RQG - Critical Crushing Damage clarification

[gochie]

It's very strange in the rules. For some reason crushing damage doesn't increase in damage on a crit while the other ones do.

I would do:

Special: Weapon damage + STR bonus (x2)

Crit: Weapon damage + Max STR bonus (x2)

[7Tigers]

14 minutes ago, gochie said:

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

 

 

Error from my side. Please ignore

Edited March 4, 2020 by 7Tigers
Error

[tnli]

21 hours ago, gochie said:

It's very strange in the rules. For some reason crushing damage doesn't increase in damage on a crit while the other ones do.

I would do:

Special: Weapon damage + STR bonus (x2)

Crit: Weapon damage + Max STR bonus (x2)

I determined that this makes the most sense for me:

Special Damage = Rolled weapon damage + max damage bonus (0 if db is 0 or negative) + rolled damage bonus

Critical Damage = Max weapon damage + max damage bonus (0 if db is 0 or negative) + rolled damage bonus

[Shiningbrow]

On 3/4/2020 at 11:22 PM, 7Tigers said:

 

 

 

Error from my side. Please ignore

 

16 hours ago, tnli said:

I determined that this makes the most sense for me:

Special Damage = Rolled weapon damage + max damage bonus (0 if db is 0 or negative) + rolled damage bonus

Critical Damage = Max weapon damage + max damage bonus (0 if db is 0 or negative) + rolled damage bonus

With or without armour?

[PhilHibbs]

6 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

With or without armour?

All damage is rolled and added before armour. Criticals ignore armour. The only damage modifiers that apply after armour are explicitly stated - species-specific like iron, Humakti doubling gifts, etc.

[gochie]

23 hours ago, tnli said:

Special Damage = Rolled weapon damage + max damage bonus (0 if db is 0 or negative) + rolled damage bonus

Should this not be: Rolled weapon damage + rolled damage bonus (x2)? 

The other special hits don't max any damage. 

[Akhôrahil]

12 minutes ago, gochie said:

Should this not be: Rolled weapon damage + rolled damage bonus (x2)? 

The other special hits don't max any damage. 

Crushes are different this way.

[Shiningbrow]

52 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

All damage is rolled and added before armour. Criticals ignore armour. The only damage modifiers that apply after armour are explicitly stated - species-specific like iron, Humakti doubling gifts, etc.

Should be - just wasn't clear from the above posts that they were keeping that.

[Shiningbrow]

I'd like to know... Why?

What's the justification for the differences between these specials?

It seems pretty arbitrary to me.

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

36 minutes ago, gochie said:

Should this not be: Rolled weapon damage + rolled damage bonus (x2)? 

The other special hits don't max any damage. 

Criticals all do max special damage + rolled damage modifier, and any extra damage from spells, ignoring armour.

 

Critical Crush 
In the case of critical crush the special damage is:

• weapon damage plus + full damage modifier

So that would need to be maximised in a critical.

You then add your rolled damage modified as normal. The combined damage ignores amour. 
 

The last sentence p206 

“if an adventurer making the crush has no damage modifier the effect of the crush is lost” 

I interpret this as ignoring the special damage. Which in the case of crush would mean ignoring the part -adding the full damage modifier.
I would still roll the normal damage modifier however, as that’s not part of the special damage.
 

Negative damage modifier 

A Crit would minimise a negative damage modifier. So that would naturally result in a minus 1. 

Edited March 6, 2020 by Paid a bod yn dwp

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

2 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

I'd like to know... Why?

What's the justification for the differences between these specials?

It seems pretty arbitrary to me.

Crush epitomises sheer brute force. I imagine that’s why it’s tied to the damage modifier. The bigger you are the bigger you hit.

[Thaz]

1 minute ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Crush epitomises sheer brute force. I imagine that’s why it’s tied to the damage modifier. The bigger you are the bigger you hit.

and in particular Trolls and up are hyper effective with crushing weapons (Strength and Bludgeon and Trolls and Lead Weapons = OUCH. Great Trolls in DOUBLE OUCH). 

[Shiningbrow]

3 minutes ago, Thaz said:

and in particular Trolls and up are hyper effective with crushing weapons (Strength and Bludgeon and Trolls and Lead Weapons = OUCH. Great Trolls in DOUBLE OUCH). 

But that's only because of the rules. If the rules were different, it wouldn't be the case.

