Best Reading Sources on Kralorela/Koromandol/Bliss in Ignorance ?

[JanPospisil]

What the title says - what are the best sources to read if one's interested in this part of Glorantha?

Do we know if there's anything new (publication-wise) being planned around there?

[Roko Joko]

There's not enough fan stuff for there to be any point in saying which is best.

For published stuff, besides the Guide there's Revealed Mythologies, and bits in the 2nd age books, HW core, and in Gloranth: Intro to the HW.  Not much in HQ1 IIRC.

[M Helsdon]

3 hours ago, JanPospisil said:

What the title says - what are the best sources to read if one's interested in this part of Glorantha?

Do we know if there's anything new (publication-wise) being planned around there?

At Dragonmeet last year, there was mention of a forthcoming supplement set in the port city of Lur Nop.

The best currently available source is, of course, the Guide.

Edited July 10, 2018 by M Helsdon

[JanPospisil]

Lur Nop? :)) One of those names, eh?

Edited July 10, 2018 by JanPospisil

[M Helsdon]

5 minutes ago, JanPospisil said:

Lur Nop? :)) One of those names, eh?

One of those places where round eyed devils are permitted...

Lur Nop (large city): This city in Wanzow is the only port of Kralorela which is open to foreign shipping. Traders from Vormain, the East Isles, Teshnos, Teleos, and the Holy Country meet here. Each barbarian nation has its own enclave, carefully overseen by the mandarins. Near the city is the Thousand Dragon Cliff, renowned for its numerous draconic images which have been carved out of the rock since before the Dawn.

[JanPospisil]

Yeah, I just looked up the relevant part in GtG. Yeah, I can see why that would be a good place to set a supplement.

With the name, I meant this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lop_Nur

[M Helsdon]

1 hour ago, JanPospisil said:

With the name, I meant this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lop_Nur

Well, Peloria means monstrous in Greek....

[Joerg]

15 hours ago, JanPospisil said:

Yeah, I just looked up the relevant part in GtG. Yeah, I can see why that would be a good place to set a supplement.

With the name, I meant this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lop_Nur

Spot on, yes.

[boztakang]

The works of Edward Lear appear in lots of place names and some of the odder inhabitants of Koromandol. And have a very distinctive visual style.
http://www.nonsenselit.org/Lear/ll/ybb.html 

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/13650/13650-h/13650-h.htm#songs
 

For Bliss in Ignorance, films like "blood feast" and "2000 maniacs" were apparently inspirational in parts https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056875/?ref_=nm_flmg_dr_33 

[JanPospisil]

Right, I caught those references, mostly.

 

Why I originally asked this - I quite like the idea of Kralorela and would love to do something with it. (what exactly depends somewhat on my future schedule and also what possibilities are left open by the existing material)  

But of course, I wouldn't want to go against any established canon.

[Joerg]

Established canon is rather weak, and the Guide probably sums up most that is known about that region, with plenty of material first canonized in the Guide - check out the Group Read thread about Kralorela to catch obscure references outside of your own pop culture background. Apart from the Guide, Revealed Mythologies and obscure mentions in Middle Sea Empire there isn't much specifically Kralorelan. There are speculations on whether the dragon emperors really came as a succession or whether several contemporary local ones were put into a sequence by later chronists.

There are obvious sources, like Marco Polo or other European "first contacters" to Cathay, like various Jesuits. Much of the Mongol dynasty might be useful for Sheng's interlude in Godunya's Kralorela, and what remained of his enforced interaction between Pelorian and Kralori subjects after the new mask of the Red Emperor solved Godunya's Pentan problem.
 

I have come to believe that the Closing was refuted by Kahar, and never extended into the Sea of Fog. That would make Sheng's nearly successful assault on Vormain much less surprising. (Not that sailing the Sea of Fog would have been any less dangerous without the complication of the Closing, with potentially hostile Zabdamar swimming through the denser parts of the fog, able to attack from above...)

I will admit rather blissful ignorance on the topic of Bliss in Ignorance. A bit of Fu Man Chu (and other such worst "WOG" stereotypes) meets the demon-world, mixed with a clueless trollkin and troll population.

