If not Stormbringer, what then?

[seneschal]

4 hours ago, simonh said:

 

I have the same questions about Fantasy Earth. I’d love to be able to play Arabian knights adventures, but also in ancient Egypt and Babylon, but those are temporary and geographically mutually exclusive. My best guess is that we will get both, and therefore it will be a game and supplement line rather than a cohesive single setting.

It is tricky though. To be a proper setting a game needs to have major NPCs, politics, culture, national rivalries and such to make it a living world. The problem is that locks you in temporally very specifically, compared to a more generic ‘Ancient Egypt” setting book that is just rules and magic. This was the problem with the GURPS supplements and Land of Ninja. Etc. They were really half of a setting, to male it alive you also need campaign resources and scenarios.

What you are looking for is Disney's Aladdin the TV series.  😃  It gleefully mixed ancient and Middle Eastern tropes with D&D magic. You had Medieval Arabs mixing it up with Hellenistic mad scientists and Egyptian gods.  They even threw in a dinosaur in one episode.  Good times!

[Mugen]

2 hours ago, seneschal said:

What you are looking for is Disney's Aladdin the TV series.  😃  It gleefully mixed ancient and Middle Eastern tropes with D&D magic. You had Medieval Arabs mixing it up with Hellenistic mad scientists and Egyptian gods.  They even threw in a dinosaur in one episode.  Good times!

Or the Capharnaum roleplaying game, whose english version is lead by Sarah Newton.

[g33k]

2 hours ago, seneschal said:

What you are looking for is Disney's Aladdin the TV series.  😃  It gleefully mixed ancient and Middle Eastern tropes with D&D magic. You had Medieval Arabs mixing it up with Hellenistic mad scientists and Egyptian gods.  They even threw in a dinosaur in one episode.  Good times!

I'm having a kind of hard time seeing the major differences from Glorantha...  😉

Except, I guess, the decades of accumulated Gloranthropolgy...

}:-D>

 

[simonh]

19 minutes ago, g33k said:

I'm having a kind of hard time seeing the major differences from Glorantha...  😉

Except, I guess, the decades of accumulated Gloranthropolgy...

}:-D>

 

Pretty sure there’s more accumulated knowledge of real history, characters, religion and politics than there is for Glorantha.

[SDLeary]

16 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

No, the monographs never really went anywhere. I was thinking more alone the lines of how games like Hero, RoleMaster, and GURPS had one off Books for specific settings (Ancient Rome, Pirates, Robin Hood). I think that's probably the only way to cover a lot of bases without taking time away from existing lines. If something gets hot and people want more support for it, they can give it a supplement or two. If not, then at least it got covered. Otherwise they are only going to be able to support a couple of lines.

Agreed, but that was their intent. To start as not only a fan publication outlet, but to gauge where to take things and give more support. Specifically I had Cthulhu Invictus in mind. If newChaosium were to revive this, I think they could do far better. They seem to be more grounded. 

Quote

BTW, Any idea just what cultures are going to be in Fantasy Earth? Is it going to be Medieval, or Dark Age? Do we get Celtic Britain, Arthurian Britain, or Norman Britain? Do we have Ancient Egypt, Greece and Rome all at the height of their power? So many ways to go with it. 

I have heard nothing yet. Im not holding my breath though until after the RuneQuest 3 Classic kickstarter. 😂

SDLeary

Edited July 14, 2018 by SDLeary

[g33k]

It is my /belief/ that Chaosium has reached out to a shortlist of authors/devs with whom they have worked (or would like to work) with a call for pitches for RQ:FE titles/topics/etc, with some specific ideas (iirc someone at Chaosium mentioned a particular German / HolyRomanEmpire timeframe of special interest).

[Joerg]

19 hours ago, colinabrett said:

May I suggest, not knowing the who-owns-what-IP question, Fritz Lieber's Lankhmar (and by extension all of Nehwon)? It's a setting rich with most of the standard fantasy tropes (except elves and dwarfs) but filled with magic that has consequences, plane-hopping (e.g. Bazaar of the Bizarre and a few others), interfering gods,  meddlesome mages and even the possibility of ghouls as PCs. 

