Sedalpist sorcery

[Manu]

I'll start very soon a campaign in Umathela, where the Sedalpist are numerous. And most probably one of my player will play one.

It is said (in the Guide) that :

Sedalpists have incorporated many of the meditative techniques of the Cult of Silence, and seek to attain a state of Perfect Reason through meditation

 

How could I translate this into game play? There is no 'mysticism' in RQG that could fit.
 

[metcalph]

My own thoughts on Mysticism are pretty nebulous.

I think the best way to handle it in RQG would be through Runic Inspirations (RQG p227).  Instead of using a runic inspiration for an augment, the character uses it to achieve a specific mental state.  Through repeated attainments of these mental states, one achieves the desired spiritual goal  (Henosis, Illumination, Enlightenment etc).  Now the character will generally follow a ritual (the Seven Steps of the Goddess being the best described example) and will use sympathetic magic (p338) in order to aid his chance of success.  

 

[metcalph]

As an example of a mystical ritual.

The Sedalpists aim to seek Perfect Reason.  The basic mythic pattern is the Five Actions.  

1) The Sedalpist starts with the Fifth Action (Great Darkness), which is destruction.  He mediates upon the Death Rune, representing the destruction of worldly distractions.

2) He then moves to the Fourth Action (Storm Age)  He mediates upon the Movement Rune to move his spirit to a higher place.

3) He then reaches the Third Action (Golden Age) by meditating upon the Harmony Rune to align his soul with the Cosmos.

Now he has reached Makan, his intended spiritual goal.  Going into the Green Age etc is Illumination and requires more than just meditation on another rune.

I really don't know what the effects of this will be as a lot will be dependent on what the Gamemaster's Guide will say about Illumination and Heropowers.  Conventionally Unity of one's mind with Makan is henosis that allows the sorcerer to create new magics .  The Hrestoli go further and seek contact with the Hidden Mover and what happens there is dependent again on the Gamemaster's Guide.

[Joerg]

I do wonder a bit what happened to Sandy's old presentation of the Sedalpists as a pacifist sect with the irony of having (and endorsing) strong magics to deal with non-humans, like e.g. here.

But then, Malkionism apparently has been revised quite a bit more than used to think it had. Taking the "church" out of Malkionism almost appears to have taken the Malkioni magic away from the vast majority of the Malkioni, leaving them with Spirit Magic and Rune Magic just like any Theyalan.

I hope to be wrong about that statement, though.

[metcalph]

15 minutes ago, Joerg said:

But then, Malkionism apparently has been revised quite a bit more than used to think it had. Taking the "church" out of Malkionism almost appears to have taken the Malkioni magic away from the vast majority of the Malkioni, leaving them with Spirit Magic and Rune Magic just like any Theyalan.

Malkioni outside the Wizard Caste are definitely not like any other Theyalan, except for the Aeolians.  If you want a constructive discussion  about magic in Malkioni society in general, start a new thread but please leave this for handling mysticism within the Sedalpists.

[Joerg]

When I look at this with the RQG character sheet in mind, I get the impression that this “Perfect Reason” might be projected on the Man-Beast duality in the character traits. It is basing your everyday as well as your fundamental decisions on Reason rather than Instinct.

Please skip the rest of this post if you don’t want to follow me through weird discussion of history and shreds of Malkioni philosphy from the apocrypha.

Reason is the Malkioni state of mind of the Fourth Action.

Revealed Mythologies p.8 offers a few qualifiers for Reason:

 

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Malkion the Seer had been Pure Reason, but the Seer became the Founder when Malkion moved into the realms of Forms and Powers and mixed them according to the formulae of Applied Reason.

 

The Fifth Action then talks about limited Reasoning (p.13):

 

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The Fifth Action mixed the realms of Finity and Infinity according to the limited Reasoning. Regrettably, this Reasoning was far too vague and utterly unsuitable for the vast opposition which foreign peoples and races registered against Malkion.

 

As mystic goals go, Perfect Reason doesn't seem to aim that high.

I wonder whether there is a parallel to the distinction between Nenduren's Stillness which had the achievement of the Ultimate in the shape of Atrilith at its end and the Perfect Stillness of Enrono which only achieved living right and the Blessing of Atrilith.
 

Anyway, we have three capital letter qualifiers for Reason: Pure - the power of Malkion the Seer, Applied - the power of sorcery (also compare Martalak, the Eastern sorcerer, being given the power of Reasoning), and Perfect, the goal of the Sedalpists.

