Multi-target Multimissile?

[Simon Hallett]

Just out of interest, my group has always played that you cannot split multimissile across multiple targets.

I take it that is the general consensus? I had a trawl through the fora, but could not spot this specific query.

It is probably just me being thick that I cannot see this explicitly in the text.

I noted a Rune spell that did make the missiles independently targetable, (I think on Simon Phipp's website), but I wasn't sure if that was from a canon source.

Cheers.

[jajagappa]

11 minutes ago, Simon Hallett said:

my group has always played that you cannot split multimissile across multiple targets.

I take it that is the general consensus? I had a trawl through the fora, but could not spot this specific query.

That is how I've always played at.  I think this is the important point:  creates a magical missile at the instant the original is launched or fired

The implication is that the spell is cast upon the missile, and since the magical missile appears at the instance of launching, it can only ever follow the trajectory of the original.

[Simon Hallett]

Thanks for that...

2 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

That is how I've always played at.  I think this is the important point:  creates a magical missile at the instant the original is launched or fired

The implication is that the spell is cast upon the missile, and since the magical missile appears at the instance of launching, it can only ever follow the trajectory of the original.

... that all makes perfect sense.

Always pays to read carefully!

The random locations on the target (rather than all striking the same place despite a similar trajectory) can presumably be accounted for by your enemy dancing about as he gets filled full of arrows! 

[jps]

I’ve always played it ttat way too but now you ‘re mentionning it, multimissile requires separate rolls, one for each missile so.... a case could be raised.

[Atgxtg]

3 minutes ago, jps said:

I’ve always played it ttat way too but now you ‘re mentionning it, multimissile requires separate rolls, one for each missile so.... a case could be raised.

I think that's just because while they all have the same trajectory, not all the shots will hit. Kinda like firing a bunch of rockets at once. I wonder if Chaosium ever addressed this is Wryms Footnotes or some such. Being able to split targets would make MM an ever better spell that it is now, and that's saying something. On a per point basis it might just be the biggest damage spell in the game. 

[Julian Lord]

In my SuperRuneQuest games back in the day, I was prepared for any player attempting it, but sadly none of them ever did.

I had -50% attack skill penalty per extra target generally (though I also had some more complicated mass combat stuff for some more extreme situations), but in "normal" RQ that could be re-interpreted as "halve attack % for every extra target" -- so Multimissile 2 against three targets : Attack % /4 against each. Attack % /8 against 4, and so on.

Actual Mass Combat needs a more solid rules base, but that works well as a rule of thumb for most RPG situations.

Edited July 20, 2018 by Julian Lord

[MJ Sadique]

6 hours ago, Simon Hallett said:

It is probably just me being thick that I cannot see this explicitly in the text.

Not really,

The Multimissile doesn't forbade the fact that you can shoot at multiple target. Personally, I consider the spell working like a repeating weapon which could shoot multiple target if the shooter weapon move while shooting (Like rambo with a 12.7 machine gun).

But You don't need to house rules because Combat / Shooting into Melee chapter (RQ p214) already cover this case : packed enemies can be considered as one "big" target but enemies in a loose skirmish line must be targeted individually. And you get a +5% bonus by extra target when shooting at a packed group of minotaurs (or ducks).

It's all to the master's choice to tell if it's a pack of targets sitting_ducks or not ...

[10baseT]

We always played it had to be the same target. Since the magic missile appears the instant the original missile is fired... ie, the shooter says i have one missile and i am shooting at X. He shoots, then the magic missile kicks in and those extra missiles then target X. So, only 1 target.

[Skovari]

14 minutes ago, 10baseT said:

We always played it had to be the same target. Since the magic missile appears the instant the original missile is fired... ie, the shooter says i have one missile and i am shooting at X. He shoots, then the magic missile kicks in and those extra missiles then target X. So, only 1 target.

Exactly how we did it.  The missile becomes multiple in the air on the way to the thing you targeted.

