I'm (still) confused about Spirit Travel

[Pentallion]

The rules say you start in the Inner realm, that's the center.  And it says there's a current drawing you into the Inner Realm.  And it says going against that current gets a negative modifier.   But then it says it's easier to get sucked deeper and harder to get back out.  But if the Inner Realm is where the center is and that's where you begin and that's where you get back out, it's actually harder to go outward from the center and easy to get back out.

Or am I reading it wrong?  Interchanging outward and deeper and some of the other wordage is confusing me.

Edited August 15, 2018 by Pentallion

[Pentallion]

Surprised no one has commented on this.  Is my post just as confusing lol?

[HreshtIronBorne]

There is also mention of needing to make pilgrimages as part of the shamanic taboos section. How does this jive with any of the spirit travel rules? Does a character that ends up with some of these taboos just lose all their available adventure time? How do we calculate legitimate spiritual travel times and stuff?

[HreshtIronBorne]

There is also mention of needing to make pilgrimages as part of the shamanic taboos section. How does this jive with any of the spirit travel rules? Does a character that ends up with some of these taboos just lose all their available adventure time? How do we calculate legitimate spiritual travel times and stuff?

[PhilHibbs]

In RQ3, you started on the Frontier Region, and had to cross over to the Outer Region and then the Inner Region to find huge and dangerous spirits. Not sure why this has changed, or if it's intentional.

[soltakss]

3 hours ago, Pentallion said:

Surprised no one has commented on this.  Is my post just as confusing lol?

Some of us have been at Continuum 2108, having gaming fun.

[Pentallion]

To be more precise:

On page 372 it clearly defines the Inner Region as where shamans begin, then the Frontier Region, then the Outer Region.  (yes, I'm aware that's different than RQ3 but that's not where my confusion lies)

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Shamans, however, can perceive their own local Inner Region, and they define the look and feel of that area according to their traditions....Beyond that local area, if they explored further out, a Praxian would find ... This Frontier Region encloses their limited ancestral area.....And beyond that, there is yet another even larger Outer Region

Okay, so Inner, Frontier, then Outer.  Pg 374 reinforces this: 

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Most visitors to the Spirit World arrive in the Inner Region, its center, and venture outward

Here's where it gets confusing:

T

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Traveling to the Inner Regions of the Spirit World is easy; too easy, for the current of the Spirit World draws one inexorably towards its center. Often a vortex forms a gateway towards a deeper region. A shaman merely needs to “let go” and they are drawn deeper; the tricky part getting back out again.

Wait, What?  I start at the Inner Region, why would I travel to it?  On my way back home?  Then if all I need to do is "let go" to be drawn to the Inner Region, why is that the tricky part to "getting back out again"?  This leaves me confused.  Perhaps they mean "deeper" region as in Frontier or Outer regions.  This is not clear.  But then again, why would getting back out be tricky if I"m being pulled to the center, aka the Inner Region where I begin?

Then again the rules reassert that the shaman must travel outward to the Frontier or even the Outer Region.  He starts at the Inner Region.

The final paragraph doesn't help:

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Each region imposes a penalty to all attempts to leave, with the penalty increasing the deeper into the Spirit World the shaman goes. Each step closer to the center reduces
the shaman’s Spirit Travel skill by –10%. The current gets stronger towards its source, meaning it becomes easier to go inward but more difficult to maneuver or return against that current.

Which "deeper" do you guys mean here?  It seemed that "deeper"  means towards the center, but how do I calculate the penalty then?  The rules say there is Infinity somewhere out there beyond the Outer Region.  But the penalty gets greater the closer you are to the center, ie, the Inner Region.  So do I start with a penalty to leave the Inner Region of Infinity x 10%?  Or do I start at -20% to leave the Inner, -10% to leave the Frontier (towards the Outer) and then no penalty after that it just gets easier to get further away?

That seems unlikely to be correct.  What I think you're saying is it's your base Spirit Travel to leave the Inner.  Then -10% to leave the Frontier, -20% to leave the Outer, etc. getting more and more difficult to travel further from the Inner Region but easy to get pulled back.

But with the inconsistent verbage, I cannot be sure.