Perfect Reason is obviously superior to the limited Reasoning that led to the catastrophic Fifth Action. After the backlash against the God Learners, their ways may very well have been equated with the limited reasoning that ended the Fourth Action, so the spiritual goal of the Sedalpists might be to avoid falling into those traps.

 

Austere meditation isn't necessarily the self-mutilation or torture on demand like some "accelerated meditation techniques" (e.g. Sheng's) appear to use. At its original meaning, it is asceticism, as in the monastic or hermit life-style. Flagellants or self-mutilators like Elassi the Stifler usually "get it wrong" when they try to outdo methods like exposure (fasting, meditation under waterfalls, out in the snow, carrying massive weights or similar).

In Glorantha, there is magic and possibly insight to be had from suffering - that's the way of Gerra, and of Danfive Xaron, but IMO that is a form of Sacrifice (i.e. Theism) rather than Mysticism. (Let's not go down the route from Ernst Jünger to fictional villains like Firefly's Niska here...)

 

Elassi appears to be another case where the method of meditation was elevated above the goal behind the meditation. The Path to Silence communicated by the Wordless Prophet was a means to achieve a greater clarity, but the practices of Elassi just enforced silence. I see parallels here to other meditative practices which only focus on the trappings of a deeper mystic practice, like the short cut forms of the EWF which focused on attaining draconic shape rather than draconic insight (Immanent Mastery, Right Left-Hand Path).
 

The text block on the Sedalpists (p.623) mentions esotericism of post-God Learner Malkionism in Umathela. The Path to Silence may have started as a counter-movement to the silliness of such "we learned our lesson, and now we're taking that folly to a height that will make it right" sects, before being turned into another one of these.

Austerities probably came through the conquest of the Lands of Silence at the hands of the Fonritians, evidently of the Bolgaddi persuasion as the Tsanyano movement started only after the Jann of Sarro had taken over the Enklosan coastal states. Sedalpism is opposed to the oppressive brutality of the Fonritian philosophy, so I see no point in giving their austerities any shade of bolgaddi harshness to oneself.

 

Sedalpist sorcery will be strictly limited to the Sedalpist zzaburi over-caste. The other castes will be recipients, but not practitioners of this sorcery.

I see the meditative practice as common to all Sedalpists. It might constitute a major part of their “Worship (Invisible God)” activities,, when overseen by their zzabur caste sorcerers, but it would also be part of their private routine.

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Reason is the Malkioni state of mind of the Fourth Action.

That's just a label and Revealed Mythologies is notoriously inconsistent about what the labels actually refer to (is there any real difference between Logic, Thought and Reason?  I couldn't tell after reading RM).  That's why I specified the action and appropriate region of God-Time following the example of the Seven Steps of the Red Goddess as it gives a clearer idea of what's being talked about.

Moreover - how would you do this within the RuneQuest rules (which is what the OP was asking for)?

 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Sedalpist sorcery will be strictly limited to the Sedalpist zzaburi over-caste. The other castes will be recipients, but not practitioners of this sorcery.

Why strictly? (Why do you call the Zzaburi an over-caste?)  I would have thought that  if the other castes wanted to learn some sorcery then it would be permitted.  I don't think anybody would normally bother with combat sorcery but sorcery magics to aid Sedalpist meditation would be reasonable (uncommon but still reasonable).

For example, a spell which increased the chance of runic inspiration by +5% would be useful in meditation (ultimately it would be a crutch that must be discarded).

 

 

[Tindalos]

14 hours ago, Manu said:

How could I translate this into game play? There is no 'mysticism' in RQG that could fit.
 

There is, however, the Meditate skill. Practitioners of Sedalpist philosophy likely invest a lot of their time (and skill points) into meditation.

Combined with this, their wizards will probably focus on Logical Clarity, Logician, and Solace of the Logical Mind. These spells prevent the use of passions through logic and reason.

[jajagappa]

14 hours ago, Manu said:

Sedalpists have incorporated many of the meditative techniques of the Cult of Silence, and seek to attain a state of Perfect Reason through meditation

How could I translate this into game play? There is no 'mysticism' in RQG that could fit.

Look through the section starting on RQG p.244 on increasing chance of success with magic through meditation and ritual practices.  These would be the techniques IMO.

Successful use of Meditation during the casting yields a direct and specific bonus to the chance of success.

