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Manu

orlanthi cults in Umathela

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21 minutes ago, Manu said:

No Lightbringer Quest I imagine

I think there would be a Lightbringers Quest.  The God Learners knew of it and incorporated it into their Monomyth.  It's just that in Umathela, the local humans were all killed before it finished.

 

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I would have thought that Issaries was going to be important, as Issaries was of fundamental importance ti the Middle Sea Empire, as opposed to the God Learners. Issaries helped the Middle Sea Empire to spread and contact people all around the Middle Sea, including in Umathela. As a Lightbringer, he has a pretty important place in Orlanthi mythology, so would have definitely had a place. After the fall of the Middle Sea Empire, somne things would have been purged, but I very much doubt that Issaries would have been completely purged, as he is too useful.

Similarly, Umathela would have retained the Lightbringers, perhaps as minor cults. Ernalda would have been present, as she is related to Aldrya and the earth cults are generally friendly. I am not sure about the Thunder Brothers, as a lot of these were local to Genertela.

I cannot remember if the Umathelans were originally native or were all brought to the land in the First/Second Age. If they were native, they would have their original Orlanthi beliefs, perhaps adjusted by the Middle Sea Empire. They probably would not have been affected by the First Council and their attempts to awaken people and to rationalise the fragments of cults they found. However, if they were transported in the First/Second Age, they would have brought their beliefs from Genertela and would have had all the First Council insights.

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I got the Nine Lightbringers from Sandy Petersen, a post on the old Glorantha Digest if I recall correctly.

The Umathelans had been experimental subjects for the God Learners, so they sort of had to assemble their own Lightbringers without access to full pantheon.

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2 hours ago, alakoring said:

I got the Nine Lightbringers from Sandy Petersen, a post on the old Glorantha Digest if I recall correctly.

The Umathelans had been experimental subjects for the God Learners, so they sort of had to assemble their own Lightbringers without access to full pantheon.

The warrior woman (Phausia) therein looks like Yelorna/Sun Daughter, rather than Vinga.

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This might be too late an addition, but I've seen people discuss the possible Western/Malkioni origins of Lhankor Mhy before: the idea being that he is a deification of the Zzaburri caste archetype/function in an otherwise theistic context, possibly occurring during the Greater Darkness when many Malkioni supposedly fell to theism (the main "clues" being the scholarly role, writing, the diversity of magics, and on a more lighthearted note, the obligatory beards for both Lhankorites and Zzaburites.).

Now, regardless of whether this is true or not, it made me think about whether Lhankor Mhy's similarities to Umathelan Sedalpist Zzaburites might either a) make Lhankorites superfluous, being rolled into them, or b) influenced by them to such a degree that their forms and even mythic roles start mixing up.

Some mentioned Mralot earlier, which I think is a good bet given that the Guide mentions many of the Orlanthi as having given up the plow & cattle agriculture and instead practicing swidden horticulture and herding pigs (seemingly on the command of the elves, if I recall correctly). May or may not be a female version though.

I'm also considering the importance of a volcano god, given the geologically active nature of some of the Umathelan mountains, and more importantly the mythical role those mountains play in Doraddi mythology (ie. being raised by a volcano/mountain god to stop invaders). I'm not implying that the Doraddi necessarily shared their myths directly with the Orlanthi, but the elves might have similar stories, or the God Learners, or an intrepid God-Talker might have sensed the burning hotness and mythic power lying beneath them, which could only be Veskarthen/Lordil/Loddik/[Insert appropriate Hot Earth God name here], maybe even through explorative heroquesting.

There might even be some interesting interplay between the Storm Gods' mythical connection to the top of these peaks, and the Hot Earth God role "below/inside" them. I'm reminded of the story of how an enemy giant promised to build a wall around Storm Village against marrying the Orlanthi goddess of happiness. Perhaps it's the Hot Earth God that stands in for this role in Umathela, whether as a villain, buffoon or good guy, who knows. The Umathelan mountain range seem like a good stand-in for the role played by the Rockwood range in general, and Umath's Throne seems to be a suitable stand in for Kero Fin, Top of the World Mountain or Stormwalk as the local Orlanthi "Axis Mundi",  given the Orlanthi mythical adaptability (eg. during the Theyalan missionary expansion).