[Julian Lord]

On 7/20/2018 at 5:52 AM, Pentallion said:

The rules say you start in the Inner realm, that's the center.  And it says there's a current drawing you into the Inner Realm.  And it says going against that current gets a negative modifier.   But then it says it's easier to get sucked deeper and harder to get back out.  But if the Inner Realm is where the center is and that's where you begin and that's where you get back out, it's actually harder to go outward from the center and easy to get back out.

Or am I reading it wrong?  Interchanging outward and deeper and some of the other wordage is confusing me.

There are both game world and some philosophical reasons why this sort of description needs to be abstract, which is that not all spirit journeys occur in what magicians typically refer to as the spirit realm. Some such journeys, including some Initiation journeys, might seem to occur entirely within "the mundane".

The way I'd personally suggest to understand things would be to consider "the Inner realm" as being symbolically, metaphorically, even materially as "home" (the clan, the home cave, and so on), and "the Outer" as the place where the magic lives, which could be something roaming in the forest, the place where a certain Spirit lives in the spirit world, a holy location that one must travel to and then travel back from -- but also to understand that the danger in these quests resides in forgetting that the true goal is always to journey back home back to "the Inner Realm" with what you need to bring back there, including bringing yourself back, instead of becoming entranced by the Outer magic to the point of wishing to stay there and so being lost to your kin.

Try and work out first what that journey will seem like and where it leads to and back from, then give structure to it from the rules ; not the other way 'round.

-------

As for your most recent post, I'd agree that the terminology is confusing -- the word "centre" appears to be used a bit inconsistently.

There is one "Inner Region" ; but there can be either one or multiple "Outer Regions", each Region, having its own "centre" (the place where its particular magic resides and calls its "home"). But at the same time, the traveller's own "centre" is in the centre of his own Inner Region/Home.

Whichever Region you are in, you will be drawn to its centre -- so that if you are in the magic forest, you will be drawn into its heart, which is where you must go -- but then escaping back out from there to get back home will be more or less difficult depending on how big of a Region it is.

Simultaneously, the larger your Home Region is, which appears to be a function of the extent of your previous magical journeys (your own "mental geography"), the harder it will become for you to leave it and to travel to an outer Region.

The word "deeper" is a little ambiguous, but it seems to refer to a notion of "closer to the centre of each particular Region".

---------

But these are all still abstractions ; some spirit traditions only have one single Outer Region, which they define as "everything that is foreign to Home" ; others will conceive of multiple Outer Regions, each with its own spirits and magic places ; even an Inner Region can be a complex area with several Home places, only one of which is yours (the Home of the Rhino people is not the same Home as that of the Bison folk, though both are within the Inner Region of the Praxian Spirit World ; whereas the Home of the Monkey Men will be found in the Outer Region of the Praxians) -- but even so, in the beginning, a spirit traveller of the Bison people will know of Home and the Inner Region only the place which is the Home and the Centre of the Bison spirits ; learning that the whole of the Praxian spirit world is a vast and more complex Inner Region than just the Home of the Bison spirits where that traveller is from will be gradually discovered in the extent of his travels.

Perhaps these things could be usefully visualised for gaming purposes as being a little like Regions on a hex grid map, each having its Centre ; some regions could be as small as one hex ; others might be three or four hexes deep from the edge to that Centre.

Edited July 24, 2018 by Julian Lord

[Joerg]

There should be some kind of convection in the spirit realm anyway, currents leading away from the Surface world, and other currents leading down to it, possibly emerging into it. Attraction to certain places may be selective - some spirits get drawn there, others might be pushed away, just by the nature of a place.

The spirit world might be shifting, like clouds, and topography and topology might change even when traveling through it. There may be equivalents of riptides or ever stretching roads, and similar ways to escape those by taking off to the side rather than to continue to struggle against one - unless that struggle is the point of the journey.

There should be transitions from the spirit world not only into the mortal, surface realm, but also into the upper, lower or outer world, and into further realms.Finding or traversing these may require guides.

Not all of the spirit world will necessarily map to the linear flow of Time. Regions further away from the Surface World may be attuned to cyclical time (Godtime) rather than linear time, such as the residences of Great Spirits.

[Pentallion]

Can any of the designers give an example of spirit travel with the % modifiers?  It would really help clear things up for me.

[Pentallion]

So can someone explain how the spirit travel modifiers work with an example?  Inner to Frontier to Outer and back again?  Please.