Ritual practices also can add bonuses and  represent time spent in preparations.  As the Cult of Silence, there will be no chanting, but I'd include creating mandalas or other geometric patterns, carving of Runes, perhaps even inscribing words or formulas on the ground, or even on material that can be burned or otherwise destroyed.  

[Joerg]

30 minutes ago, metcalph said:

That's just a label and Revealed Mythologies is notoriously inconsistent about what the labels actually refer to (is there any real difference between Logic, Thought and Reason?  I couldn't tell after reading RM). 

Here's my impression (sorry for the distraction):

RM presents the Actions as the stages of Devolution, from 1st Action Intellect/Mind through 2nd Action Thought/Law, 3rd Action Logic/Seer, 4th Action Reason/Founder and 5th Action Instinct/Sacrifice. To me, the Actions are connected to the spatial dimensions, substract one from the Action to get the dimension. Intellect is zero-dimensional, the mere existence of Mind. Thought is one-dimensional, a Though has a direction. Logic is two-dimensional, a plane of co-planar but not parallel Thoughts which can be chained. Reason then adds another dimension and puts Logics, these chains of Thought, into multiple applications. The Fifth Action added something beyond human comprehension, and to the understanding of Zzabur failed. Eventually, it did give birth to (non-cyclical) Time, however.

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That's why I specified the action and appropriate region of God-Time following the example of the Seven Steps of the Red Goddess as it gives a clearer idea of what's being talked about.

But the Seven Steps deal with the mystical Absolute, not with the humanist world-view.

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Moreover - how would you do this within the RuneQuest rules (which is what the OP was asking for)?

FIrst of all, my approach removes all the need to search for some rules for mysticism by giving a humanist goal for the purpose of the meditation. It is not about reaching some undefinable Absolute, but it is to perceive the world in a way where Reason following Logic guides one's existence. Experiencing the Joy of perceiving the Invisible God, confirming them in living the good life.

(I am writing this while "called away" from my response to the discussion of Malkionism in a new thread, where I try to present my understanding of Malkionism.)

Basically, the meditation practices of the Sedalpists have the purpose of guiding their lives into a reasonable direction. Their sorcery is Malkioni sorcery as it should be. No need to devise new rules, but possibly a need to devise a list of appropriate spells, from the ones in RQG, and possibly a few developed following the guidelines of those rules.

That's why I wondered about their stance towards non-humans. Should their sorcerers have spells harmful to non-human sentients?

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Why strictly?

Because I do see a Soldier Caste, but no Men-of-All who might be the other group which might have access to Sorcery as personal magic.

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(Why do you call the Zzaburi an over-caste?) 

Because (Guide p.623)

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Sedalpists divide mankind into four castes (and innumerable sub-castes).

This suggests that not just the commoners, but all castes have sub-divisions. The (hereditary - why not?) sorcerer caste may be divided into different hereditary jobs. Enchanters, Blessers, ...

 

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I would have thought that  if the other castes wanted to learn some sorcery then it would be permitted. 

A nice approach that I would like to see in RQG, too, but not consistent with my reading of the rules. I'll address this in the separate post.

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I don't think anybody would normally bother with combat sorcery but sorcery magics to aid Sedalpist meditation would be reasonable (uncommon but still reasonable).

The Sedalpists are as likely to have military sorcerers as the Rokari, and like the Rokari, they cast the enhancing spells on those who they send into the fight. Their philosophy forbids the Sedalpists to directly harm another human, so a few of the sorcerer spells would be taboo to be cast on humans or in a way that their direct effect affects humans. Indirect harm (like trapping someone in fire on all sides, then waiting for the fire to approach and consume the victim) would not be taboo (though probably as spiritually poisoning as the use of "throwing crowns" or "bashing sceptres" by the Arolanit talars).

 

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For example, a spell which increased the chance of runic inspiration by +5% would be useful in meditation (ultimately it would be a crutch that must be discarded).

If one accepts the model of the Seven Steps for the Sedalpists, which I don't.

Using existing sorcery the way @Tindalos and @jajagappa proposed while I was typing this should do the job.

[Austin]

21 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Ritual practices also can add bonuses and  represent time spent in preparations.  As the Cult of Silence, there will be no chanting, but I'd include creating mandalas or other geometric patterns, carving of Runes, perhaps even inscribing words or formulas on the ground, or even on material that can be burned or otherwise destroyed.  