[Shiningbrow]

7 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Crush epitomises sheer brute force. I imagine that’s why it’s tied to the damage modifier. The bigger you are the bigger you hit.

Possibly... But it's not also unlike an axe. Very similar mechanics.

[Thaz]

5 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

But that's only because of the rules. If the rules were different, it wouldn't be the case.

And your point is? The rules are there to deliberately model that crushing weapons become more and more effective with size and strength. Which seems fair to me. And I have a LOT of experience of being hit by blunt metal weapons while wearing heavy armour. 

[Thaz]

7 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Possibly... But it's not also unlike an axe. Very similar mechanics.

Using an axe in combat is utterly different to a mace. And in fact even the largest of actual combat axes (say the Dane Axe) isnt very heavy or massive. Its power comes from the leverage not the mass. The blades are light and thin. Dont get confused about felling axes and all that rubbish on schlock fantasy novels. 

[Akhôrahil]

Really wish RQ did weapon types better - Pendragon is vastly superior here.

[gochie]

24 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Criticals all do max special damage + rolled damage modifier, and any extra damage from spells, ignoring armour.

I was talking about Special successes specifically, not crits.

By following the recipe of Specials get double damage rolls and Crits get max double damage rolls:

Crushing specials would be Weapon damage + STR bonus + STR bonus, and;

Crushing crits would be Weapon damage + max STR bonus + max STR bonus

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

Just now, Shiningbrow said:

Possibly... But it's not also unlike an axe. Very similar mechanics.

 I imagine the designers didn't want to complicate special damage types overly much. They’re broadish categories, which highlight the predominate aspect of the weapon damage. In the case of the axe it’s ability to cut/slash. Take into account that a Two handed great axe does a bit more damage as well 2d6+2. 
 

Crushing is very much the clubbing approach not the cutting approach. 

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

9 minutes ago, gochie said:

I was talking about Special successes specifically, not crits.

By following the recipe of Specials get double damage rolls and Crits get max double damage rolls:

Crushing specials would be Weapon damage + STR bonus + STR bonus, and;

Crushing crits would be Weapon damage + max STR bonus + max STR bonus

The special damage for crush is different then from slash and impale. It’s as I have written above:

• weapon damage + full damage bonus.

to which you add your normal rolled damage bonus afterwards. 

Edited March 6, 2020 by Paid a bod yn dwp

[Thaz]

1 minute ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

 I imagine the designers didn't want to complicate special damage types overly much. They’re broadish categories,

Indeed. One of the reason SO many Re-enactors and SCA types play RQ is because the rules are a pretty good reflection of what happens without being so crunchy as to be inelegant. But then it was written by and for them. I spot a LOT of commonality between the group memberships between the FB RQ group and various Brit Re-enactor groups....

 

[gochie]

Just now, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

The special damage for crush is different then from slash and impale. It’s as I have written above:

• weapon damage + full damage bonus.

to which you had your normal rolled damage bonus afterwards. 

Yes I know what the book says, I'm sharing what I think it SHOULD say (house-ruled).

[Akhôrahil]

1 minute ago, Thaz said:

Indeed. One of the reason SO many Re-enactors and SCA types play RQ is because the rules are a pretty good reflection of what happens without being so crunchy as to be inelegant. But then it was written by and for them. I spot a LOT of commonality between the group memberships between the FB RQ group and various Brit Re-enactor groups....

One fun thing about that is how it bakes in some oddities from SCA combat. For instance, note the massive amount of leg hits in the system - I think that's an SCA combat artifact more than a reflection of real-world research.

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

12 minutes ago, gochie said:

Yes I know what the book says, I'm sharing what I think it SHOULD say (house-ruled).

Apologies thought we were discussing the intention of the rules.

That being said damage bonus is rolled normally for all standard and special hits. (impale, slash or crush). RAW - It’s no different for crush. 
 

But I can see the argument for maximising your standard damage bonus as well with crush on criticals if you want more impact in your game.

Edited March 6, 2020 by Paid a bod yn dwp

[gochie]

1 minute ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

That being said damage bonus is rolled normally for all standard and special hits. (impale, slash or crush). RAW - It’s no different for crush. 

Huh? RAW crushing special hits deal Weapon damage + STR bonus + max STR bonus… Which is really strange, especially paired with the fact that critical hits don't deal anymore damage (just ignore armor).

Thus why I shared my fix above--slightly lower STR bonus on special hits and higher STR bonus on crits.