RQG - Critical Crushing Damage clarification

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

@Jason Durall What's the critical damage for a crushing weapon in RQG?

Is it

• Max weapon damage + Max dam bonus + Dam bonus rolled as normal

or

• Max Weapon Damage + Max Dam Bonus + Max Dam bonus

 

Reading through the the section on Crushing damage p206, it only mentions special damage, theres no mention of critical damage. In contrast the two previous sections on Impaling damage, and Slashing damage do clarify critical damage. 

The only explanation I've found is the boxed section on p203 Summary of special damage results, which says " A critical success inflicts the maximum possible special damage type and ignores any armor." 

So what is the maximum possible critical damage type for crushing weapons? Do we maximise the normal rolled damage modifier as well?

 

 

[PhilHibbs]

I think it is:

• Max Weapon Damage + Rolled Damage Bonus + Rolled Damage Bonus

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

2 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I think it is:

• Max Weapon Damage + Rolled Damage Bonus + Rolled Damage Bonus

Except that crushing special damage already uses Weapon damage + max dam bonus + rolled dam bonus 

[jps]

As I read it: it's max damage bonus then you roll your weapon damage and you roll your damage bonus. As it's stated in the rules: if you have no damage bonus crushing is useless. 

So a Maul dealing a special success, swung by an Uz with a +1D6 damage bonus, would deliver 6 (max damage bonus) + 2D8 + 1D6.

Crushing weapons are much less effective than thrusting or slashing weapons.

[HreshtIronBorne]

They are less effective if you aren't a giant or huge monster. A 3d6 damage bonus would yield a maul swing of 2d8+3d6+18 on either a special or a crit. So crushing weapons are great for big baddies and better than others for consistent special damage. Also, no stickage. 

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

20 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

A 3d6 damage bonus would yield a maul swing of 2d8+3d6+18 on either a special or a crit.

My question is about critical Crushing damage.

I think the special damage on Crushing is clear, but critical Crushing damage isnt clear whether the rolled damage bonus is also maxed - Criticals are stated as maximum special damage ignoring armour. 

[jps]

A critical damage ignores armor that's all

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

3 minutes ago, jps said:

A critical damage ignores armor that's all

Not according to the boxed text. It clearly states that a critical does the maxium special damage for the damage type 

[jps]

Erf you're right, it's confusing. The boxed text contradicts the the rule on page 206 by adding an extra effect.

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

It is a bit confusing.

The sections on Impale and slashing damage do mention criticals as being maxium special damage. So I imagine the boxed text is correct.

Odd that Crushing critical damage  effect is not mentioned at all in the Crushing damage section. Seems amiss, particularly as the boxed text explains the effect of criticals - I’m just not sure if you max out the rolled damage bonus as well with critical crush? 

 

 

 

Edited July 19, 2018 by Paid a bod yn dwp

[Pentallion]

7 hours ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Not according to the boxed text. It clearly states that a critical does the maxium special damage for the damage type 

The maximum special damage is rolled damage + max str bonus (this is what they mean by the "maximum special damage") + rolled str bonus  PLUS it ignores armor.

That's my take anyways.

Edited July 20, 2018 by Pentallion

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

4 hours ago, Pentallion said:

The maximum special damage is rolled damage + max str bonus (this is what they mean by the "maximum special damage") + rolled str bonus  PLUS it ignores armor.

Surely a critical crush would be maxium rolled damage + max damage bonus + either rolled damage bonus/ or max damage bonus? 

The sections on impale and slash make it clear that any magical bonus and damage bonus are rolled normally after doubling the weapon damage with special damage. So maybe that’s the way to go with crush? The issue i have is, the damage is worked out quite differently for crush specials, which makes me think that maybe that the same logic doesn’t necessarily apply here. I’d hazard a guess that it’s the same logic. Meaning critical crush is:

• Maxium rolled damage + max dam bonus + rolled dam bonus 

 

What’s needed is an explicit paragraph that explains under the crush section how Crits are calculated, as is done with impale and slash. If it can be done for impale and slash, why not repeat the same successful explanation for crush? 

Edited July 20, 2018 by Paid a bod yn dwp

[PhilHibbs]

4 hours ago, Pentallion said:

The maximum special damage is rolled damage + max str bonus (this is what they mean by the "maximum special damage") + rolled str bonus  PLUS it ignores armor.

That's my take anyways.

I don't see any justification for that - the "special" part is that you roll damage bonus twice, just like the "special" part of impale is you roll weapon damage twice. Hm, actually I see what you mean now. And going by Jason's ruling in the EncounterRP session, that makes sense, he was ruling that a critical impale did max + roll + DB. Or, better said as roll + max + DB. However the text contradicts this by saying that the 1D6+1 spear weapon does 14 points of damage plus rolled DB.

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

14 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

However the text contradicts this by saying that the 1D6+1 spear weapon does 14 points of damage plus rolled DB.