This also brings into question Mount Vedra, Baraku and Desero's Horde. If they indeed were some manner of (para-)Vinkgotlings, perhaps the Umathelan version of the raising of the Umathelan mountains is not that they were raised to resist a horde from the south (As in the Doraddi myths) - but to protect the Storm Tribe/Orlanthi from the heat/chaos from the south - or whatever (or would these winds be associated with Stormbull?)

A cursory googling seems to mention that Jeff answered someone's question about Umathelan grain/land goddesses elsewhere, and supposedly these are Vrala for Vralos and Enklosa for Enkloso (shocking! :P ) and they are apparently associated with peas, millet and barley and wheat. Nothing crazy there, in other words - except for that they apparently welcomed Aldrya, went into the underworld with Ernalda during the Great Darkness, and were protected by High King Elf.
https://2ndage.blogspot.com/2014/09/umathelan-grain-goddesses.html

This would seem to indicate that Aldrya, Flamal and High King Elf all have possibly larger roles in the Umathelan pantheon/mythology than their Genertelan counterparts, but I won't speculate too much beyond saying that there's potential for a lot of cool stuff. It always seemed to me that High King Elf had a role similar to both Elmal/Yelmalio and the Lightbringers, but what to do with that I can't say. Having High King Elf as one of the Lightbringers or as a pseudo-Elmal(io) could be cool, though. Maybe Ehilm truly died, but High King Elf kept things going. Again, pure speculation and wish-thinking on my part.

I just wanted to end this on the note that I didn't spend too much time on giving the deities region-appropriate names, so pardon any confusion, but juggling all the versions is a bit too much for me at times.

Edited by Sir_Godspeed
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1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:



There might even be some interesting interplay between the Storm Gods' mythical connection to the top of these peaks, and the Hot Earth God role "below/inside" them. I'm reminded of the story of how an enemy giant promised to build a wall around Storm Village against marrying the Orlanthi goddess of happiness. Perhaps it's the Hot Earth God that stands in for this role in Umathela, whether as a villain, buffoon or good guy, who knows. The Umathelan mountain range seem like a good stand-in for the role played by the Rockwood range in general, and Umath's Throne seems to be a suitable stand in for Kero Fin, Top of the World Mountain or Stormwalk as the local Orlanthi "Axis Mundi",  given the Orlanthi mythical adaptability (eg. during the Theyalan missionary expansion).
 

Remember that Kero Fin (a mountain, daughter of Larnste in Genertela) is the mother of Orlanth. Umathelan Orlanth is probably the son of a daughter of the volcano god. As his maternal grandfather, not only does he have a kinship right in Orlanth's house, but the story of Umath and the daughter of the mountain's courtship is probably different and important. Think Culhwch ac Olwen...

Where is Orlanth's mountain mother in Umathela?

Edited by jeffjerwin

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Kero Fin's seemingly unique relation to Orlanth is the one aspect that does seem problematic with my whole mountain-adaptation thing. That being said - do Ralian or Fronelan Orlanthi acknowledge Kero Fin as Orlanth's mother? Or do they have different genealogies to him? If we knew that, we could perhaps extrapolate what's possible for someone on the other side of the world.

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1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Kero Fin's seemingly unique relation to Orlanth is the one aspect that does seem problematic with my whole mountain-adaptation thing. That being said - do Ralian or Fronelan Orlanthi acknowledge Kero Fin as Orlanth's mother? Or do they have different genealogies to him? If we knew that, we could perhaps extrapolate what's possible for someone on the other side of the world.

I always inferred that each of Orlanth's sacred mountains is one of his many mothers [compare the multiple birthplaces of Zeus]. He has several scattered across central and western Genertela and presumably more in Umathela.

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58 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

presumably more in Umathela.

See the Guide p. 621 which shows the Sacred Mountains there.  

"In the God Time, the Storm Gods were very active in Umathela. Doraddi myths claim the cattle-herding horde of Desero invaded Pamaltela from here. The blue-skins of Fonrit believe Baraku, the Killer of Artmal, lives atop Umath’s Throne, while the storm-worshipers of Umathela know that Orlanth rules from that mountain peak and that his son Desero was born atop Mount Vedra. Near these mountains Air magic is particularly strong, something the Fonritians learned to their misfortune during the Season Wars."

