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I'm (still) confused about Spirit Travel


Pentallion

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3 hours ago, JohannesH said:

Is using Discorporate rune spell the only way how an assistant shaman can get in to the Spirit World before becoming a shaman?

Yes, although some shaman have shamanic abilities to bring others along. The RQG core spirit rules have plenty of room for expansion. There’s room for more shamanic abilities and even culturally specific ones. 

3 hours ago, JohannesH said:

How is the physical world related to the Spirit Worlds geographically?

The spirit world overlays the middle world. But it’s not one to one relationship and is variable

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Distances do matter?

Yes and no. The same applies to size. If it’s the same spirit region, no problem. 

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Is it not possible to visit, let's say, from Prax to Sartar traveling in the Spirit world?

Yes of course, you just have to get past the darkness spirits in Dagori Inkarth safely, and the troll shaman and the troll spirits. Or go over the mountains, first befriending the mountain spirits and the wind spirits. There are likely rituals to help you on your way known by some spirit societies. Some like the spirit path over the Stormwalk mountains, are straightforward, you just have to stand up next to the mountain and chop it down with the edge of your hand... just make sure you’ve done the preparation first. Don’t forget that when you finally arrive in Sartar, you don’t have your body. 

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Also, if I understand correctly, different locations have different spirits. If my Praxian shaman starts his trip in the Snake Pipe Hollow, it is most likely full of evil spirits, but are those spirits already waiting in the Waha's Camp where I start?

Unless he has his herd with him he doesn’t have the luxury of starting at home camp. He enters the spirit world of snakepipe hollow, not the Praxian plains. He’d better be very prepared for what’s there and don’t forget he leaves his body behind. Most spirits will be neutral, but with more chaos and disease spirits. I really wouldn’t want to meet the “hands” on the spirit plane.

There are no hard and fast rules about the spirit plane, that’s one of its properties, it’s variable. 

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Sounds a bit like the map of 'shortcuts' through the never never that Harry Dresden inherits in the Dresden Files books. Just because they overcome some obstacles e.g. Immense distance doesn't mean that 'shortcuts' won't introduce others, e.g. Time dilation, fluid other world battle lines, toll-keepers who hold grudges or insist on increasingly difficult favours, malevolent hunting entities noticing trails being frequented more often,  'environmental' hazards that change over time.

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5 hours ago, JohannesH said:

Is using Discorporate rune spell the only way how an assistant shaman can get in to the Spirit World before becoming a shaman?

It's not the only way in my games! 😉

There are "portals" into the Spirit World - which of course are very dangerous to those not prepared.  These are places where the "border" is very, very thin and a dreaming soul might cross over.  As my players know, there are some very dangerous "rabbit holes".

Also I've used various herbs/drugs to induce a discorporate state (see RQG Bestiary p.199 - one of the effects of hazia can be discorporation).  Again, best if accompanied by a shaman who can guide the travel and help ensure they are "outfitted" in ways that can help them fight or escape.

Then there may well be sorcerous spells that allow a sorcerer to separate his dreaming self and travel the Spirit World reflection, perhaps hunting for the dreams of others or certain select spirits.

And probably more ways.

6 hours ago, JohannesH said:

How is the physical world related to the Spirit Worlds geographically? Distances do matter? 

Some parts map, some don't.  Some are greatly distorted, some "bend" upon each other because they are "related" or "connected" in some capacity.  In my Orlmarth campaign, the Guardian Woods and most of its locations exist in both mundane and Spirit World.  But in the Spirit World, there are strange trails which twist through the Guardian Woods.  Some of those you must walk backwards along in order to move forward, or move away in order to move into.  A Lunar witch connected one place at the border of the Guardian Woods with the Black Swamps of the Spirit World of Darjiin, effectively creating a "tunnel" by which hostile entities and spirits could attack the Guardian Woods.  Places, such as the Assembly of Small Spirits, only exist in the Spirit World, but those spirits can be drawn into varied locations within the Guardian Woods.  Places such as steads generally do not exist in the Spirit World. 

If you think more of a dreamscape which seems familiar, but isn't, and sometimes gets odd places, buildings, mountains, or roads (maybe memories of places of the past or far-away), then you'll have some sense of the Spirit World.

 

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On 8/16/2018 at 10:13 AM, David Scott said:

Vishi Dunn is going to travel to the Sky World to contact the Twinstars to follow up on some troubling information.

This is a wonderful example, but... how in the world does a newb like myself come up with things like this? Apart from spending hours and hours sifting the Guide and Stafford Library and whatnot. Can we expect a Spirit World supplement at some vague point which would describe how to set this up for our players?

I've got several shaman-track adventurers in my playgroup who would be very eager to do this.

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2 hours ago, Crel said:

how in the world does a newb like myself come up with things like this?

Firstly it's based on the structure already given in the Core Rules for travelling in the Spirit World . I used the finding a spirit section (page 375) and Extended discorporation (page 376) as he was wanting to meet the Twinstars. It's simple formula:

What is the purpose of the journey to the spirit world?

State if going extended

Starting ritual (others cast helpful magic like Axis Mundi)

discorporate - spend 5 mps

Time 1D6 hours

One Spirit Travel roll (may use to move into a new region) 

One  planned Encounter (if needed)

each hour, hostile spirit roll.

Extension - spend 1 mp

Time +1D6 hours

One Spirit Travel roll (may use to move into a new region) 

One  planned Encounter  (if needed)

each hour, hostile spirit roll.

return

Second make sure you've read the Spirit World chapter thoroughly and looked at the art.