Aside from TSR's products, who might own the license to one of fantasy's leading lights?

Colin

Greg Stafford revealed years ago that Fritz Leiber (who was at that time an old man with a drink-related health problem) had originally licensed the property to Chaosium, but then had signed something that allowed TSR to produce their City of Lhankmar supplement for AD&D (which I regard as one of the best for that system, and a fair if hopelessly D20-indoctrinated treatment of the stetting). Chaosium chose not to contest that breach of contract legally because it would have been Leiber, a revered figure of Fantasy fandom, who would have had to bear the consequences.

Fritz Leiber can no longer be affected by any legal persecution, but what are the chances that the (signed and documented) license for Chaosium might be used nowadays?

[Joerg]

On 7/14/2018 at 8:59 AM, Atgxtg said:

 

BTW, Any idea just what cultures are going to be in Fantasy Earth? Is it going to be Medieval, or Dark Age? Do we get Celtic Britain, Arthurian Britain, or Norman Britain? 

I wonder why nobody considers Anglo-Saxon Britain as a setting, whether the conflicts around Christianisation between Penda and the Northumbrian brothers Oswald and Oswiu, the Viking plague, Alfred of Wessex, Athelstane, or the time of Aethelred Illeraed (the Unready) and Godwin. Any of these would have enough tension to make a good setting for heroic fantasy.

Anything Mediaeval will of course require a roleplaying treatment of Christianity and the powers of the church that can stand against the fantasy forces of magic, whether natural, pagan or demonic, which will result in a type of Christian magic system. King Arthur Pendragon simply gave a piety bonus as part of the rules frame, without any further explanation or need for magical rules, but a RQ treatment won't get away with that.

On 7/14/2018 at 8:59 AM, Atgxtg said:

Do we have Ancient Egypt, Greece and Rome all at the height of their power? So many ways to go with it. 

Having all of them at the height of their power in the same setting would be interesting, too... Something like the Rifts approach to non-contemporary and not quite compatible fantasy version of historical realms with at least an interior adherence to the historical facts might create something else in the fringes where influences overlap. These historical realms might even work as a sort of hero-planes to the actual gaming environments.

[tobarstep]

3 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I wonder why nobody considers Anglo-Saxon Britain as a setting

Isn't that Mythic Britain, from The Design Mechanism?

[nclarke]

Yep, Mythras Mythic Britain is pseudo Arthurian era  ala Cornwall books with a Saxon supplement as well as a forthcoming scenario pack set in the Fenlands of East Anglia (by Mark Shirley IIRC).

Edited July 15, 2018 by nclarke

[Joerg]

1 minute ago, tobarstep said:

Isn't that Mythic Britain, from The Design Mechanism?

To my knowledge, it has the Saxons as invaders interacting with native Romano-British forces, so this is Hengist and Horsa territory, possibly allowing to play the Bretwaldas up to and including Edwin of Deira. My list starts after that, in a time where we have British chroniclers rather than continental Latin monks active in Britain, when the Anglo-Saxons have taken on the mantle of the defenders of Britain rather than the conquerors.

[lawrence.whitaker]

Quote

To my knowledge, it has the Saxons as invaders interacting with native Romano-British forces, so this is Hengist and Horsa territory, possibly allowing to play the Bretwaldas up to and including Edwin of Deira. My list starts after that, in a time where we have British chroniclers rather than continental Latin monks active in Britain, when the Anglo-Saxons have taken on the mantle of the defenders of Britain rather than the conquerors.

Correct.

There's a possibility that we will, at some stage, produce a true Anglo Saxon book along these lines, but all the elements are actually in place to run and enjoy such a campaign already, if you know the history of the 8th-10th Centuries.

[SDLeary]

13 hours ago, tobarstep said:

Isn't that Mythic Britain, from The Design Mechanism?

Not really; at least a century too early for considering it Anglo-Saxon, and really more like two centuries.

SDLeary

[Questbird]

On 7/15/2018 at 12:55 AM, colinabrett said:

May I suggest, not knowing the who-owns-what-IP question, Fritz Lieber's Lankhmar (and by extension all of Nehwon)? It's a setting rich with most of the standard fantasy tropes (except elves and dwarfs) but filled with magic that has consequences, plane-hopping (e.g. Bazaar of the Bizarre and a few others), interfering gods,  meddlesome mages and even the possibility of ghouls as PCs. 