The huan-to appear to be the resident top chaotics/antigods, claiming some of the same highland regions as the hsunchen populations, giving room for three-way conflicts between the Dragon Empire, the Korgatsu shamans and evil sorcery.

[jajagappa]

11 hours ago, JanPospisil said:

Right, I caught those references, mostly.

 

Why I originally asked this - I quite like the idea of Kralorela and would love to do something with it. (what exactly depends somewhat on my future schedule and also what possibilities are left open by the existing material)  

But of course, I wouldn't want to go against any established canon. 

Also look through David Millians Kralorela material in the online Rule One magazine starting with Issue 3.  Not explicitly canonical, but I think you would find useful.

http://ruleonemagazine.com/Archive.php

There's the Kralori Sky in issue 4, the Archexarchs in Issue 5, lots of Kralori ghosts in issue 8, BoShan province in issue 13, and cults of Chern Durel in issue 15

http://ruleonemagazine.com/Iss15/CultsofChernDurel.php

[metcalph]

12 hours ago, Joerg said:

I have come to believe that the Closing was refuted by Kahar, and never extended into the Sea of Fog.

Kahar's not the sort of person who can withstand the Closing and describing it as "refuting" is bizarro-gamespeak that should be avoided.  

More serious to the idea that the Closing does not extend to the Sea of Fog.  The New Dragons Ring concealed the Closing for a generation (Guide p264).  This may be related to the Battle of Diao Yu Cheng (Guide p272) in which the New Dragons Ring failed to take the city despite the possibility of doing a naval landing further up the coast.  Likewise the Kralorelan Fleet is described as being confined to the Suam Chow during the Closing (Guide p264 and p467).

 

 

[Joerg]

8 hours ago, metcalph said:

Kahar's not the sort of person who can withstand the Closing and describing it as "refuting" is bizarro-gamespeak that should be avoided.  

Kahar, already armed with Veldru, attended Nenduren or one of his disciples for long enough to attain the Blessing of Atrilith through Perfect Stillness (RM p.83). His wife Thrunhin Da is a True Dragon or otherwise a major Sea Deity. That's plenty of mystic power, if short of Mashunasan or Venforn. Enough to ignore the wavefront of a weird spell or curse originating from an island a continent away, also because the Sea of Fog doesn't have a well-defined surface.

(But then Waertagi attack craft which travel under the water surface appear to have been affected by the Closing, too.)

 

8 hours ago, metcalph said:

More serious to the idea that the Closing does not extend to the Sea of Fog.  The New Dragons Ring concealed the Closing for a generation (Guide p264). 

The effect of the Closing being that no ships would carry stuff between Kralorela and the core countries of the Empire any more. The naval connection to Eest never was broken, as there are straits between Fanzai and the Genertelan mainland in the west and behind a belt of offshore islands in the east. Thus, the threat of more adventurist men-of-all and sorcerers from the distant west remained credible even though there was no way to make that happen any more.

8 hours ago, metcalph said:

This may be related to the Battle of Diao Yu Cheng (Guide p272) in which the New Dragons Ring failed to take the city despite the possibility of doing a naval landing further up the coast. 

Diao Yu Cheng is a river port fairly far inland on the Kawai Tan Kang river. Its importance as a fishing port must come from seasonal fishing or whaling or similar long range activities which are basically fishing .expeditions. I have no idea whether there were any such in the Yellow Sea, but the Baltic and Atlantic coasts of Scandinavia had such seasonal appearance of huge swarms which made it worth sailing 200 miles to reap the bounty of the sea.

8 hours ago, metcalph said:

Likewise the Kralorelan Fleet is described as being confined to the Suam Chow during the Closing (Guide p264 and p467).

Which makes me wonder whether there was a Kralorelan fleet during Sheng's reign which might have opposed Sheng's reign.

I think it is more likely that Sheng's Vormain expedition was the only naval operation outside of the Suam Chow during the Closing, and that after this near total loss the fleet was rebuilt. And anyway, keeping a wooden ship afloat for the 540 years of the Closing should be an impossible feat, even if you work with piecemeal replacement. Maintaining the fleet may have been a ritual requirement for the defense of Kralorela, although that didn't work so well against Sheng.