[Atgxtg]

9 hours ago, Julian Lord said:

In my SuperRuneQuest games back in the day, I was prepared for any player attempting it, but sadly none of them ever did.

Thinking about it, I wonder if it would be considered "splitting attacks.". 

 

[g33k]

The archer is making a singular attempt to aim, is making a singular release.

The ARROW gets multi'ed, but only as per the (singular) intent of the archer.

I don't recall ever getting into the metaphysics of it (everyone knew that the Aldryami were the baddest-assed archers, so nobody specialized another species; and the main GM was gaga for Mostali, so...), but I personally have always envisioned it as a bit of a butterfly-effect:  slightly-different timing, spacing, etc all lead to slightly-different trajectories (and thus different hit-locations).  It's a MULTI missile, after all, they aren't multiphasic co-existent in the same space...

I honestly do not recall if it was explained this way to me by the then-GM, or if it's my own private delusion conception...

Edited July 21, 2018 by g33k

[styopa]

I'd assume they're all just one target as it's been described here, BUT...I guess I wouldn't be averse to figuring out if a player wanted to 'spray' a multimissle 4 or whatever like a tommy gun, sounds like a clever usage but it would be pretty wasteful and likely only useful in very narrow circumstances....

 

[Atgxtg]

8 hours ago, styopa said:

I'd assume they're all just one target as it's been described here, BUT...I guess I wouldn't be averse to figuring out if a player wanted to 'spray' a multimissle 4 or whatever like a tommy gun, sounds like a clever usage but it would be pretty wasteful and likely only useful in very narrow circumstances....

 

Be great if you were outnumbered. A group of adventures could each do a 4 point MM and have a great opening volley. I still believe that it's supposed to be one target, but the concept in intriguing. In RQ3 there were rules for firing into groups and melee, so it could be possible to hit the wrong target, if they were in a group. But if you were shooting at a group of enemies you probably wouldn't mind if one or two of the shots stayed off and hit someone else. 

[7Tigers]

Simon Bray illustration for Multi-Missile spell in Openquest 2:

https://www.deviantart.com/blackyinkin/art/The-Huntress-406943913

[jps]

Nice

[Atgxtg]

41 minutes ago, jps said:

Nice

If it worked. Not so nice if it doesn't and she ends up as monster chow. BTW, what the hell is that thing?

[10baseT]

14 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

so it could be possible to hit the wrong target, if they were in a group. But if you were shooting at a group of enemies you probably wouldn't mind if one or two of the shots stayed off and hit someone else. 

That's one thing our group did (regardless of multimissile). We also used figures so it was easy to see. If a missile missed, we rolled hit location and that determined the general area of the miss (for example, if the head was rolled, the miss would be a higher trajectory. If the leg, the miss could hit the ground or was a lower trajectory). Then I as the GM would draw a line of trajectory based on the info at hand. If one was in that trajectory, one was then hit... and there could be other variables to determine actual hit. (shooting into a crowd gives a greater chance of a general hit on an opposing force). Now if multimissile were used and i missed, i would look at somewhat as if i missed with a shotgun for lack of better words. I have a better chance of  hitting someone if there bunched up (i'd still draw my trajectories though).

[styopa]

22 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Be great if you were outnumbered. A group of adventures could each do a 4 point MM and have a great opening volley. I still believe that it's supposed to be one target, but the concept in intriguing. In RQ3 there were rules for firing into groups and melee, so it could be possible to hit the wrong target, if they were in a group. But if you were shooting at a group of enemies you probably wouldn't mind if one or two of the shots stayed off and hit someone else. 

Simple quick rule for 'spray and pray': you can spray multimissile to hit multiple targets.  Take the number of targets, +1.  Randomize the multimissile strikes across this number of targets (if it 'targets' the +1, then that missile misses everyone).  Your to-hit for each missile is -20% but +5% per body, per the standard rules for firing into a crowd.  

Sort of the RQ3 'sweep attack' variation?

