #18, 1989)

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14 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

If I were to expand the associated cult list I'd probably bring in some Pelorian or Ralian gods since the cult is found there as well - and the Manirian and Kerofinelan gods may not be so common. Or perhaps I should down-grade some others to spirit magic provisioning.

You really have to decide whether you are implementing the cult of the Puppeteer Troupe or Donander who is more restricted.

According to the Sartar Companion p165-166, the Troupe worships the following gods

Donandar, Entertainment
Hahahoho, Laughter
De, Imagination
Vi, Expression
Is, Music

14 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

Further reading on the troupe in the 13th Age book indicates they can do teleportation, invisibility, steal powers (thief!) from people, cause laughter, confuse, distract with banter, and deflect damage onto their opponents' friends.

Teleportation is create illusion and switch places with that illusion.  The troupe may be capable of stealing but I have yet to see Donandar do that.  

 

 

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The associated cults listed in the CC article are Ernalda, Yelm (!), and Orlanth. On p. 232 Kyger Litor offers him "eternal friendship"

This is of course an Illusion god so any "truth-seeking" is at least partly a fool's errand...

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4 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

The original article was co-authored by Greg Stafford and Sandy Peterson (White Wolf #18, 1989)

You mean to tell me that a cult of entertainers should have myths that are absolutely true?  Or perhaps that is what they tell others to make them feel better?

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I'm basically creating a member of the Troop for my game, so I probably should examine whether I should write this up as a hero band with allied wyters and spirits. Eurmal is one of the Troop's gods, as well...

De, Ve, and Is seem like mystic entities (they sound even a little Draconic).

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Just now, jeffjerwin said:

The associated cults listed in the CC article are Ernalda, Yelm (!), and Orlanth. On p. 232 Kyger Litor offers him "eternal friendship"

None of whom provide any rune-spells according to the writeup.  I can see that Eurmal should provide such magics, I fail to see why Chalana and the others should.  Ernalda teaches Heal (spirit magic) and Orlanth teaches Bladesharp. Yelm teaches co-ordination.  That's a great deal of difference from the major rune magics you were suggesting.

 

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2 minutes ago, metcalph said:

You mean to tell me that a cult of entertainers should have myths that are absolutely true?  Or perhaps that is what they tell others to make them feel better?

Nah. I may be that the Troop has a myth justifying why they are sacred and friends with everyone except actual Chaos. But if they are also Illuminated Mystics, that may be true, in a practical sense.

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Just now, metcalph said:

None of whom provide any rune-spells according to the writeup.  I can see that Eurmal should provide such magics, I fail to see why Chalana and the others should.  Ernalda teaches Heal (spirit magic) and Orlanth teaches Bladesharp. Yelm teaches co-ordination.  That's a great deal of difference from the major rune magics you were suggesting.

 

The problem is what use is Bladesharp to an entertainer? If Drogarsi is a war-dancer, maybe Mobility would make more sense?

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I'll take a look at substituting some spirit magic spells - though RQG is a fair share freer with rune magics to friendly cults than RQ2 was.

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All in all, Donandar reads, on reflection, as a sane Eurmal. The main difference between the two is that he has Harmony and Eurmal has Disorder, yet they seemingly get along. I wonder...

In Dragon Pass (the boardgame), the Troop has the stats 2-4-4-8, which makes them quite powerful - their range factor is better than most of the Sartar Magical Union, and equal to the dragonewt magical units.

I had overlooked the material in HeroWars... (which is of uncertain canonicity, but is certainly more integrated into Glorantha than the older write-up)

In HW, Donandar magic is focused on "entrancement" and "entertaining music", and the sub cults are Drogarsi (skald, dancer, battle singer), Molamin (a Dara Happan god - teaches Harmonize and Coordination magic), and Skovara-Skovari (puppeteering, laughter). This would mean that the Troop relies mostly on Molamin and Skovara/i for practical rune magic. The illusion magic and switching-places magic is clearly therefore a secret of the Troop wyter or mystic tradition, not a conventional divine source. I may have to rebuild this tradition from scratch.

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OK. Here's what I've observed... the Donandar cult from 1989 is not terribly useful for PCs and doesn't replicate the abilities of the Puppeteers, who worship other gods (as we know from later material). It however did include scaled-down versions of the PT's magic from the board game. The cult was given a set of mythic associations only exceeded by the Lightbringers in terms of unlikely friends.

In Dragon Pass, the PT was one of the more effective magical units. Its ranged and teleportation abilities were remarkable.

In HW, Donandar became a god of rhythm and music worshipped by both Heortlings and Pelorians. His magic was even more limited, but the sub cults were a bit more practical for entertainers than the limited magic of the 1989 write-up. The Esrolian/Heortling Skovari/a cult seems to have strong links to the Troop, but their teleportation and harmonise magics actually derive from Dara Happa.

In 13A in G the PT becomes a potent magical force, nearly untouchable, though they don't actually do physical damage - they can steal magic and even alter memories. They are explicitly linked to Eurmal.

In RQG Donandar is briefly mentioned but not described. There are no mysticism or hero band rules yet. Overall the character concept may simply work better in HQ.

I think the best approach is to adapt the HW magic into spell lists and handle each sub cult as a different cult, each being associated with each other. Thus the Sartar cult is Donandar/Drogarsi or D/Skovara... the first mystic secret of Donandar is the common nature of rhythm and music, so that all musical gods are associated through Donandar, rather than he being a true subject of veneration. A troll initiate of Hombobobom (god of drums and dancing) knows that Donandar is the name for rhythm and that Hombobobom is the "brother" of Drogarsi, even though the two are from different pantheons, and thus they can share magic. So I'll handle the cult very differently than how I initially proposed (which was an attempt to make the '89 write-up usable for a PC). Hence each sub cult probably only teaches a handful of rune spells, and the rest come from the character's cultural background.

The Troop, however, substitutes a mystical sect for the ordinary side of the 'casual' initiates - most Drogarsi initiates are also Orlanth initiates, for example. PT members are not. This is not the cult of Donandar per se - though it is described as such by outsiders. Instead, it is a mystery religion with no actual central figure from the Green Age, which included even gods as ordinary members. Like the Three-Bean Circus (which may be a different fragment of the same thing), it is a remnant of the time before.

Thus the PC I was discussing with my daughter would start out for now as an initiate of Ernalda and Skovara who knows the Donandar secret so she can eventually learn music from other peoples and cults/befriend stranger entertainers. If she is played enough she could become a Puppeteer mystic - i.e., be Illuminated and learn that the universe is an Illusion. But that's not the way a "Donandar" minstrel approaches life, just the inner circle of the Troop/Troupe. Does this work for people...? It does for me.

Edited by jeffjerwin

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Before you go to far, currently in the GoG draft Donandar:

Donandar forbids no spirit magic or sorcery. The cult provides Bladesharp, Coordination, Glamour, and Heal at ½ price.

Donandar provides the following Common Rune Magic to all initiates: Divination, Extension, and Sanctify. In addition, initiates can learn the following special cult Rune spells: Harmonize, Illusionary Motion, Illusionary Sight, Illusionary Sound, and Switch Places. 

and I think all of the enchantments.

No associate cults, but Skovari, Molamin & Drogarsi are subservient.

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6 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

De, Ve, and Is seem like mystic entities (they sound even a little Draconic).

 

I assumed it was because they are De-Ve-Is!

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