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2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

This might be too late an addition, but I've seen people discuss the possible Western/Malkioni origins of Lhankor Mhy before: the idea being that he is a deification of the Zzaburri caste archetype/function in an otherwise theistic context, possibly occurring during the Greater Darkness (the main "clues" being the scholarly role, writing, the diversity of magics, and on a more lighthearted note, the obligatory beards for both Lhankorites and Zzaburites.).

I see Lhankor Mhy as the survivor of the Tadeniti massacre. How this rhymes with his "son of Mostal" identification is a bit confusing, although I think that "son of Urtiam" might mean "son of the Celestial Mountain".

I won't deny that the Vadeli had a valid grief against the Tadeniti, who either taught or inspired Zzabur to flay his enemies (Vadel and his tribal ancestor sons?) alive to write the secrets of magic on their skins.

Oh, and his companion Goldentongue/Silvertongue is a Kachasti.

 

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Now, regardless of whether this is true or not, it made me think about whether Lhankor Mhy's similarities to Umathelan Sedalpist Zzaburites might either a) make Lhankorites superfluous, being rolled into them, or b) influenced by them to such a degree that their forms and even mythic roles start mixing up.

There is one big difference between the Lhankoring method (relying on inspiration) and the Malkioni method of deductive logic. LM was the provider of data for the God Learners, but for the number crushing, they turned to devices that the Mostali claim were stolen or at least copied from them.

 

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Some mentioned Mralot earlier, which I think is a good bet given that the Guide mentions many of the Orlanthi as having given up the plow & cattle agriculture and instead practicing swidden horticulture and herding pigs (seemingly on the command of the elves, if I recall correctly). May or may not be a female version though.

That's also a back-track to Slontos, where the Entruli pig folk originated from. Entru and Mralot are the divine names of the boar, and Entra and Mralota of the sow.

Nowadays, Hykimi (hsunchen) Mraloti inhabit northern Ramalia. I am fairly sure that the Entruli who fell under the rule of the Serpentbeast Brotherhood (led by the Pralori) weren't Hykimi, but rather Earth folk with a storm protector. Back in the days of the RQ-Daily, we brought up Mralonth, the Storm Boar. That may be a name for Orlanth, or a son of Orlanth, or just the Storm aspect of Entru (who was pointed out to be rather similar in consonants to Genert, and might also have been an aspect of the Earth King).

 

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I'm also considering the importance of a volcano god, given the geologically active nature of some of the Umathelan mountains,

Most Umathelan mountains are really far away from human habitation, and probably extremely dangerous to travel to in physical form.

Mount Vedra, the birthplace of Desero, the (demigod) leader of the horde, lies on the border to Fonrit, again very far from most Umathelan Orlanthi habitation. Other than Kallima and parts of Kormarkan, no Orlanthi tribes have any holy mountain within range for their rites.

Which leads me to the consideration that their storm god may not have that much of a mountain aspect, but something else. A lightning-torn tree may be the usual holy center of a tribe, and it is possible that they have a myth how a lightning striking a dryad's tree led to the birth of Orlanth (by whichever name they know him).

 

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

and more importantly the mythical role those mountains play in Doraddi mythology (ie. being raised by a volcano/mountain god to stop invaders).

Balumbasta raising the Fensi mountains is very much a parallel to Larnste sowing the Rockwoods, although the seed/growth meme of Genertela goes pretty much against the Doraddi hostility to tree-like growth.

I think that the mountains are more the result of a feat of raw strength than they are poured out by fire. I don't see any hint of volcanism for the Tarmo Mountains.

 

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I'm not implying that the Doraddi necessarily shared their myths directly with the Orlanthi, but the elves might have similar stories, or the God Learners, or an intrepid God-Talker might have sensed the burning hotness and mythic power lying beneath them, which could only be Veskarthen/Lordil/Loddik/[Insert appropriate Hot Earth God name here], maybe even through explorative heroquesting.

Balumbasta the Mountain Raiser was First and strongest of the Bomonoi, humanoid demigods or deities of fire, and not so much associated with volcanism.

