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Yinkin Shadowcats god, where is it's animal part


Pheres

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In the Glorantha sourcebook p 198 in Gods, Spirits, Heroes and Demons we can read a litlle more information:

We can see that:

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Most Gloranthans distinguish between gods and spirits; however, such distinctions are not consistent and vary from religion to religion

So it seems that there are very few distinctions between spirits and gods, except that about spirits:

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Sometimes, they are servants of the gods (and confusingly, the personal guardian deities sent by the gods to protect priests and devotees are typically called “allied spirits”); more often, they are independent of the gods and serve nothing except their own needs.

One thing that make gods being gods is their living in God Time. Heros and Demigods have a partail existance in the God Time. They didn't born with this, so it is possible to gain this existance. Perhaps spirits cults become a "true" divine one if the spirit exist in the God Time (and wish to become one)...

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Hero: These are mortals who, as a result of their actions, have some eternal existence in the God Time

 

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13 hours ago, Tindalos said:

Sorry, that wasn't my intention.

The point that spirit cults get rune magic was something I was referring to. Since if there was a non-rune cult "true cult" they probably wouldn't have rune magic. (For example, a sorcery cult that wasn't mixed like LM)

That's exactly what I am talking about. You don't need to be in the Rune Cults section of the rulebook to have Rune Magic. The Black Fang Brotherhood and Oakfed are spirit cults, true cults, bigger and more widespread than a small shrine to a local spirit. I feel like I'm saying the same thing over, am I misunderstanding you?

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8 hours ago, Pheres said:

So it seems that there are very few distinctions between spirits and gods, except that about spirits:

Well, if "Most Gloranthans distinguish between gods and spirits", then there must be many, not "very few", distinctions between them.

Edited by Julian Lord
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3 hours ago, Julian Lord said:

Well, if "Most Gloranthans distinguish between gods and spirits", then there must be many, not "very few", distinctions between them.

The complete sentence in the book is: "Most Gloranthans distinguish between gods and spirits; however, such distinctions are not consistent and vary from religion to religion "

So i am thinking that if not all gloranthans aggreed on what exactly are distinctions between spirits and gods there could not be a lot of differences between them.

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8 minutes ago, Pheres said:

i am thinking that if not all gloranthans aggreed on what exactly are distinctions between spirits and gods there could not be a lot of differences between them.

Or they could just be in disagreement about where the lines are drawn on the continuum. The difference between a Spirit and a God for one world view might only be small, and the difference between another world view's Gods and Spirits might be equally finely drawn. But the difference between the 'Spirit nearest to ascension to Godhood' for one and the 'God most likely to be mistaken for a Spirit' of another might be rather large.

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6 minutes ago, womble said:

Or they could just be in disagreement about where the lines are drawn on the continuum. The difference between a Spirit and a God for one world view might only be small, and the difference between another world view's Gods and Spirits might be equally finely drawn. But the difference between the 'Spirit nearest to ascension to Godhood' for one and the 'God most likely to be mistaken for a Spirit' of another might be rather large.

My point of view is that every gloranthans that have met a dog and a stone are knowing very well the distinctions between their nature and they could explain it in a very consistent way. But for gods and spirits, they can not... If they can not it's because the difference is not obvious! If it's not obvious, their can not be a huge difference in their nature, no?

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That is making the assumption that they have met a God personally, and a spirit that is Good like in power.  I am not sure that is true.  most spirits will in no way be confused with a god.  Power spirits passion spirits, haling spirits just dont really have much in the way to make you think of them as Gods

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11 hours ago, Pheres said:

The complete sentence in the book is: "Most Gloranthans distinguish between gods and spirits; however, such distinctions are not consistent and vary from religion to religion "

So i am thinking that if not all gloranthans aggreed on what exactly are distinctions between spirits and gods there could not be a lot of differences between them.

To say that distinctions lack consistency and are variable is, first, to state that the distinctions exist.

From what others have said, I think that it might be a good idea for you to think a bit more about Rune Cults not necessarily being centred on "gods".

Also, the rules for these Rune Cults and the associated Rune Spells may simply be a handy game rules convention for the purpose of keeping RuneQuest easier to play, without necessarily being directly descriptive of deeper Gloranthan cosmology.

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The difference between deity and spirit appears to be mainly its preferred habitat - God World or Spirit World. Now Spirit Travel gets you through the near Spirit Plane into deeper regions, and across boundaries delineating domains of various great entities.

Take for instance the Lowfires. Mahome, Gustbran and Oakfed are children of the god Lodril, and known to the Heortlings as gods.