That's a cool idea.

I feel like what would be useful rules for you depends a bit on what sort of game you'll end up playing. The "adventurers actively going out into the world" concept clashes in my thought with what it seems the Sedalpists are. I'm imagining a sort of Indian or Tibetan Buddhist monk, seeking abstraction to separate himself from the world. (I could be totally wrong in that regard.) So it seems to me that the first thing to determine would be what sort of game you're trying to play, and then see how the Sedalpist mystic character concept melds into that.

If you're still going with the dominant game concept (adventuring in the world), I figure there's still plenty of space to try a mystic, RP-wise. Someone who wants to separate himself, but keeps getting drawn back in through community connections, and demands. A sort of constant tension between seeking enlightenment and helping others pursue it.

Rules-wise, I figure you'll have to expand on the RQG Sorcery as written. IMHO it feels pretty incomplete (but I'm used to a massively houseruled & overcomplex version of Petersen's rules, so grain of salt). Mechanically, it makes sense that movement toward enlightenment could be represented through increased growth toward the Man rune, and maybe the Stasis rune as well. If there's a Law rune, perhaps acquiring % toward that would make sense, representing complete mechanistic understanding of the world, sans the control of it implied in Mastery (which also has all sorts of theistic implications, I think).

[David Scott]

15 hours ago, Manu said:

I'll start very soon a campaign in Umathela, where the Sedalpist are numerous. And most probably one of my player will play one.

It is said (in the Guide) that :

Sedalpists have incorporated many of the meditative techniques of the Cult of Silence, and seek to attain a state of Perfect Reason through meditation

How could I translate this into game play? There is no 'mysticism' in RQG that could fit.

Are you meaning that one of your players will choose to be a philosopher and join what according to the Guide, is another school of Malkionism? Rather than one of the other occupations?

 

Edited July 27, 2018 by David Scott

[metcalph]

Just now, Joerg said:

Here's my impression (sorry for the distraction):

RM presents the Actions as the stages of Devolution, from 1st Action Intellect/Mind through 2nd Action Thought/Law, 3rd Action Logic/Seer, 4th Action Reason/Founder and 5th Action Instinct/Sacrifice. To me, the Actions are connected to the spatial dimensions, substract one from the Action to get the dimension. Intellect is zero-dimensional, the mere existence of Mind. Thought is one-dimensional, a Though has a direction. Logic is two-dimensional, a plane of co-planar but not parallel Thoughts which can be chained. Reason then adds another dimension and puts Logics, these chains of Thought, into multiple applications. The Fifth Action added something beyond human comprehension, and to the understanding of Zzabur failed. Eventually, it did give birth to (non-cyclical) Time, however.

But the Seven Steps deal with the mystical Absolute, not with the humanist world-view.

Joerg, I really wasn't interested in what the point of the Seven Steps was all about.  I presented it as an example as something that was easy to understand.  Talking and distinguishing between Mind/Intellect/Thought whatever is just a sequence of words of the order of which could be totally jumbled up and nobody would be any wiser.  Map it on places on the God Time and other people *understand*.  

 

Just now, Joerg said:

FIrst of all, my approach removes all the need to search for some rules for mysticism by giving a humanist goal for the purpose of the meditation. It is not about reaching some undefinable Absolute, but it is to perceive the world in a way where Reason following Logic guides one's existence. Experiencing the Joy of perceiving the Invisible God, confirming them in living the good life.

You could have explained your philosophy in the paragraph above without going into an in-depth analysis of comparative mysticism.  "The Sedalpist do not need rules for mysticism because the mystical awareness they seek confirms them in the Good Life" is the type of answer that the OP was seeking.  Whether I agreed with it or not is neither here or there, what matters is what the OP wants.

 

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Why [do you think the Sedalpists restrict sorcery - PHM] strictly?

Because I do see a Soldier Caste, but no Men-of-All who might be the other group which might have access to Sorcery as personal magic.

I feel you blur the issue between magic that a caste might be expected to use as part of his job and magic pursued as a private devotion or study.  The RQG rules make it clear that the Malkioni commoners use spirit magic for the most part.  That doesn't mean they can't study sorcery if they wanted to.  Hence I don't see the point of forbidding other castes from using sorcery.

 

 

Just now, Joerg said:

The Sedalpists are as likely to have military sorcerers as the Rokari, and like the Rokari, they cast the enhancing spells on those who they send into the fight.

