Kinship and Exogamy in Sartar

[Joerg]

There is always the outlet of retainership - you can become a companion of an important leader. I don't think that this kind of relationship is limited to warriors and tricksters, and Gringlestead actually shows us how even non-Heortlings like the Dostopikis family may become accepted members of the community. This relationship is a lot less stable than kinship, but while it lasts, the protection enjoyed by the retainer is functionally the same as clan membership.

For me, the different role of the core family is what makes the real difference. The Heortlings are fairly likely to have patchwork families with those temporary marriages which may distrubute the offspring of an individual over several clans and bloodlines, in case of reciprocal temporary marriages even full siblings in the separate bloodlines of either parent. As a result, the child-parent relationship may not be with the birthing parent.

[Sir_Godspeed]

Hey, I'm a newbie to both this forum, and to Glorantha in general, but I've been reading up on the guide and various parts of the Stafford Library (the ones I've been able to get my hands on). My interest comes mainly from the anthropological side of things, since I'm working on my master's thesis in social anthropology. I just wanted to add, somewhat carefully (as there is a lot in here I haven't been able to read up on), that most oral-based societies across the world tend to be more flexible in their kinship structures than what the "official" versions often make it out to be. The way I tend to interpret the lore on laws and customs that are found in the background books, is that they are "ideals" rather than an all-encompassing description of facts on the ground, as it were.

Examples from real life that come to mind are the historical Germanic tendencies to "invent" mythological ancestries to justify regal positions (in Glorantha this obviously becomes a bit more complicated what with Heroquesting and all). The Norwegian kings claiming to descend from Freyr, the god of agriculture (via an ancient (to them) bloodline in Sweden), is a famous example. Another, more recent example, come from the various Nilotic peoples in what is now South Sudan - where patrilineality is practiced heavily, but sometimes the gender of an ancestor is "discovered" or "re-remembered" to be a male rather than a female, which allows for what would otherwise be an exogamous group, to be treated as part of the clan or bloodline (otherwise the descendants of an ancestors sister would belong to her husband's bloodline, of course). I strongly suspect - or use as headcanon - that Gloranthan societies would also be open to similar creative moves for the sake of social cohesion and accommodation. I actually interviewed a number of people who'd defied traditional caste-regulations in rural India, and while their experiences varied, and all were tough experiences with disapproval for their families ranging from dismissive to outright disowning them, the ones who were hellbent on getting their partner in marriage did prevail, however "impossible" those unions were on paper (or in the collective mind of the caste-group, rather).

This leads me to the topic of marriages within clans. With the perspective of "bending the rules" in place, one could for example imagine a clever pater/mater familias, chief or other authority figure, asking a member of a different clan to act as a sponsor or patron of whoever wanted to get married within the clan, for example. One of the unlucky pair of star-crossed lovers could appeal with the sponsorship of a out-of-clan relative, maybe matrilineal even, to get things more palateable to the laws/norms. Maybe it would require a formal adoption rite to get an external affiliation, or a form of wardship, or just a token stay in the household of the sponsor or something, but ultimately if there is will for it, it could probably be pressed through. The force of the lovers' personalities, the standing of their families (ironically, higher-standing families might not make this easier, possibly the opposite), and external contacts and so on would all be factors playing into this.

I suppose the roleplayer's perspective here would be "storyhook", but since I'm a bit new to this world of gaming, I tend to think of it just as ordinary folks figuring out how to make life liveable when confonted with social strictures.

Since this is my first post here, I hope I did not commit any faux pas, or said something irrelevant or what have you. I'm enjoying the lore-side of Glorantha immensely, it's clearly a world that's been crafted with a great deal of anthropological insight.

Edited August 22, 2018 by Sir_Godspeed

[Joerg]

4 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

This leads me to the topic of marriages within clans. With the perspective of "bending the rules" in place, one could for example imagine a clever pater/mater familias, chief or other authority figure, asking a member of a different clan to act as a sponsor or patron of whoever wanted to get married within the clan, for example. One of the unlucky pair of star-crossed lovers could appeal with the sponsorship of a out-of-clan relative, maybe matrilineal even, to get things more palateable to the laws/norms. Maybe it would require a formal adoption rite to get an external affiliation, or a form of wardship, or just a token stay in the household of the sponsor or something, but ultimately if there is will for it, it could probably be pressed through. The force of the lovers' personalities, the standing of their families (ironically, higher-standing families might not make this easier, possibly the opposite), and external contacts and so on would all be factors playing into this.

If you want to facilitate such a marriage, sure, a formal adoption to another clan would be a possibility. In any event, the prospective couple should be from sufficiently distant bloodlines so that no trouble occurs.

It ought to be feasible for the bride to join the bloodline of her maternal grandmother (assuming that her parents don't have an Esrolian marriage, in which case she might join the bloodline of the paternal grandfather). This would be a real bloodline, not just some adoption, and may take some negotiation (indebting the couple, their target bloodline, and their clan to the clan of that bloodline, or cancelling a debt owed to that clan - not a minor concession).

There should be ways to divorce a clan (legally separating kinship) by joining a temple. Same thing again, one of the marriage partners comes to the target clan as a member of that temple, never mind that it is the birth clan.