Thirdly look at the map and see what might be nearby in the Middle world that would be a fun add in to the spirit world

Finally, read about some real world shamanic journeying and look at related art for inspiration. Be aware that in RW shamanism the spirit world of the real world is called the Middle World. In Glorantha, the real world of Glorantha is called the Middle World and the spirit world is called just that. In RW shamanism the Spirit World refers to all spirit worlds (like the Upper, Middle and Lower). In Glorantha it blurs the Upper and Lower with the Under and Sky worlds.

These links are to shamanic practices that I consider not mixed in with other spiritual work (shamanism has become a catchall word for many practices that have little to do with it or are tenuous at least).

Simple examples: https://www.shamanlinks.net/blog/shamanic-journey-examples/

Cave & Cosmos by Michael Harner: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B008IS24GY/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

Lots of Huitchol yarn paintings give a sense of the spirit world. This one could easily represent a map from prax through Dagori Inkarth to Sartar:

3131-bl6-huichol-yarn-paintings

 

This one is a map of the spirits bordering delicti's marsh

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huichol#/media/File:Arte_del_Pueblo_Huichol.jpg

Also Dreamtime art, stuff like this is great inspiration for Glorantha spirit adventures:

https://japingkaaboriginalart.com/aboriginal-dreamtime-stories-overview/

 

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, jajagappa said:

It's not the only way in my games! 😉

There are "portals" into the Spirit World - which of course are very dangerous to those not prepared.  These are places where the "border" is very, very thin and a dreaming soul might cross over.  As my players know, there are some very dangerous "rabbit holes".

Also I've used various herbs/drugs to induce a discorporate state (see RQG Bestiary p.199 - one of the effects of hazia can be discorporation).  Again, best if accompanied by a shaman who can guide the travel and help ensure they are "outfitted" in ways that can help them fight or escape.

Then there may well be sorcerous spells that allow a sorcerer to separate his dreaming self and travel the Spirit World reflection, perhaps hunting for the dreams of others or certain select spirits.

 

Interesting points. I will give your ideas to my GM.

Kloster

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17 hours ago, Crel said:

how in the world does a newb like myself come up with things like this?

The first venture I ran into the Spirit Plane came out of these elements:  the Lunar based in the Nymie Valley had a witch ally; the Orlmarth Harvest festival was attacked by some Darkness-related spirit "serpents"; the Guardian Woods have a proximity to the Spirit Plane.

Which led to a plot:  the witch summoned a Spirit Plane ally (a vough - a malignant water nymph) to disrupt the Guardian Woods.  The shaman Joseph Greenbeak, who was wounded by the Darkness-related "serpents", had uncovered something of the plot and needed help to defeat this threat on the Spirit Plane.

To run that I needed to figure out the following:

1) how to get non-shaman PC's into, through, and out of the Spirit Plane. To go in, they had to find White Dust Mushrooms to cause Discorporation.  Joseph could then guide them at various points, or tell them what to follow/where to go.  To get back out, they had to get the thorns of the Green Spot Tanglebush.  These could be carried by their spirits into the Spirit World, and they could jab their spirit bodies with them to follow the Trail of Pain back to the body.

2) a map.  Take mundane world Guardian Woods, identify common places (i.e. places clearly inhabited by nymphs or other spirits), remove extraneous places, add in Spirit Paths including those that might lead deeper into the Spirit Plane or to areas of elemental concentration (e.g. Storm King's Hall or Kero Fin), add in someplace where they might bargain with friendly spirits (Assembly of Small Spirits) and dangerous obstacles.  Besides what @David Scott noted above regarding Spirit Plane in RQG, some good points on Spirits in RQG Bestiary.

3) a goal.  In my case the foe, a vough, and her minions (brollachans).  RQG Bestiary has both of those, but you could have a hostile nymph or guardian spirit, a demon or "bad" wyter, or some breeding ground of disease spirits, etc.  The goal could be a spirit place to learn something (e.g. The Twin Stars tent, which might be in the Sky, the Underworld, or in the midst of the Moongrass Plain, or wherever else you think appropriate).

To fight off hostile spirits, use:  Spirit Combat, magic, or special weapons for the Spirit World (mine carried Sword grass, "but with the root, not just the blade, else you find mighty painful", which are small grasses in the mundane world, but look like regular sword, albeit green, in the Spirit World and can be wielded like swords and do damage to spirits).

To move through, use:  Spirit Travel (quick jumps) or traverse it using map and Perception skills (perhaps with some negative modifier or opposed roll for the environment).  But may be easy to get sucked into a spirit vortex and end up "far away".

It doesn't need to be any more complicated than that.  And there's lots of ideas to draw on from real-world shamanic "maps", or use "dreamscapes" that change and shift.  Make things weird and colorful, yet perhaps also "out of focus" or with areas that cannot quite be seen.  Make odd connections - the Bone Woman Trail leads in one direction to the Earth Woman's Hut, and in the other to the Speaking Bones.  But to get to the latter you must cross pass beyond the Northern Guardians (two stone rock spirits) and the barren land of Zooming Hate Master.  Avoiding the vough's swamp required my players to enter the Deep Home of Heavy Earth.  Make perceptions strong - bright, vivid coloration, or strange grey landscapes, etc.

A couple pictures from my spirit landscape include: the vough's swamp and the Black Water Gate (which leads to both the Lunar witch and the land of Darjiini swamp spirits); the Assembly of Small spirits; the Deep Home of Heavy Earth; and the Silver Woods (which are always close to the mortal world and where lost memories and forgotten thoughts go before they die).

Hope some of these thoughts help.

 

SwampoftheVough.GIF

Assembly Of Small Spirits-2.GIF

HeavyEarthDeepHome.JPG

SilverWoods-Rabbit.gif

Edited by jajagappa
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