Aside from TSR's products, who might own the license to one of fantasy's leading lights?

Colin

 

The latest owners I think are Goodman Games, who have just run a mammoth Dungeon Crawl Classics kickstarter to produce canonical Lankhmar and Nehwon adventures. My main campaign is set in Nehwon so I collect all Leiber RPG resources I hear of. Here's the latest news from them: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1409961192/dcc-lankhmar/posts/2238326?ref=backer_project_update

[TrippyHippy]

To be honest, I'm not sure that there really is a substitute for a full Stormbringer RPG.

Trying to adapt another writer's work is noble thing to do, but it's own thing. If people want to make another Stormbringer game, then they should bite the bullet, build bridges with Moorecock and get developing on the project. If Moorecock says 'no', then I guess that is that - but people would at least be clear on the matter. 

A fully colour, fully developed Michael Moorecock's Stormbringer game - or series of games set in the Multiverse - ought to be somebody's Holy Grail still. 

 

Edited July 16, 2018 by TrippyHippy

[Atgxtg]

5 hours ago, TrippyHippy said:

To be honest, I'm not sure that there really is a substitute for a full Stormbringer RPG.

Trying to adapt another writer's work is noble thing to do, but it's own thing. If people want to make another Stormbringer game, then they should bite the bullet, build bridges with Moorecock and get developing on the project. If Moorecock says 'no', then I gues that is that - but people would at least be clear on the matter. 

I don't think he would say no. I think it is more a question of how much he would want, and if Chaosium would be willing to pay it. One reason for them not doing so would be that SB didn't seem to be all that popular. It never got anywhere near the support that RQ or CoC did. I think at one point there might have been more editions than supplements. So maybe it might not bring in enough to be worth pursing the license?

I don't know if I'd want to buy (yet) another SB1-4 or Elric! clone. Maybe something using Magic World, so we'd get a mix of the best of SB1 and Elric!,  but I really don't want to buy the same exact rulebook (yet) again.  

[lawrence.whitaker]

There was a time where most decent bookstores (new and second hand), public libraries, and charity shops, had an entire shelf dedicated to MM's works. This was during the late 70s and early-mid 80s which is when the Stormbringer RPG was released. It wasn't a massive seller then (it took about 2.5 years for the Stormbringer Companion to be released; another two for Demon Magic), and although there have been old stalwarts like us fighting its corner, sales steadily declined - even with the Elric! and SB5 reboot. Mongoose were happy to let their license lapse because sales simply didn't warrant the efforts involved - and they enjoyed very good relations with MM.

These days, you're hard-pressed to find any of MM's books on the shelves of decent bookstores (new and second hand), public libraries, and charity shops, so relaunching the Stormbringer RPG (or any Moorcockian RPG) is going to be a very risky venture, irrespective of relations with Mike. Of course, if the long-rumoured Elric film or HBO spectacular ever materialises, then that could change, but the reality is that Mike's work simply doesn't have the profile it once did; and at its height, 'Stormbringer' never really made a huge impact on the RPG market.

[RosenMcStern]

4 minutes ago, lawrence.whitaker said:

Of course, if the long-rumoured Elric film or HBO spectacular ever materialises, then that could change, but the reality is that Mike's work simply doesn't have the profile it once did; and at its height, 'Stormbringer' never really made a huge impact on the RPG market.

But it did have an impact on the development of RPGs, particularly the D100 ones. Its unique approach to BRP is still in use, even in one small-but-important detail of RQG!

[Atgxtg]

2 hours ago, lawrence.whitaker said:

These days, you're hard-pressed to find any of MM's books on the shelves of decent bookstores (new and second hand), public libraries, and charity shops, so relaunching the Stormbringer RPG (or any Moorcockian RPG) is going to be a very risky venture, irrespective of relations with Mike. Of course, if the long-rumoured Elric film or HBO spectacular ever materialises, then that could change, but the reality is that Mike's work simply doesn't have the profile it once did; and at its height, 'Stormbringer' never really made a huge impact on the RPG market.