The Praxians worship Oakfed as a Great Spirit, and are able to manifest him as such (without shattering the Compromise every time they do it).

The problem here is that once an entity has amassed a certain level of power/godhood, it may be encountered in various aspects. I have no doubt that the great spirit Oakfed is the same as the god Oakfed, but the entity you encounter in Prax when released is definitely the great spirit, not the deity. On the other hand, when called forth by a worshiper of Gustbran, Oakfed is the divine presence of that lowfire, possibly embodied by the worshiper, possibly using a fire elemental as its temporary body. Some tricks pertaining to that Great Spirit may fail to work against the divine entity, and vice versa, but on the whole they are the same.

In the end, we are faced with the elephant's ear, leg, tusk, trunk and belly all over.

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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On 6 August 2018 at 9:04 AM, PhilHibbs said:

That's exactly what I am talking about. You don't need to be in the Rune Cults section of the rulebook to have Rune Magic. The Black Fang Brotherhood and Oakfed are spirit cults, true cults, bigger and more widespread than a small shrine to a local spirit. I feel like I'm saying the same thing over, am I misunderstanding you?

I feel much the same about saying the same thing over again. One last attempt: 

Rune magic is magic gained from a god. ("The caster relies on power supplied by their god to cast the spell," "When an adventurer casts Rune magic, the caster acts as the deity," "Using a Rune spell literally channels part of the power of a god to affect the mundane world")

 

If the line between spirit and god was impermeable, then a spirit could not be a god, and should not be able to grant rune magic.

Therefore the true cult that a spirit cult develops into should not grant rune magic, because spirits are not gods and would not grant rune magic.

This would be despite spirit cults providing rune magic.

 

However, spirit cults do grant rune magic, suggesting that the line between spirit and god is not impermeable and that spirit cults are states between normal relationships with spirits and the worship of deities (or the lowest rung of cult, as suggested by page 269).

 

If we're still at loggerheads about this, it may be best to either agree to disagree, or take things to PM to avoid derailing any further.

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4 hours ago, Tindalos said:

If we're still at loggerheads about this

Thanks, i haven't seen this phrase before and i have learn a new thing!

 

About runes and gods, we can read the following thing in RQG, p 13:

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Runes are intrinsic to Glorantha. They are the cosmic powers that define Glorantha and are manifested by the gods. Known from the earliest prehistory, Runes suffuse everything in and about the world. Some have even changed over time!

The earliest gods are associated with Runes. Some philosophers hold that the gods themselves are merely per- sonifications of Runic forces. The real relationship between gods and Runes is likewise unclear: the very question uttered aloud in the wrong context has caused blood to be shed. Even the gods of knowledge are cryptic on this subject; the relationship may simply be beyond human comprehension.

So, perhaps, us, poor humans can not understand and still be at loggerheads about this! :) (And thanks Tindalos)

Edited by Pheres
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18 hours ago, Tindalos said:

I feel much the same about saying the same thing over again. One last attempt: 

Rune magic is magic gained from a god.

That statement is evidently not true, since there is rune magic that is not gained from gods. Sure, there are descriptions of how rune magic work, and they talk about it coming from gods because most of it does come from gods. Clearly those statements are biased towards gods, and do not represent literal and exclusive truths.

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5 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

That statement is evidently not true, since there is rune magic that is not gained from gods. Sure, there are descriptions of how rune magic work, and they talk about it coming from gods because most of it does come from gods. Clearly those statements are biased towards gods, and do not represent literal and exclusive truths.

To definitively end with this discussion, i can suggest everyone interested on this subject to read in the Glorantha sourcebook the Runes chapter and especially the What is magic sub chapter (p198). You can read things like that in it:

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Spirit magic (also called animism) concerns communication with the spirits that reside in the natural energy currents of the world. These spirits are typically associated with a specialized Rune power.

Spirits are associated with Rune power (specialized one) and that's how they can grant rune magic to their followers.

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On 8/6/2018 at 2:42 PM, Pheres said:

My point of view is that every gloranthans that have met a dog and a stone are knowing very well the distinctions between their nature and they could explain it in a very consistent way. But for gods and spirits, they can not... If they can not it's because the difference is not obvious! If it's not obvious, their can not be a huge difference in their nature, no?

There could be a huge difference. Just because that difference isn't obvious doesn't mean it's not huge. There are poisonous plants that look like other, non-poisonous plants but there is a huge difference if you eat one. Likewise the difference between a cup full of water and one full of salt water isn't obvious, until you taste it. 