[Sigtrygg]

I would argue that whoever wrote the bit that causes the confusion got the RQ3 version and the new version mixed up.

 

[David Scott]

On 7/23/2018 at 6:42 PM, HreshtIronBorne said:

There is also mention of needing to make pilgrimages as part of the shamanic taboos section. How does this jive with any of the spirit travel rules? Does a character that ends up with some of these taboos just lose all their available adventure time? How do we calculate legitimate spiritual travel times and stuff?

This might help with the pilgrimages:

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/7893-cant-find-any-info-on-these-new-shaman-pilgrimages/?tab=comments#comment-111376

Travel times will take place within the confines of a ceremony, so dusk 'till dawn on relevant holy days. I'd cast discorporate on the party and take them along (as per HeroQuest Glorantha). You can vary the time if needed.

[David Scott]

Because RQG just provides the bare bones of the spirit world, there's not actually much detail. For example the Inner World of the Praxians encompasses nearly all of their spirit world Geography (currently about 25 regions with 4 or so frontier and 6 or so outer, 5 beyond in the heroplane, and 1 on the edge of the Primal Plasma). A praxian shaman wanting to travel outside, for example from the Fireground (middle world monkey ruins) to the sky realm, would have to deal with the hostile spirits in this frontier region, then find the vortex to the sky realm. spirit travel would be needed to get into the fireground, then through the portal. The same would for the Stormgate (the raging storm), and the pathway to the Greener that leads to the Green Age Spike. You'd also need to roll to get back. All of these regions have their own encounters too, many are specific. The fireground has the Fire Guardians, Stormgate has the Storm Warriors, the Greener has the Changer folk, all of these spirits are dangerous, i'd say starting at 4D6 POW and hostile unless somehow affiliated - an Orlanthi shaman can likely pass Stormgate with little effort. The whole praxian spirit world is a map that overlays some of the real world.

Here for example is the spirit skin of a newly initiated Waha Bison Shaman. He has painted Eiritha at the centre of the his Great Herd (Inner World, animal spirits), within that lies his Clan Hearth (Inner World) with Bison-Eiritha at their Campfire (Mahome). Around the campfire are the clan ancestors (Summon Ancestor, Summon Specific Ancestor). Just outside the Great Herd is the Herd Guard (Inner World) where Waha patrols. In the distance he has seen the Spike (heroplane) but not the route to it. As he progresses and get more experienced, more will be filled in. He knows the other areas exist just not how they fit into his spirit world.

 

[David Scott]

3 hours ago, Pentallion said:

So can someone explain how the spirit travel modifiers work with an example?  Inner to Frontier to Outer and back again?  Please.

I'll try and do one later using some of the regions I've defined.

[David Scott]

Vishi Dunn is going to travel to the Sky World to contact the Twinstars to follow up on some troubling information.

The obvious place to begin his journey would be in the Monkey Ruins, where the Fireground is close by. This would mean setting up a camp in baboon territory and hoping that the group is either not spotted and if so can hold off an attack. This is very risky, so he plans to do it from within his home camp.

Before sunrise on Fireday, his assistants prepare the sacred ground by casting Sanctify 4 and building a huge fire in the centre. Everyone takes their place around it. Beginning a day long Worship ceremony to Waha, there is much chanting and dancing. At the height of the ceremony Vishi spends 5 magic points, collapsing into sleep he discorporates and appears inside the Great Herd at his Power Place.

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The Great Herd

When a Praxian nomad enters the spirit world of their own safe circles, they visit the Great herd. There is the Herd Protectress herself, a huge cow of whatever tribe the visitors are members of. She is surrounded by others less spectacular in size, but each with her own splendor. They are cows of the other great herds, as well as a variety of the visitors' kinship animal. So a bison tribe member would see a huge splendid bison, who is the Protectress, and around her black bison, long horn bison, ordinary bison, star bison and even a white bison, as well as a high llama, an impala, etc.

Surrounding those are thousands of the favorite herd beast, all contented and healthy, milling about with calves and bulls among them.

Meanwhile at the ceremony his huge high llama fetch appears and stands over his body. The dancing slows and the crowd begins to settle down into a different dance, high llama stalking, the men mimic a male high llama's lookout stance in the herd, whilst the women (who are lay members) continue to dance and drum just outside the edge of the sanctified circle.

