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Kurt Wiegel reviews BRP on Yoy Tube

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I don't think there's anything wrong with ads/disads, per se. I don't think there's anything particularly right with them, either.

I confess to being prejudiced in the way I think about gaming. One of the arguments I was once confronted with as to why ads/disads were so important was "what if your player wants his character to have a friend in city hall? What rules do you have from preventing him from being able to get away with just anything because of that?" Well... I do think that a mature group of players ought to be able to deal with something like that, and work out the thing in a fair manner to which everyone agrees, without having to have a whole set of official rules on it. But then, I won't play with anything but a mature group of players.

My real gripe (even though I know the review was actually a positive one) is the use of the word "dated." To me, "dated" means something that had value (or was at least acceptable) in the past, but no longer does.

Knocking BRP for not having ads/disads is like saying "Casablanca" would be a great movie if it was only in color. Just ignorant, to me.

Anyway, I'm gettin' off my soapbox now.

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To me, using terms like "dated" and "modern" really don't apply too

well in RPGs. Especially when people call a system "dated" when it

contains the same elements those same people cite as representative

of "modern" games.

Looking at the laundry list of elements most people use to describe

a game as "modern" - point buy systems, unified die mechanic, levels

of success that actually influence results, adv/disadv system, hero/drama

points that actually can change narrative - Victory Games' James Bond 007

had pretty much all of those. And a table which makes many people claim

it is "dated". Not bad for a 25 year old game.

-V

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I don't think there's anything wrong with ads/disads, per se. I don't think there's anything particularly right with them, either.

I confess to being prejudiced in the way I think about gaming. One of the arguments I was once confronted with as to why ads/disads were so important was "what if your player wants his character to have a friend in city hall? What rules do you have from preventing him from being able to get away with just anything because of that?" Well... I do think that a mature group of players ought to be able to deal with something like that, and work out the thing in a fair manner to which everyone agrees, without having to have a whole set of official rules on it. But then, I won't play with anything but a mature group of players.

This same argument can be made against character generation systems in general. After all, if a group is mature they should be able to just write down the attributes and skills that fit their character concept without having to use dice to do so or work from a point budget, right?

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All this talk of modernity is funny considering the fact that much of the time I visit RPGNOW.COM there's a "new" game that's trying to be just like the original D&D or AD&D, using a system that's similar but more "streamlined". Why not advertise BRP as THE system to stand the test of time. It's SO perfect that the system, itself, never needed to be completely overhauled--like certain other big name ones that are trying to pass themselves off as being "modernized".

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In Stormbringer 1 - 4 , if you rolled up a beggar from Nadsokor, there

was a very interesting disadvantages table :) circa 1981.

-V

I played one of those with multiple "aid to roleplaying" type disadvantages, and had a blast for the 3-4 session adventure he was in...then I retired him as a virtual rich, prince in Nadsokor.

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... anyway, what's wrong with people just 'roleplaying' ads and disads? you know - as part of their character. Real people don't get more points to spend on a skill or similar for being blind in one eye or looking like a minger!

Many gamers have a hard time doing something that puts their character at a disadvantage, because somewhere in our psyches we know the point of a "game" is to win. Others lack either the experience or motivation to get into a role. A friend of mine has a quite Pavlovian solution: provide a concrete, in-game bonus for good role-playing, especially if doing so prevents your character from succeeding.

The Aspects idea from FATE is brilliant in this respect: a quality that provides an arbitrary situational bonus or a hindrance. The economy of Fate Points in Spirit of the Century gets really interesting, especially as the session continues and players hoard their Fate Points for when they really need them. Those Fate Points the GM offers for compelling an Aspect start looking really good ...

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Another recent game that makes that sort of system palatable is Ubiquity (Hollow Earth Expedition, and now Desolation) with it's Talents, Flaws, and 'style points'. It makes it so that you get an in-game advantage by playing up the flaws. If you have the Reckless flaw and dive in against overwhelming odds, you get a style point which you can spend to help you get out of the trouble you got into to get the point and so on. So you can use the flaws to get the chance to improve your skills and Talents. Sort of a self replicating mechanism to encourage play and involvement.

I think it works in this case, but BRP works without it, too.

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I quite agree - and anyway, what's wrong with people just 'roleplaying' ads and disads? you know - as part of their character. Real people don't get more points to spend on a skill or similar for being blind in one eye or looking like a minger!

Two answers, both I've referenced before:

1. Are you equally willing to let people just roleplay their advantages? Ambidexterity? Photographic Memory? Both those provide real game benefits, and I doubt many GMs are willing to let people just say they have them. As long as you're going to be fussy about players having to pay some resource for such benefits, then I think they have every right to expect to get some resource for their opposites.