It isn't clear from those two places in the Guide whether the confinement of the fleet to the Suam Chow was because of knowledge of the Closing or because the extent of the Closing into Kahar's Sea of Fog was tested. The map on p.139 does show a wavefront which seems to wrap up to the middle of Hum Chang, but no further north - the map on p.463 calls these waters the Sedeni Ocean. No later wavefront is shown for the northern edge of the East Isles (the Menterinan Sea, only named on the maps). It almost looks as if the wavefront stops before entering the Sea of Fog.

The "sweep" which captured all ships afloat and drove them before the wave-front of the Closing probably did reach into the eastern coastal waters, penetrating even between the offshore islands, but those islands remained in contact with the main islands.

The unseasonal hurricane encountered by Sheng's fleet to the Hinter Isles may have been an effect of the Closing, or it may have been caused by the magic of Kahar or the Vormain pantheon.

My theory that Kahar's Sea wasn't affected hasn't really been addressed by the statements in the Guide. We know of one fleet that almost made it to the Hinter Isles, and was caught by that hurricane only when emerging from the fog. We know of no other attempts to sail the Sea of Fog.

[metcalph]

On 7/20/2018 at 12:14 AM, Joerg said:

Kahar, already armed with Veldru, attended Nenduren or one of his disciples for long enough to attain the Blessing of Atrilith through Perfect Stillness (RM p.83).

Perfect Stillness is described therein as
 

Quote

 

This
does not attempt to attain the ultimate reality that
Mashunasan practices, but only to make oneself perfect for
the task of living right and well with all the universe.

There's a bit of an anacrhonism there in that Perfect Stillness was created by Enrono to repair the flaws of Stillness.  In any event this is hardly the evidence of Kahar as being a really powerful mystic and more indicative of hishaving mastered courtly etiquette in Osdero's palace.

 

On 7/20/2018 at 12:14 AM, Joerg said:

His wife Thrunhin Da is a True Dragon or otherwise a major Sea Deity.

His wife is Harantara.  She is said to be Thruhin Da when she appears as a Dragon but she does not appear as a Dragon as the wife of Kahar.  According to the Guide p153, Harantara is known as Thruhin Da by the Kralori and p79 taught them the Cult of Orca to combat the wicked Zabdamar (her own children).  Clearly the relationship between them is far from clear.

 

 

On 7/20/2018 at 12:14 AM, Joerg said:

(But then Waertagi attack craft which travel under the water surface appear to have been affected by the Closing, too.)

I really don't have much time for these types of asides.  The topic isn't about the Waertagi and the Closing, it's about the Kralori Fleet and the Sea of Fog.

 

On 7/20/2018 at 12:14 AM, Joerg said:

Diao Yu Cheng is a river port fairly far inland on the Kawai Tan Kang river. Its importance as a fishing port must come from seasonal fishing or whaling or similar long range activities which are basically fishing .expeditions. I have no idea whether there were any such in the Yellow Sea, but the Baltic and Atlantic coasts of Scandinavia had such seasonal appearance of huge swarms which made it worth sailing 200 miles to reap the bounty of the sea.

 

This isn't adding much to the debate.  Telling me that whaling is "basically fishing expedition"  is verbiage that can be easily deleted.  Nor is the nature of Scandinavian fishing really relevant here.

 

On 7/20/2018 at 12:14 AM, Joerg said:

It isn't clear from those two places in the Guide whether the confinement of the fleet to the Suam Chow was because of knowledge of the Closing or because the extent of the Closing into Kahar's Sea of Fog was tested.

It's rather clear to me that the Closing extended into the Sea of Fog as the quotations make plain.

 

[Jeff]

Jan - just ping me when you get a chance. I've got stuff that might be interesting.

[Joerg]

On 7/21/2018 at 10:10 AM, metcalph said:

There's a bit of an anacrhonism there in that Perfect Stillness was created by Enrono to repair the flaws of Stillness.  In any event this is hardly the evidence of Kahar as being a really powerful mystic and more indicative of hishaving mastered courtly etiquette in Osdero's palace..

Courtly etiquette is hardly something you learn from meditating on a mystic practice.