Vishi's player has already stated that this is an extended discorporation and rolls a D6 to find out how long his discorporation lasts and rolls 2 hours.

His spirit high llama Attuk (a specific 4-legged high llama ancestor ) is waiting, he mounts up and sets off through the herd. Eiritha in the centre of the herd quickly fades and the edge of the herd approaches and he enters the Wide Plains.

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The Wide Plains

The Spirit world of the Praxian Tradition is contained in a vast wide plain. It is covered with rich grasses and herd food, cut with streams and with occasional hills. A great mountain lies to the distant south, and a vast green garden to the north. At the center is the Great Herd, the safest place for most Praxians.

From the Wide Plains he makes a Scan roll and  sees the Fireground in the distance.

It takes a hour of travel to reach the Fireground, so he must make an encounter roll. He rolls POWx3 and gets 82, failing so gets a hostile encounter. Rolling a 4, the spirit has 1D6, POW, 4 points. Spirit combat starts and the weak spirit is quickly dispatched. Finally he reaches the edge of the Fireground.

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Fireground

This eternally burning area is where Oakfed and later Polestar touched down, but any Praxian Fire spirit maybe found here. Only well prepared adventurers are able to survive here. If they wish to reach the Sky World, they will first need to pass the Fire Guardians and find the Sky Steps.

This is a different region, so to enter it he must make a Spirit travel roll, it's one step removed from the Inner realm so -10%, he rolls 38, succeeding. Now inside the burning Fireground to find his way to the Star Steps that lead to the Skyworld. Almost immediately the Fire Guardians appear. These are a pair of humanoid shaped burning forms, each holding a burning spear. They lunge, Vishi knows this is very dangerous, they are 6D6+6 POW & 3D6+6 CHA:

 POW 24, CHA 14, spirit combat 96%, 1D6+3 damage

 POW 26,  CHA 21, spirit combat 104%, 2D6+3 damage

So he rolls his Dance to augment his Spirit Dance rolling 14, a success, adding 20% on to his Spirit Dance of 90%, so 115% - 50 for the spirits magic points, 65%. he rolls a 03, a critical, avoiding the encounter and staying in the Spirit World.

His 2 hours are up, he's had 1 spirit travel roll and one planned encounter. He now spends 1 magic point to extend his declared extended Discorporation and rolls a D6, for 5 extra hours. His next spirit travel roll is to find the Star Steps into the Sky World. He augments his Spirit Travel with his Spirit lore, rolls 30, succeeding, bringing his spirit travel to 120%, leaving this region is -20 as it's 2 steps removed from the inner realm  so 100%. He searches amongst the burning land, taking an hour to locate the steps.

The edge of the sky dome now rises up in front of him. His high llama jumps onto it and fails his jump roll with 97. Vishi is thrown off and the Llama disappears back to his Power Place. As planned, Vishi now begins an hour long ritual to Summon Lucky Star, an important patron of the Blue Llama clan. Spending 20 of his stored magic points, a tiny blue floating stars appear and he asks them to lead him to the Twin Stars. Following the stars he begins to traverse the edge of the Sky Dome. After an hour a POW x1 roll is needed to avoid an encounter in this outer region, rolling 98, a fumble! A hostile spirit encounter, I've added 25% to the roll to reflect the fumble, 68+25=93, 5D6+6 POW & 3D6+6 APP

POW 24, CHA 17, spirit combat 120%, 2D6+3 damage.

Clearly a Sky Guardian (place Gods War Phoenix figure on table). Vishi is currently

POW 18, CHA 15, spirit combat 95%, 1D6+3 +3 (shaman) +6 (Spirit Mastery 2) = 1D6+12 damage.

Vishi augments his spirit combat with his Death rune rolling 88, just a success, 90+20=110.

Round 1 Guardian 54, success,  Vishi 32, success, tie.

Round 2 Guardian 47, success,  Vishi 95, success, tie.

Round 3 Guardian 73, success,  Vishi 85, success, tie.

Round 5 Guardian 67, success,  Vishi 37, success, tie.

Round 6 Guardian 68, success,  Vishi 40, success, tie.