Except the Sedalpists are non-violent whereas the Rokari are not.  And I doubt the Sedalpist would be impressed by the argument while violence against another sentient is bad (Guide p634), magical spells against them are perfectly okay.  

 

Just now, Joerg said:

Their philosophy forbids the Sedalpists to directly harm another human, so a few of the sorcerer spells would be taboo to be cast on humans or in a way that their direct effect affects humans. Indirect harm (like trapping someone in fire on all sides, then waiting for the fire to approach and consume the victim) would not be taboo (though probably as spiritually poisoning as the use of "throwing crowns" or "bashing sceptres" by the Arolanit talars).

The attitude of the Arolanit Talars arises because their philosophy is strictly rules-bound.  The Sedalpists are not rules-bound and their philosophy is a reaction in part against the oppressive brutality of the Fonritans.  Somehow saying the Fonritans are oppressively brutal which is bad but we are subtlely brutal which is permissable comes across as too cyncial for the Sedalpists.

 

[Joerg]

3 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I really wasn't interested in what the point of the Seven Steps was all about.  I presented it as an example as something that was easy to understand. 

 

Looks like I didn't find that easy to understand.

3 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Talking and distinguishing between Mind/Intellect/Thought whatever is just a sequence of words of the order of which could be totally jumbled up and nobody would be any wiser. 

That's true for any kind of jargon you inject when talking philosophy. 

There isn't much in print about the Sedalpists, even when taking a look at no longer canonical sources. They used to be a simple doctrine - don't harm any human, and give hell to any non-human that dares approach you. Sandy's special spells  for Sedalpist sorcerers are intentionally cruel and gruesome, this contradiction was a characteristic of the Sedalpists as presented by him.

The philosophy grew out of the mess that Elassi's Silencer movement and the Afadjanni occupation created in coastal Vralos. I think it would be useful to have an idea what their meditation is about - that was the original question, the state of Perfect Reason.

Given the capitalisation, we are signalled that we are dealing with jargon here. That's why I went and explored the jargon

 

 

3 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I feel you blur the issue between magic that a caste might be expected to use as part of his job and magic pursued as a private devotion or study.  The RQG rules make it clear that the Malkioni commoners use spirit magic for the most part.  That doesn't mean they can't study sorcery if they wanted to.  Hence I don't see the point of forbidding other castes from using sorcery.

Castes are about forbidding activities to members of other castes. Talars don't fight (or at least didn't before they usurped the Man-of-All privileges), don't cast spells, don't till the land or craft or even repair things. Non-Talars don't ride (horses), don't judge legal cases or lend money, don't wear yellow (or gold).

 

3 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Except the Sedalpists are non-violent whereas the Rokari are not. 

I was questioning that earlier. But then I noticed a couple of formulations in the sources I consulted e.g. in the Guide that offered other, unexpected loopholes.

3 minutes ago, metcalph said:

And I doubt the Sedalpist would be impressed by the argument while violence against another sentient is bad (Guide p634), magical spells against them are perfectly okay.  

The Sedalpists use non-Sedalpist mercenaries "regretfully" to take care of military conflicts. They will probably equip them with food, clothing, weaponry, intelligence, transport, orders, payment, and magic.

3 minutes ago, metcalph said:

The attitude of the Arolanit Talars arises because their philosophy is strictly rules-bound.  The Sedalpists are not rules-bound and their philosophy is a reaction in part against the oppressive brutality of the Fonritans.  Somehow saying the Fonritans are oppressively brutal which is bad but we are subtlely brutal which is permissable comes across as too cyncial for the Sedalpists.

A stance like this against non-human threats used to be the trademark of the Sedalpists. That contradiction was inherent in their believes, possibly tragically so. 

I don't know whether their (former?) willingness to use force against non-humans may be part of their "resisting the rise of Somalz" story arc in the Hero Wars, but I think it could be.  We know that there are doctrinal difference e.g about the permission to eat fish, with the majority taking a less strict stance. The spectrum of such doctrines may extend further into gray zones.

A core theme of the Hero Wars for human cultures is the role of taboos, and breaking or at least bending them.

There's also the corrupting influence of the Vadeli in the region. With the Artmali revolt in neighboring Fonrit calling up old, better-forgotten Chaos allies and the Afadjanni following suit before 1631, the morality of the Vralans will be severely tested, and the Vadeli are all too iikely to point out possibiltiies to their neighbors.