The text is consistent here. I’d say that’s  right. Special damage becomes maximised under a critical - the full possible special damage 

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

45 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

And going by Jason's ruling in the EncounterRP session, that makes sense, he was ruling that a critical impale did max + roll + DB. Or, better said as roll + max + DB

Looks like he contradicted the written rule a little, to be forgiven playing the game at 4am. He must have a lot of playtest versions of the rules rattling around in his head

On critical impale the text is pretty clear I think. Special damage is maximised ignoring armour, then you add any damage bonus or magical bonus as normal. So it should be

Critical Impale

• Max weapon Damage + Max Weapon Damage + damage bonus rolled as normal 

Edited July 20, 2018 by Paid a bod yn dwp

[PhilHibbs]

Hopefully there will be quick reference tables in the GM Pack that make this all clear and consistent.

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

Ok - looking over the rules again I found reference to a general rule on critical attacks that has details missing from the section on special attacks descriptions.

A few pages before there is a boxed text section on p200 summary of combat results. 

“A critical success ignores armor and does maximum special damage plus damage bonus.“

For future printings it would be helpful if this was repeated in the section on special attacks, particularly the boxed text which does mention maximum damage in reference to criticals, but fails to mention the plus damage bonus leading to the confusion in this thread.

 

 

Edited July 23, 2018 by Paid a bod yn dwp

[PhilHibbs]

52 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

“A critical success ignores armor and does maximum special damage plus damage bonus.“

Ok, from that I would conclude that a crush does max weapon damage + max damage bonus + rolled damage bonus, since on damage bonus is special and the other isn't.

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

2 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Ok, from that I would conclude that a crush does max weapon damage + max damage bonus + rolled damage bonus, since on damage bonus is special and the other isn't.

Yep agreed 

[tnli]

Nobody commented on this thread on the Crush special damage. Suppose that your crushing weapon does 1d6 damage, and you have a -1d4 damage bonus.

On a normal success, you do 1d6 -1d4 damage.

On a special success, you do what, 1d6 -1 (max damage bonus) -1d4 damage?

And on a crit you do what? 6 -1 -1d4?

[PhilHibbs]

23 minutes ago, tnli said:

On a normal success, you do 1d6 -1d4 damage.

On a special success, you do what, 1d6 -1 (max damage bonus) -1d4 damage?

And on a crit you do what? 6 -1 -1d4?

Yes, I'd interpret it as "most damage" rather than "biggest number even if it's negative". -1 is a higher number than -4, mathematically speaking.

Actually I would ignore the -1. It makes little sense to do less damage on a special than on a normal.

Edited March 4, 2020 by PhilHibbs

[Akhôrahil]

On 7/19/2018 at 3:21 PM, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

• Max Weapon Damage + Max Dam Bonus + Max Dam bonus

This. You do special damage, only maximized. Same thing goes for Slash and Impale.

(However, it should be noted that the example text on p. 206 has a completely different description, where instead of doing [Max normal weapon roll] + [Max special damage roll] + [Max Damage Bonus roll], you roll [Normal Weapon Damage roll] + [Max additional special damage roll] + [Normal damage bonus roll]. However, I no longer even remotely trust example text in RQG, because it's so badly edited as to be more misleading than helpful. For instance, it's in direct contradiction to the results table, which makes it abundantly clear that it's at least [Max normal weapon roll] + [Max additional special damage roll], and which is also supported by the rules text. Just toss it! My rule of thumb is Table > Rules Text > Example. Only the handling of the damage bonus seems like it could be unclear.)

Edited March 4, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Akhôrahil]

On 7/23/2018 at 10:45 AM, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

“A critical success ignores armor and does maximum special damage plus damage bonus.“

It's unfortunately impossible to tell whether this means "maximum (special damage plus damage bonus)“ or "(maximum special damage) plus (damage bonus)“.

[Akhôrahil]

50 minutes ago, tnli said:

Nobody commented on this thread on the Crush special damage. Suppose that your crushing weapon does 1d6 damage, and you have a -1d4 damage bonus.

-1 is higher than -4. Maximizing -1D4 means -1, as it's the highest roll.

However, it still means that a Crush with negative damage bonus does less damage than a non-Crush, which is hilarious.

Edited March 4, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Akhôrahil]

Parallel question: If you crit with an Atlatl, does the extra D6 damage get maximized? Does an Impale do 2D10+1D6, or 2D10+2D6 (that is, is the additional damage part of what gets rolled again)? Assuming 1D2 modified damage bonus, does an Atlatl Crit do 20+1D6+1D2, 20+2D6+1D2, 26+1D2, 28, 32+1D2, 34, or something else?

I say "Yes", "Uhh, not sure, really, probably the former?" and "28, I think?" respectively.

Edited March 4, 2020 by Akhôrahil