Round 7 Guardian 09, special,  Vishi 78, success, Guardian wins, 5 special doubled +3= 13, Vishi has 5 mp left. (not corporeal so no extra damage)

Round 8 Guardian 00, fumble,  Vishi 78, success, Vishi wins, 3+12= 15, Guardian has 3 mp left. Fumble roll,  Combatant’s energies become unfocused; lose 1D6 magic points = 6. Guardian has 0 mp left.

Vishi forces it to teach a sky based spirit magic and asks for a new sky spirit magic spell (to be determined later)

Another hour passes. Vishi has spent 5 hours in the spirit world. He's got an hour left to find the Twinstars or has to make a POW x 4 (90%) to avoid a d6 hit points loss, he's also down to 5 mp and they don't regenerate. He decides to return and reach the Sky World another way, using Lucky Star to reach the Sky World directly. He attempts his Spirit Dance to return to his body, succeeding on a 38.

He stands up slightly disorientated next to the still roaring fire. A rain of arrows falls around him. A Sable attack is in progress. Clearly he was on to something.

(all rolls are random)

Edited August 16, 2018 by David Scott

[jajagappa]

On ‎8‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 6:51 AM, David Scott said:

Here for example is the spirit skin of a newly initiated Waha Bison Shaman. He has painted Eiritha at the centre of the his Great Herd (Inner World, animal spirits), within that lies his Clan Hearth (Inner World) with Bison-Eiritha at their Campfire (Mahome). Around the campfire are the clan ancestors (Summon Ancestor, Summon Specific Ancestor). Just outside the Great Herd is the Herd Guard (Inner World) where Waha patrols. In the distance he has seen the Spike (heroplane) but not the route to it. As he progresses and get more experienced, more will be filled in. He knows the other areas exist just not how they fit into his spirit world.

I really like this idea of the shaman creating his personal spirit world map!  The nice thing with this is that each shaman can have a map that is somewhat distinct and different, yet there is also an overlapping consistency.

21 hours ago, David Scott said:

The edge of the sky dome now rises up in front of him. His high llama jumps onto it and fails his jump roll with 97. Vishi is thrown off and the Llama disappears back to his Power Place. As planned, Vishi now begins an hour long ritual to Summon Lucky Star, an important patron of the Blue Llama clan.

Shamanic quests always seemed like good candidates for SoloQuests.  However, one of the things I like with the new RQG rules is that it should be feasible to run journeys onto the Spirit Plane with ordinary non-shamanic characters guided by a shaman.  I ran a quest like that in my HQG Orlmarth campaign and it was a lot of fun (and weirdly different).

[David Scott]

14 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I really like this idea of the shaman creating his personal spirit world map!  The nice thing with this is that each shaman can have a map that is somewhat distinct and different, yet there is also an overlapping consistency.

This is also based on real world shamanism, you can see maps often on drums, but also in Dreamtime paintings and other media.. I also teach a course in this called shamanic landscapes where participants explore their own shamanic landscape and make a map, often in the form of collage or painting. Praxian shaman have two types of maps, the personal one seen here, and another “landscape” form. The landscape one covers the Middle World and is in the form of string maps with carved fetishes tied into it.

 I’ll see if I can find them.

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Shamanic quests always seemed like good candidates for SoloQuests.  However, one of the things I like with the new RQG rules is that it should be feasible to run journeys onto the Spirit Plane with ordinary non-shamanic characters guided by a shaman.  I ran a quest like that in my HQG Orlmarth campaign and it was a lot of fun (and weirdly different).

That was actually my problem with this, it was a soloquest. Currently the RQG shamanism rules don’t allow for this - discorporatation is a “self” only spell. However this is easily remidied by new shamanic abilities. The ones in the rules aren’t concise, and there’s scope for more. 

[jajagappa]

19 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Currently the RQG shamanism rules don’t allow for this - discorporatation is a “self” only spell.

I'd just do a shaman-led ritual within a protective circle where the PC's consume some substance (hazia, black elf dust, etc.) that allows Discorporation.  The PC's bodies are vulnerable of course since they have no fetch.  Once discorporate, they are led by the shaman to whatever the common starting point is.  The shaman leads the Spirit Travel, but the PC's must be able to use their Spirit Combat.  I've allowed them to carry certain spirit world related objects into the Spirit Plane to help (e.g. Sword Grass transforms into 'swords' in the Spirit World that can inflict spirit combat damage).