Then there is the chance of a holy marriage, as representants of the gods. Usually, these arrangements are short term and temporary, but there is no hard rule about how long such a temporary marriage can be extended, and it could be made basically open-ended. That might block any magic to be gained from that rite for the clan, however, so it shouldn't be made for a regular event.

Heroquests allow a quester to attain a new identity, as you mentioned. A calamity like the Kings of Mercia lacking divine ancestry can be solved by heroquesting. Filial or ancestral recognition by a deity or hero is a common target for quests, and does generate a strong link to that entity. King Broyan proved his Vingkotling status through heroquesting, and inserted himself in the ancient royal lineage. Harmast Barefoot apparently did so accidentally on his initatory quest.

Armed with such a new, heroic identity, a wedding with the clan makes magical sense and does provide a lasting benefit to the clan - all that is asked for from any such marriage contract.

The downside is that once you have stepped on the hero's path, you will be drawn to it again and again. The upside for the clan is that they have a heroic problem-solver tied to the clan by multiple ties - even if the new identity is heroic, no one from the old bloodline will forget where the hero grew up.

 

All we said above is that there is no conventional way to have to people from the same clan marrying one another. All of my suggestions solve this by altering one of the partners' kinship.

If you want to introduce mild tragedy, you could have both prospective partners undergo such efforts without telling the other. The couple might end up applying for adoption to their birth clan.

[soltakss]

Personally, I think that there is not just one way of defining blood relationships in Sartar.

• Most clans follow an Orlanthi model
• Some clans from the north may follow kinship similar to Yemlanian clans.
• Some clans from the south may follow kinship similar to Ernadlan clans.
• Some clans follow one model but with influences from another model.

So, most clans in Sartar would follow the normal Orlanthi way of determining kinship.

However, some clans in the south may well have kinship determined by matriarchial descent, so you belong to the clan if your mother did. Some clans would combine the two, so you belong to the clan if your father did, but a certain bloodline in the clan is determined by the mothers.

I much prefer a messier approach, as it can lead to ambiguities. If one clan is patrilineal and another is matrilineal, then an Adventurer could well belong to both clans, one through the father and one through the mother. A relationship approved by one clan could be considered taboo by another.

[jeffjerwin]

On 8/23/2018 at 2:33 AM, soltakss said:

 

I much prefer a messier approach, as it can lead to ambiguities. If one clan is patrilineal and another is matrilineal, then an Adventurer could well belong to both clans, one through the father and one through the mother. A relationship approved by one clan could be considered taboo by another.

This is the sort of thing a marriage agreement is going to decide. 'Belonging to both' means the negotiation/lawspeaker got screwed up.

Though that sounds like a good story.

One could imagine the child of a sacred marriage being given a choice as an adult, based on the god that speaks to them. Then a tug-of-war could ensue if their 'body' is magically/socially important - like they are the legal 'owner' of land in contention and the marriage was to make a truce.

[Akhôrahil]

On 7/25/2018 at 6:11 PM, Bohemond said:

I want to play up the whole ogre problem among the Red Cows, and one obvious way to do that is for the ogres to seduce other members of their own clan, but if such activity was outrageous, they probably wouldn't do that. Also, strictly exogamous marriage means that PC Ernaldans have to leave the clan when they get married, which makes maintaining an adventuring group a bit trickier (although Esrolan marriage solves that problem). So I'm looking to see what people think about this issue. 

Once, it was stated that all sex within the clan counted as incestuous, but that seemed pretty danged unlikely to me, and I believe it's been rolled back to just the marriage part (and with merely sex within the bloodline or with other immediate kin counting as incest). So it probably makes more sense to have this ogre seduction come in the form of pre-marital sex or adultery (the latter highly frowned upon, of course, but kept secret for obvious reasons). The chaotic taint of adultery might even help to father more ogres.

Edited August 28, 2018 by Akhôrahil

[Joerg]

In toying with describing Elmali steads and exploring how they may have been pushed into accepting the new cult of the Golden Spearman Yelmalio ouside of their clan instead, I have tried to put a number of the proposals and conclusions in this thread to practice.

One concept that sort of suggested itself to me was that of Elmali bloodlines - solar worship running in ancestral lines, and these bloodlines establishing a network of intermarriages, fostering and shared holy places inside the network of clan relationships among the Heortlings.

With their homeguard ersatz-chieftain role, horse magics, warrior ethos and religious obligation to wear gold, I guess that Elmali bloodlines tend to be a bit more affluent and influential than your run-of-the-mill Orlanthi bloodline. Even so, with an Orlanthi-all (i.e.. 6 out of 7) people initiating directly to Orlanth and Ernalda, and allowing some dual initiation, I figure that probably half of the members of these bloodlines will be regular Orlanthi rather than Elmali.

Exploring intra-clan politics and maneuvering for tribal positions (to be created, exchanged, or discontinued) adds another field of Orlanthi interactions that may result in plot hooks or scenarios.

 

Applying these considerations to create NPCs or possibly freeform characters has been an interesting experience so far. It is about time to create some gaming material out of these musings. Going the way of freeform charater descriptions with lists of people the character knows and needs to settle things with might be the most productive approach since it requires even less game rules overhead than HeroQuest.