 

I think that with gods and spirits in Glorantha is that not everyone is using the same criteria or the same methods to classify supernatural entities, and there is almost certainly some local bias or restrictions. The problem for us is that we don't know what criteria anybody uses in Glorantha to distinguished between the two. Off the top of my head, I'd assume that a god would require a certain amount of POW, an exsistence in godtime,  and some worshipers/followers, although just where the "breakpoints" are is anybody's guess. 

Edited by Atgxtg
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Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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On 8/7/2018 at 7:53 AM, Joerg said:

The difference between deity and spirit appears to be mainly its preferred habitat - God World or Spirit World. Now Spirit Travel gets you through the near Spirit Plane into deeper regions, and across boundaries delineating domains of various great entities.

Take for instance the Lowfires. Mahome, Gustbran and Oakfed are children of the god Lodril, and known to the Heortlings as gods.

The Praxians worship Oakfed as a Great Spirit, and are able to manifest him as such (without shattering the Compromise every time they do it).

The problem here is that once an entity has amassed a certain level of power/godhood, it may be encountered in various aspects. I have no doubt that the great spirit Oakfed is the same as the god Oakfed, but the entity you encounter in Prax when released is definitely the great spirit, not the deity. On the other hand, when called forth by a worshiper of Gustbran, Oakfed is the divine presence of that lowfire, possibly embodied by the worshiper, possibly using a fire elemental as its temporary body. Some tricks pertaining to that Great Spirit may fail to work against the divine entity, and vice versa, but on the whole they are the same.

 

That's a really good example, thanks.

In fact, at Moonbroth, one reason the Praxians lost was because the Lunars brought Lodril Priests who could command Oakfed and basically robbed them of using Wildfire as a weapon. Can't remember where I read that, though.

Gustbran is normally worshipped as a god and is is worshipped by the trolls of the Shadow Plateau. Mahome is normally worshipped as a goddess, but normally as a subcult of Ernalda.

Oakfed is the one who is a god to some and a spirit to others.

On 8/7/2018 at 7:53 AM, Joerg said:

In the end, we are faced with the elephant's ear, leg, tusk, trunk and belly all over.

Indeed we are, and that is a very good thing to remember in Glorantha.

I also like to think of people looking into a room through windows and seeing a powerful being. The shape, size and properties of each window mean that everyone sees different things while all looking at the same thing.

 

 

Edited by soltakss

Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

www.soltakss.com/index.html

Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here

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The difference between a small god and a spirit isn't a 'real' or hard distinction - its really a reflection of how you interact with them. Is a nymph, for example, a spirit or a small god? Depends who you ask. Even more so for the distinction be a god and a great spirit. But some beings are much easier to interact with via one mode than another, and the distinction between theist and animist practice is real if not very sharp, there is a big grey area of overlap but most practices are one or the other. 

So for beings that we would, back in the four worlds era, have called a god or spirit or essence, what we are saying is that it is much easier to interact with that being via a particular method of magic. That may, however, simply be due to an established body of practice - eg there is a long history of learning how to do it, and people around who can show you. Or it may be due to something about that beings intrinsic nature. Only the greatest magicians might know for sure. And they don't seem to agree. Mostly I think of it in terms of compatibility established practice. A being who is very strongly associated with the senses and emotion might be easy to contact via animist means (powerful and perhaps be overwhelming), seen as a dangerous demon that is hard to control by sorcerers, a powerful but extreme god by theists, and a being that must be confronted and transcended(but can teach a valuable message in the process)  by mystics. 

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So, getting back to the original Yinkin etc thread, something that has really been bugging me about RuneQuest Glorantha since I noticed it. 

Yinkin, Odayla, and Telmor are all said to be associated with Ancestor worship, or even combined with it. 

But within the rules most Daka Fal/Ancestor Worship Magic - eg Summon Ancestor, Incarnate Ancestor, Spirit Guardian or Spirit Melding - is Man Rune magic. Which is opposed to Beast Rune. 

So literally the only cults that are said to be associated with Daka Fal are the only ones intrinsically unsuited to it, and who can probably barely cast most Daka Fal magic. This seems a bit ridiculous to me. 

Mythically, it also seems a bit confusing to me that Man and Beast are opposed - many cults with the Beast rune are either explicitly (hsunchen) or esoterically (Odayla) about the unity of many and beast. 

Now, personally, I tend to think this shows that the RQG innovation of having Beast and Man opposed wasn't a great idea. Its kind of telling that almost the only specific use for the Rune in the game immediately jumps into problematic territory (and the other magical uses, for Waha magic, also jump straight to magical purposes that are associated with both Man and Beast (Call Founder), or the transition (Alter Creature), which is even more confusing). But I'm happy to hear other interpretations. 