[Joerg]

4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I'd just do a shaman-led ritual within a protective circle where the PC's consume some substance (hazia, black elf dust, etc.) that allows Discorporation.  The PC's bodies are vulnerable of course since they have no fetch.  Once discorporate, they are led by the shaman to whatever the common starting point is.  The shaman leads the Spirit Travel, but the PC's must be able to use their Spirit Combat.  I've allowed them to carry certain spirit world related objects into the Spirit Plane to help (e.g. Sword Grass transforms into 'swords' in the Spirit World that can inflict spirit combat damage).

There is also the possibility that people don't travel the spirit world in their normal shape, but that they assume the shape of a totem instead. (Think avatars in video-games.) This other shape will likely have natural attack forms which will be simulated by the Spirit Combat skill.

[jajagappa]

Just now, Joerg said:

There is also the possibility that people don't travel the spirit world in their normal shape, but that they assume the shape of a totem instead. (Think avatars in video-games.) This other shape will likely have natural attack forms which will be simulated by the Spirit Combat skill. 

Yes, could definitely see that.  Could be fun to have players narrate what form/shape their characters have taken.  PC's from the Red Cow clan might take the form of red cows/bulls.  Or a bull-headed man or even man-headed bull (ala the old Assyrian gates).  Or maybe a Humakti is a free-floating sword.  Ernaldans might be varied types of snakes or like snake mothers.  Lot of interesting possibilities - but I'm sure that whatever they choose the first time that they will be largely locked into that form in subsequent Spirit Plane ventures.

[David Scott]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

There is also the possibility that people don't travel the spirit world in their normal shape, but that they assume the shape of a totem instead. (Think avatars in video-games.) This other shape will likely have natural attack forms which will be simulated by the Spirit Combat skill.

If you are a normal person, then I don’t think you have any control over this, you have no shamanic skills. However if your cult is animistic, yinkin, Basmol, Storm Bull, then maybe. If you’ve any transform magic then yes I’d have that come into play with a beast rune of at least 80%. In real world animism/shamanism shape changing is an experience thing. Just because you have a totem/helper/guardian spirit doesn’t mean you can take its form. But some can with experience. I’d rather have non-shamanic adventurers be “fish out of water” in the spirit world than give them stuff that shamanic characters have to earn.

[Pentallion]

Thank you David.  It's -10% to enter each region the further you get from the Inner.  That clears everything up and your fantastic example is an inspiration.

[David Scott]

Here are other spirit maps made by Praxian shamans. These are more public and relate to the geography of prax and the Wastes. They serve to guide, warn and teach of the nature of the land. Tied in to all are small fetishes in the form of rocks, crystals and bone carved animals

Spirit paths around the long dry showing where to find spirits. Waha cult, Sunter bison tribe. (only part of Zola Fel is represented here, Pavis is represented by Paragua's grazing)

 

example of fetishes: Copper Caves , Paragua 

Spirit paths around the Bison Plains near Dagori Inkarth showning where to find spirits. Shaman, Sunter bison tribe.

example of fetishes: Sable Hearth , Zong meeting place 

Spirit paths showing where to find spirits around the river of cradles. Thirstless spirit society of Sunter bison tribe.

 

example of fetishes: Heart of Zola Fel , High Llama watering 

Edited August 18, 2018 by David Scott

[JohannesH]

A few questions:

Is using Discorporate rune spell the only way how an assistant shaman can get in to the Spirit World before becoming a shaman?

Also:

What I understood from what was talked above, the distances are relative in the Spirit World, so you can travel far from your physical location. But it says in the description of the Discorporate spell that:

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..The difficulty of maintaining the separation is directly proportional to the distance between spirit and body, costing 1 further Rune point per 5 kilometers of distance. Thus, the caster must stack 2 Rune points to be able to travel more than 5 kilometers from their body...

How is the physical world related to the Spirit Worlds geographically? Distances do matter? Is it not possible to visit, let's say, from Prax to Sartar traveling in the Spirit world?

Also, if I understand correctly, different locations have different spirits. If my Praxian shaman starts his trip in the Snake Pipe Hollow, it is most likely full of evil spirits, but are those spirits already waiting in the Waha's Camp where I start?