All too true. Most of the Elric stories were from the 60s, and his popularity probably peaked in the 60s and 70s. Even at the time Strombringer came out, he probably wan't as pouplar as he once was. By now I think you almost have to be an ol' timer like us to to be aware of Elric. 

2 hours ago, RosenMcStern said:

But it did have an impact on the development of RPGs, particularly the D100 ones. Its unique approach to BRP is still in use, even in one small-but-important detail of RQG!

Yeah,  not to mention D&D alignment. But does it have an impact with the latest generation of gamers and designers? Hey, maybe PD stuff isn't the way to go after all? Maybe if they are going to go after a licensed setting they should go after something relevant to the current generation of gamers? 

 

At least we are lucky enough to have Magic World. I didn't get MW until recently, so I wasn't aware how close it is to being Stormbringer 6. It's a nice blend of old Stombringer and Elric!. 

[Jakob]

8 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Yeah,  not to mention D&D alignment. But does it have an impact with the latest generation of gamers and designers? Hey, maybe PD stuff isn't the way to go after all? Maybe if they are going to go after a licensed setting they should go after something relevant to the current generation of gamers? 

That was actually one of the things I was thinking about when I started this thread - what kind of Fantasy (or sf) setting from a book or a graphic novel or whatever is as radically different and yet easily accesible for most fantasy readers as the Elric saga was in the 70s and 80s? Elric, for some part, was pretty conventional Sword&Sorcery, but it also had tons of political subtext, and in the later Elric stories, especially the novels, Moorcock was doing more and more experimental stuff. It worked on many Levels.

(However, it also turned into an ugly, unwieldy construct at some point at some point - as much as I love both Elric and von Bek, I wasn't at all a fan of the crossover - Now With Evil Chaos NAZIS! - in "The Dream-Thiefs Daughter". That one felt really forced and on-the-nose.)

Anyway, I'm rambling ... I asked myself: What more recent fantasy novel series had a similar Impact and would make for a cool rpg setting. First thing I came up with was China Mieville's Perdido Street Station/The Scar/Iron Council, but maybe they're alread old news again. Maybe the thing to go for would be N.K. Jemisin's Broken Earth series, which I haven't read yet, but which gets all kinds of awards and recognition and is supposed to be stylistically and thematically different from most of what came before in the genre.

[Atgxtg]

The obvious answer is Game of Thrones, but I think Green Ronin still holds the rights to that.

[Jakob]

4 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

The obvious answer is Game of Thrones, but I think Green Ronin still holds the rights to that.

Actually not, I remember them announcing sometime around the beginning of 2018 that their license is at an end and that they will keep selling published material, but won't and can't publish anything new.

I guess they'll try to make up for it with the Expanse license ...

[Atgxtg]

4 minutes ago, Jakob said:

Actually not, I remember them announcing sometime around the beginning of 2018 that their license is at an end and that they will keep selling published material, but won't and can't publish anything new.

I wonder why? Maybe it was too expensive, or didn't sell as well as they hoped? Or maybe they figured that when the TV series ends the market will dry up? That's always a problem with licensed settings: people who will watch a TV show won't necessarily buy a game based on it, or even play it for very long- they are fans of the show, not necessarily gamers. Nor will people who are gamers necessarily switch campaigns to do so. 

 

Of course if Chaosium secured the rights to the film Highlander, I'd pre-order as fast as I can type. 

Edited July 16, 2018 by Atgxtg

[Jakob]

4 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Of course if Chaosium secured the rights to the film Highlander, I'd pre-order as fast as I can type. 

I guess you refer to the first movie of that title, and not to the whole weirdly interellated movie-tv-universe that stopped making any sense before even trying to start making sense ...

[Atgxtg]

5 minutes ago, Jakob said:

I guess you refer to the first movie of that title, and not to the whole weirdly interellated movie-tv-universe that stopped making any sense before even trying to start making sense ...

You got it. As the folks at White Wolf put it: "There should have been only one!". That said the TV series was okay. But I could live with an RPG that covered both the film(s) and the series. Just as long as they weren't all aliens from the planet Zeist.

Edited July 16, 2018 by Atgxtg