The Season Wars saw the liberation of the Sedalpist lands from the Afadjanni by Orlanthi tribes under the leadership of the Vralan aldryami. Tortrica managed to throw out the Afadjanni even without aldryami aid. How much do you trust peaceniks to achieve such a feat without testing the limits?

[Revilo Divad Of Dyoll]

19 hours ago, Manu said:

I'll start very soon a campaign in Umathela, where the Sedalpist are numerous. And most probably one of my player will play one.

It is said (in the Guide) that :

Sedalpists have incorporated many of the meditative techniques of the Cult of Silence, and seek to attain a state of Perfect Reason through meditation

 

How could I translate this into game play? There is no 'mysticism' in RQG that could fit.
 

You could adapt the mysticism rules from Mythras.  In terms of mechanics, they are very clean and work well (and the effects are distinct from animism/sorcery/theism).

[metcalph]

15 hours ago, Joerg said:

Given the capitalisation, we are signalled that we are dealing with jargon here. That's why I went and explored the jargon

"Exploring jargon" at arcane length is a waste of time when what was being asked for were RQ rules in an RQ forum.

 

15 hours ago, Joerg said:

I was questioning [Sedalpist combat wizards - PHM] earlier. But then I noticed a couple of formulations in the sources I consulted e.g. in the Guide that offered other, unexpected loopholes.

I don't see these so-called loopholes allowing the Sedapists to have combat wizards. All that it suggests when required to go to war, they strongly prefer to get others to do it for them.  How this can be morphed into having a specialist order of wizards doing cleaver magics to kill people indirectly is beyond me.

 

15 hours ago, Joerg said:

I don't know whether their (former?) willingness to use force against non-humans may be part of their "resisting the rise of Somalz" story arc in the Hero Wars, but I think it could be.  We know that there are doctrinal difference e.g about the permission to eat fish, with the majority taking a less strict stance. The spectrum of such doctrines may extend further into gray zones.

A difference in interpretation about how to practice Sedalpist philosophy is not a "doctrinal difference".  Nothing is said about permission being required to eat fish, only that many of the Sedalpists who abstain from eating meat, most of whom still eat fish and some go further (the sentence can be interpreted differently as to who most refers to).  A doctrinal difference requires a legalistic mindset which is at odds with the Sedalpist description as being "notably tolerant of different viewpoints" (Guide p621).

 

 

15 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Season Wars saw the liberation of the Sedalpist lands from the Afadjanni by Orlanthi tribes under the leadership of the Vralan aldryami. Tortrica managed to throw out the Afadjanni even without aldryami aid. How much do you trust peaceniks to achieve such a feat without testing the limits?

Except that Tortica is not ruled by the Sedalpists.

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The ruler of Tortrica has sacrificed to storm
gods for years.

Guide p623

Tortrica is ruled by a civilized
Orlanthi dynasty who are descended from
the god Issaries and maintain the largest
cavalry force in Pamaltela.

Guide p641

 

[Manu]

Whouaw, thanks guys for all the answers and ideas (even if I'm not sure to understand all posts...)

On 7/27/2018 at 1:43 PM, David Scott said:

Are you meaning that one of your players will choose to be a philosopher and join what according to the Guide, is another school of Malkionism? Rather than one of the other occupations?

I think it would be more like a merchand's son, someone important in the city. He wants to follow the ways of his father (Sedalpist) but need to go to the outside world (adventures) in order to understand the world and create new business (with some friends/ hired mercenaries / slaves)

 

Also, I really don't see why Sedalpists could have deadly magic against other non-humans. It seems that most regions of Umathela have good relationship with Aldryami and Uz are quite far and doesn't seem to be a big problem to them (Fonritan are the biggest enemy for them). Hence I won't take Sandy's version of this sect.

[Manu]

On 7/27/2018 at 12:05 AM, metcalph said:

Now the character will generally follow a ritual (the Seven Steps of the Goddess being the best described example) and will use sympathetic magic (p338) in order to aid his chance of success.  

P338 of which book?

[Manu]

On 7/27/2018 at 1:31 PM, Crel said:

Rules-wise, I figure you'll have to expand on the RQG Sorcery as written. IMHO it feels pretty incomplete (but I'm used to a massively houseruled & overcomplex version of Petersen's rules, so grain of salt). Mechanically, it makes sense that movement toward enlightenment could be represented through increased growth toward the Man rune, and maybe the Stasis rune as well. If there's a Law rune, perhaps acquiring % toward that would make sense, representing complete mechanistic understanding of the world, sans the control of it implied in Mastery (which also has all sorts of theistic implications, I think).