2. Real people don't get a higher intelligence for being clumsy, but the moment you use attribute point distribution they do, so unless you're a fixed proponent of rolled stats, you're already halfway to an advantage/disadvantage system the moment you use point distribution for attributes.

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That's a workable solution for certain sorts of disadvantages, especially psychological flaws were the way and degree they kick in is somewhat subjective; M&M Complications work in a similar fashion with their Hero Point mechanics.

That said, I still maintain for straightforward ability benefits and drawbacks that are not directly reflected by simple attribute levels, an advantage and disadvantage system is both desirable and no more problematic than point distribution systems for attributes already are (if you consider that sort of trade-off undesirable, which I don't).

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Yes, I'm a great supporter of rolled stats - only I let the players allocate where the roll goes. I don't have a problem with ambidexterity - my wife and son are both naturally abidextrous (sadly, I'm not). Something like edetic memory would need to be handled with care. But my point was that experienced playes and GM's should be encouraged to think about flaws and specials in a character AND how they would be roleplayed, without a rules mechanic to potentially get in the way. I've played characters in many games that had flaws and no reward - it made for some very fun gaming. I've also had characters that have 'exploited' ads and dis-ads systems - the results of which were unbelievable from a 'real' point of view BUT legal within the framwork of the rules.

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Yes, I'm a great supporter of rolled stats - only I

Well, you're in a little different bailiwick then then the people who prefer (or insist on) point allocation but still choke at ad and disad systems.

I'll just say, however, that while rolled systems can evoke creativity, even with assignment after the fact I don't see any virtue in producing characters someone simply doesn't want to play, with the concurrent potential swings in value of the character. You can call me immature if you like, but I simply don't need to be playing in a game where my character is and will always been inferior in his area of speciality to another PC simply because his initial dice rolls were more cooperative than mine. Let alone dealing with potentially really low rolls that I have to do something with whether I want to engage with the implications of the stupidity/clumsiness/abrasive personality or whatever it ends up being the place to put the bad stat. People who want that sort of thing can produce it fine with a build point system, but it doesn't force it on people who don't.

gaming. I've also had characters that have 'exploited' ads and dis-ads systems - the results of which were unbelievable from a 'real' point of view BUT legal within the framwork of the rules.

The ability of people to abuse a process is not, in and of itself, a critique of the process; its a critique of the people.

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I did not intend to imply that the way I play should be compulsory or that ads and disads systems should not exist. I just think that they should be as optional as all of the other rules - because at the end of the day, any rule is potentially optional. I would consider myself to be an experienced gamer (I started playing D&D in 1980), as are the people I game with. We have no problem roleplaying unfortunate stats or disadvantages. I once had a character that was effected by a spell that ment when a certain thing triggered the reaction (mirrors), he had to roll on the confusion table to see what he would do for the next d10 rounds. If you don't like playing like that, that's fine by me - I can understand that some people would find it hard or frustrating and therefore not very much fun.

I guess my gaming philosophy can be summed up like this - 'If the dice give you lemons - make lemonade.'

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I did not intend to imply that the way I play should be compulsory or that ads and disads systems should not exist. I just think that they should be as optional as all of the other rules - because at the end of the day, any rule is potentially optional. I would consider myself to

Well, there's no reason you can't have a usage neutral version of that system that's optional in practice even if it isn't stated that way; not all games that use them treat them that way (GURPS more or less does; it isn't really necessary to use any to have a decent character; Hero less so because its still based fundamentally around Champions where they're such a part of the genre it really wants you to have them).

be an experienced gamer (I started playing D&D in 1980), as are the people I game with. We have no problem roleplaying unfortunate stats or disadvantages. I once had a character that was effected by a spell that ment

That's fine as a personal ethic, but at the point people expect others to feel the same, I think it goes too far, and many people who share your ethic do.

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Hello again!

BRP has now over 3000 views.

I think that BRP doesn't have a dis-ads system is one of its best selling points.

I have played/GM GURPS & World of Darkness and have no problem playing rpg,s with dis-ads system. But sometimes the characters can be to neurotic.

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I think that BRP doesn't have a dis-ads system is one of its best selling points.

I have played/GM GURPS & World of Darkness and have no problem playing rpg,s with dis-ads system. But sometimes the characters can be to neurotic.

And that differs from fictional characters and, well, real people just how?

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And that differs from fictional characters and, well, real people just how?

It means that if a real person who's too neurotic shows up to a gaming session, they probably won't be invited back for the next session:D

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It means that if a real person who's too neurotic shows up to a gaming session, they probably won't be invited back for the next session:D

Given most gamers, that'd mean they were a lot more neurotic than most disad system characters. :cool:

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Given most gamers, that'd mean they were a lot more neurotic than most disad system characters. :cool:

That's why I only play with Mythic GM Emulator :lol:

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