 

Quote

His wife is Harantara.  She is said to be Thruhin Da when she appears as a Dragon but she does not appear as a Dragon as the wife of Kahar.  According to the Guide p153, Harantara is known as Thruhin Da by the Kralori and p79 taught them the Cult of Orca to combat the wicked Zabdamar (her own children).  Clearly the relationship between them is far from clear.

Thrunhin Da is the Blue Dragon of the Deep. That clearly is not a reference to the Suam Chow, but to the seas beyond Hum Chang, which means the Sedeni Ocean and Kahar's Sea.

May I point you to p.746 which has plate 35 depicting Can Shu fighting a blue dragon aided by Zabdamar.

P.153 doesn't give any qualifiers at all when giving the runes for Harantara / Thrunhin Da in Kralorela. P.57 (Kralori Culture) doesn't mention anything about the Cult of the Orca,, but does confirm her role as mother of the Zabdamar.

 

The Cult of the Orca is mentioned only in the Dragon chapter of the Guide.

The extension of the water above the surface of the sea makes the Sea of Fog something of a special case.

Quote

It's rather clear to me that the Closing extended into the Sea of Fog as the quotations make plain.

Your quotations are limited to the Kralori war fleet, and don't take into account Sheng's Vormain expedition, which again brought in some form of mysticism which may have ignored otherwise impassable barriers. Sheng's fleet had no problem until (almost?) within sight of their destination, and at least some vessels appear to have made it back for the news of the unseasonal hurricane to be spread.

You would expect that the inhabitants of a fishing port would have noticed that their boats don't return from the Sea of Fog any more.  (The Rightarm Islanders sure did notice the absence of blue water fishing.) The nature of the fishing activities from an inland river port like Diao Yu Cheng does require a closer look when they may have been affected by the Closing.

 

The battle of Diao Yu Cheng basically happened in the inland. The place being a fishing port (at the time) indicates that there was naval activity extending to more than just the river estuary. River fishing doesn't exactly require a fortified port.

Taigang, further up the coast, also mentions the naval traditions, without any reference to the Closing, indicating that coastal shipping wasn't interfered with during this time.

[GianniVacca]

On 7/18/2018 at 3:39 PM, Joerg said:

I will admit rather blissful ignorance on the topic of Bliss in Ignorance. A bit of Fu Man Chu (and other such worst "WOG" stereotypes) meets the demon-world, mixed with a clueless trollkin and troll population.

 

No trolls in Ignorance-- it's a mixed human-trollkin population, see pages 287 & 289 of the Guide.

[Joerg]

Eristiland has 100k trolls, and North Pent has trolls, too. The total  troll population of Kralorela is one million (p.268), and none of the other provincial maps acknowledge any troll presence, so I have to assume that there is this massive troll population just outside of the two regional political maps of Ignorance, to the north.

The Black Sun is worshipped by the northeastern trolls, too.

Edited October 31, 2018 by Joerg

[Roko Joko]

Also, GTG p. 101 "Many trolls remain [in Chen Durel], willing servants of the rulers, along with hundreds of thousands of enslaved trollkin".

Edited November 1, 2018 by Roko Joko

[Sir_Godspeed]

On 7/10/2018 at 10:09 PM, JanPospisil said:

Lur Nop? :)) One of those names, eh?

Speaking of "Those names", I was quite amused to find a place named after the Coromandel - ie. the southeastern coast of India opposite Sri Lanka. Not sure what caused the borrowing beyond the name sounding good. I can attest that the real Coromandel is anything but windy and subarctic.

[JanPospisil]

5 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Speaking of "Those names", I was quite amused to find a place named after the Coromandel - ie. the southeastern coast of India opposite Sri Lanka. Not sure what caused the borrowing beyond the name sounding good. I can attest that the real Coromandel is anything but windy and subarctic.

I think it's been previously said it's (among a few others) taken from this Edward Lear poem: 

 

Edited November 1, 2018 by JanPospisil

[Sir_Godspeed]

Interesting! So a bit of a case of creative Chinese whispers, as it were. Thanks for the explanation.

[Joerg]

That explains the province of Bosh(a/e)n and its sunset islands, too...