 

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8 minutes ago, davecake said:

But within the rules most Daka Fal/Ancestor Worship Magic - eg Summon Ancestor, Incarnate Ancestor, Spirit Guardian or Spirit Melding - is Man Rune magic. Which is opposed to Beast Rune. 

A simple solution would be to substitute the Man Rune in those spells with the Beast Rune.

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1 minute ago, metcalph said:

A simple solution would be to substitute the Man Rune in those spells with the Beast Rune.

Absolutely. It does leave me still wondering why the Man and Beast Runes are considered opposed if they are treated as interchangeable in the most common Man rune magic. 

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1 minute ago, davecake said:

Absolutely. It does leave me still wondering why the Man and Beast Runes are considered opposed if they are treated as interchangeable in the most common Man rune magic. 

They are not interchangeable.  The type of ancestors summoned with the Man Rune spells are different from the type of ancestors summoned with the Beast Rune.  That it's not explained clearly is simply a function of lack of space in the rules more than anything else and I don't see it as a Dying of the Light.

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47 minutes ago, metcalph said:

The type of ancestors summoned with the Man Rune spells are different from the type of ancestors summoned with the Beast Rune.

In no meaningful way. There is no suggestion that Yinkin or Odayla cultists are from a line of exclusively Yinkin or Odayla cultists, and many of their ancestors may have no more connection to the Beast gods other than a loose ancestral line. And, of course, its explicit in the mythology of both that they are closely related to other gods with no other Beast connection. The average 'Alynx clan' that has an ancestral link to Yinkin is mostly made up of normal Orlanthi who just happen to have Yinkin is one of many far distant ancestors (SKoH pg 181), and have Orlanth as their primary god. The ancestor connection to Odayla seems even looser - all it really says in the cult writeup in Sartar Companion is that a few bloodlines are strongly associated with the cult. In neither case is being part of such a bloodline necessary to join the cult. Either way a great many of the ancestors summoned via ancestor worship are going to be exactly the same as any other ancestors. 

The idea that you use Beast rather than Man because you are summoning Beast ancestors makes some sense for Hsunchen, but not for the Orlanthi Beast gods. And then there are the Ernaldan Beast goddesses too, that are explicitly about domestication for the most part. 

So it seems that the idea of substituting the Beast rune for the Man rune is an acceptable rules patch for the opposition of Man and Beast, but makes not much mythic sense. 

Edited by davecake
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1 minute ago, davecake said:

In no meaningful way. There is no suggestion that Yinkin or Odayla cultists are from a line of exclusively Yinkin or Odayla cultists, and many of their ancestors may have no more connection to the Beast gods other than a loose ancestral line.

I didn't say they were exclusively Yinkin or Odaylan cultists, I said ancestors summoned with the Beast Rune, meaning cat (or bear) spirits,

Secondly you have confused between all ancestors (ie everybody you are descended from) as opposed to meaningful ancestors (the type that would be summoned by the spell).  Greg Stafford was making such a distinction in an White Dwarf magazine!  For a Yinkin worshipping his ancestors, only those related to Yinkin are going to be worthy of summons.  

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1 minute ago, metcalph said:

I said ancestors summoned with the Beast Rune, meaning cat (or bear) spirits,

 

Why would you assume that?

Its not mentioned anywhere, it seems to explicitly go against the justification for both cults being associated with ancestor worship (which is that both are associated with primarily human bloodlines that include animal ancestors), and the mythology of both. Effectively, in order to justify a rules patch as not just a rules patch, you've created new, otherwise undocumented, spiritual practices that have no reason to exist other than because of the implications of the rules patch. That seems a bit uncalled for to me. 

The more consistent answer as explained by the rules seems to me that there really is nothing more than the rules state (both are 'friendly' to Daka Fal, but nothing more), that Associate Cult status means a lot less than it did in RQ2 or 3 where it implied spell sharing, and all this is just expressed in a confusing way in the shortened cult version in the rules book and the long form write ups in the Gods book may clear things up. 

But I still, for my games, may go with 'Beast and Man are not incompatible', which seems to solve a lot of problems at a stroke. 

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3 minutes ago, davecake said:

Why would you assume that?

Why would I not?  It's a simple elegant solution which doesn't involve nitpicking over trivia and getting worked up about it.  I'm ignoring the rest of your belligerent post because it says nothing new.

 

 

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