[Atgxtg]

41 minutes ago, styopa said:

Simple quick rule for 'spray and pray': you can spray multimissile to hit multiple targets.  Take the number of targets, +1.  Randomize the multimissile strikes across this number of targets (if it 'targets' the +1, then that missile misses everyone).  Your to-hit for each missile is -20% but +5% per body, per the standard rules for firing into a crowd.  

Sort of the RQ3 'sweep attack' variation?

Give me a big enough POW storing crystal and a Heavy Crossbow and I got a room broom. 😁

[Joerg]

There is an easy way to hit multiple targets with a Multimissile - treat it as shooting into a melee if you have any excuse to do so.

[styopa]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

There is an easy way to hit multiple targets with a Multimissile - treat it as shooting into a melee if you have any excuse to do so.

But then you're asserting a level of control of those missiles that was categorically denied earlier in this thread?  If you can aim each one, just like a more-rapid firing missile weapon, that's something pretty different than the magical shotgun described above.

[Joerg]

Basically, if an archer shoots into a group of moving individuals at some distance, the result is little different from shooting into a melee. You don't really compensate for the random movement of the single target, but take your chance to hit someone at the point you are aiming at at the moment of release.

If a bundle of magically created missiles follows your first missile, these missiles obviously don't all do the perfect Robin Hood shot splitting the original missile, but spread about in the target region, making you roll for each of the extra missiles.

I don't quite see why one of your friends has to be in the bunch of moving targets to get the same effect you get for shooting into a melee. People milling about unpredictably means that your shot sent off with sniper accuracy has a random chance of hitting a random target in that position. Hitting a target making unpredictable moves (dodging) is fairly impossible at medium distance.

 

One thing I miss from the projectile rules is the delay between releasing your missile and impact. If shooting your bow at maximum military range, a somewhat trained archer will at least have another arrow halfway to the target and a third one on the string by the time the first arrow impacts somewhere in the vicinity of the original target position, subject to your accuracy and small but cumulative unforeseeable interactions like erratic winds.

But then, the rules have been playtested by Claudia, Jeff's wife, who has all those personal experiences from archery, too.

[Atgxtg]

56 minutes ago, styopa said:

But then you're asserting a level of control of those missiles that was categorically denied earlier in this thread?  If you can aim each one, just like a more-rapid firing missile weapon, that's something pretty different than the magical shotgun described above.

It's just that, in RQ3, there is a rule that if you shoot into melee your shot hits a random combatant in the melee. of targets is random. So if you had an ally facing off against three Broo, then you'd roll 1D4 to see who got hit. This reflected that combatants are not standing still and someone could step into the flight path of the arrow. Under those circumstances, it's possible for stray shots to hit different targets on the D4, because they are all close together. 

It never happened in our games, mostly because of the risk of skewering an ally .

[Simon Hallett]

On ‎7‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 11:18 PM, MJ Sadique said:

Not really,

The Multimissile doesn't forbade the fact that you can shoot at multiple target. Personally, I consider the spell working like a repeating weapon which could shoot multiple target if the shooter weapon move while shooting (Like rambo with a 12.7 machine gun).

But You don't need to house rules because Combat / Shooting into Melee chapter (RQ p214) already cover this case : packed enemies can be considered as one "big" target but enemies in a loose skirmish line must be targeted individually. And you get a +5% bonus by extra target when shooting at a packed group of minotaurs (or ducks).

It's all to the master's choice to tell if it's a pack of targets sitting_ducks or not ...

Thanks for all the responses so far guys.

I will generally stick with the single target/person rule, multimissile acting a bit like a three round burst from an assault rifle.

When my poor PCs are horribly outnumbered  by a tight packed crowd of monstrosities, I will let them use a 'shoot into combat' type rule.

...and if one of my players is sufficiently entertaining, I might let them get away with 'doing a Rambo' in full auto mode every once in a while!

Cheers.

[soltakss]

On 7/22/2018 at 6:05 PM, Atgxtg said:

BTW, what the hell is that thing?

It looks like a human female fighter to me.