Forbidding some runes should do the thing. No death rune, no movement rune,... And prefered runes : Man, Statis, Law, maybe fertility...

As I looked at the already existing spells (from RQG), is Castback accepted by the Sedalpist? What about Dominate spells?

[metcalph]

2 hours ago, Manu said:

P338 of which book?

Sorry that should have been p387-388 of the RuneQuest Glorantha book.

[metcalph]

2 hours ago, Manu said:

As I looked at the already existing spells (from RQG), is Castback accepted by the Sedalpist? What about Dominate spells?

Since they accept Self-Defence, the answer is probably yes.  Although some of the more pacifistic Sedalpists much feel the need to let it be known they are protected by such magics to avoid people casting lethal magic at them.  

Dominate spells are perfectly fine.  It's only when you use the Dominated person or creature that the moral questions arise.  Most Sedalpists would say that any deaths caused by the Dominated is the problem for the Dominator.  

[metcalph]

 

2 hours ago, Manu said:

I think it would be more like a merchand's son, someone important in the city. He wants to follow the ways of his father (Sedalpist) but need to go to the outside world (adventures) in order to understand the world and create new business (with some friends/ hired mercenaries / slaves)

One thing you could do is to make the Sedalpist wizards caste being one of renunciates.  Every Sedalpist upon reaching adulthood is sent to the local Sedalpist commune to live a chaste lifestyle and mediate for a couple of years.  Most simply learn the rudiments of their faith and flunk sorcery before heading out into the world again.  A few, or rather the Sedalpist wizards caste proper are those who have succeeded in their meditations and elect to remain within the caste rather than return to the outside world.  

 

2 hours ago, Manu said:

Also, I really don't see why Sedalpists could have deadly magic against other non-humans. It seems that most regions of Umathela have good relationship with Aldryami and Uz are quite far and doesn't seem to be a big problem to them (Fonritan are the biggest enemy for them). Hence I won't take Sandy's version of this sect.

I think Sandy's version of the Sedalpists was actually Chaosium's thinking on them once, although as you note it is difficult to reconcile that with the politics of Umathela.  

[Joerg]

 

8 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I think Sandy's version of the Sedalpists was actually Chaosium's thinking on them once, although as you note it is difficult to reconcile that with the politics of Umathela.  

Or these spells exist as part of the curriculum despite the pacifist posture. Possibly as spells they teach to non-Sedalpist sorcerers to do their dirty work.

A similar illogical religious requirement might be some combat dance element in their soldier caste which might give them some initial weapon skill.

It is easy to be a vegetarian if all you have for food is plant-based. It is a lot harder when someone digs into tasty-smelling food with gusto, although what smells tasty is clearly colored by your acculturation, as I learned from my vegetarian tenant from India.

 

What I find lacking in Sandy's spell excamples are spells that would affect Malasp, the one group of non-humans that are actively hostile to the Sedalpists.

[David Scott]

6 hours ago, Manu said:

I think it would be more like a merchand's son, someone important in the city. He wants to follow the ways of his father (Sedalpist) but need to go to the outside world (adventures) in order to understand the world and create new business (with some friends/ hired mercenaries / slaves)

If he's going to be a merchant, I'd adapt the issaries cult to represent it and change the rune spells to spells (be inventive). keep it simple. Merchants are the same the world over. No mastering runes, simple sorcery, they can use spirit magic.

My next question is what cast are merchants? Merchant-prince ones are Noble, but shop keepers are likely Dronar.

 

[Joerg]

5 hours ago, David Scott said:

My next question is what cast are merchants? Merchant-prince ones are Noble, but shop keepers are likely Dronar.

Shop keepers are likely crafters or cooks, possible in the business to preserve whatever they sell, so in all likelihood Dromal, even if wealthy. A peddler with just a basket or similar backpack probably wouldn't count as a Talar. The equivalent to a spare grain manager of rural resources might very well be the lowest of the Talar administrators, although the Sedalpists appear to have delegated low level administration to their Horal caste. Among the Rokari or Aeolians I would say Talar, among the Loskalmi possibly Guardian (commoner eligible to train for Man-of-all).