 

 

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

This also brings into question Mount Vedra, Baraku and Desero's Horde. If they indeed were some manner of (para-)Vinkgotlings,

Even though Baraku is presented as the Pamaltelan version of Orlanth, I don't think that the horde is comparable to the almost urban Vingkotlings. These pastoral invaders are an earlier form of Storm worshippers, not that different from Storm Bull leading his people (two-legged and four-legged) down the Spike, or early Storm invaders into e.g. Pelanda. The Andam Horde or the bull riders of Charg are very similar to Desero's attack on the Artmali.

 

 

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

perhaps the Umathelan version of the raising of the Umathelan mountains is not that there were raised to resist a horde from the south - but to protect the Storm Tribe/Orlanthi from the heat/chaos from the south - or whatever (or would these winds be associated with Stormbull?)

There were no humans in Umathela after the Vadeli empire was flooded in the Breaking of the World. The earliest Orlanthi arrived shortly after the end of the Gbaji Wars, around 475, when the last of the riverine reptile folk called Lascerdans were exterminated by the aldryami. There was no Orlanthi presence prior to the Second Age. If there were any suvivors from Desero's horde, they might be found in Fonrit, but we don't see any pointers in this direction.

 

 

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Well, I can only say that I've still got a lot to read up on it seems, and I appreciate the correction.

That being said, with regards to mountains - there is Umath's Throne which supposedly is the seat of a storm god. How important it is cultically I have no idea, but certainly the Umathelan Orlanthi seem to have gone out of their way to name it after someone special (unless, of course, this is another case of outdated material). There's also the spur of mountains dividing Enkloso and Vralos, which seem more reachable than the rest of the chain. I know the Guide had these maps of the radius around important Storm Mountains, but only Genertelan mountains come to mind - I'm not sure if they showed any images from Pamaltela. Your point on giving the storm gods an association with trees is interesting though. Makes me think of how Thor/Donar and Perun are all associated with the Oak in PIE mythologies, because lighting tend to strike the tallest trees.

I should mention that Balumbasta literally used to be called Lodril in the older material I've seen, so while the canon probably has been refined, there seems to at least have been a conceptual similarity in the mind of Stafford at some point. Whether that deserves to be carried in into the more modern Doraddi myth, or be cast away as outdated terminology, or even dismissed as sloppy God-Learner lingo I can't comment on.

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8 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

There's also the spur of mountains dividing Enkloso and Vralos, which seem more reachable than the rest of the chain. I know the Guide had these maps of the radius around important Storm Mountains, but only Genertelan mountains come to mind - I'm not sure if they showed any images from Pamaltela.

On page 621 of the guide, there's a map of the radius from Umath's Throne and Mount Vedra.

Umath's Throne looks to be the the Pamaltelan equivalent of Top of the World or Kero Fin, although with a much smaller radius.

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13 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Balumbasta literally used to be called Lodril

My current thought is that many of the deportees came from the area prehistorically known as "Lodrilela," making room for the cultures we know now with only occasional survivals (or revivals) like the Caladraland tribes. Maybe they carried "Umath" with them and saw his signs everywhere above the horizon.

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7 hours ago, Tindalos said:

On page 621 of the guide, there's a map of the radius from Umath's Throne and Mount Vedra.

Umath's Throne looks to be the the Pamaltelan equivalent of Top of the World or Kero Fin, although with a much smaller radius.

Thanks. :)

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On 8/12/2018 at 8:57 PM, jeffjerwin said:

The warrior woman (Phausia) therein looks like Yelorna/Sun Daughter, rather than Vinga.

To me, she was closer to Humakt. (I can’t recall if this was from Sandy or not.)

Tracked down http://glorantha.temppeli.org/digest/gd8/2001.03/2170.html but haven’t located Sandy’s original online.

Edited by alakoring
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45 minutes ago, alakoring said:

To me, she was closer to Humakt. (I can’t recall if this was from Sandy or not.)

Tracked down http://glorantha.temppeli.org/digest/gd8/2001.03/2170.html but haven’t located Sandy’s original online.

Maybe both and also Elmal. She's of the Fire/Sky Tribe though, and seeking vengeance for the Sun's murder. If she's Sun Daughter, the rapprochement with Tyloque/Orlanth also corresponds with the forgiveness of Elmal, and hence sets the stage for the 'making right' of the rekindling of the Sun.

Edited by jeffjerwin

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Hmm, given it’s from Sandy, this is probably relevant 

Quote

The word Euphausia derives from Greek eu for good or true, combined with -phausia for shining or light emitting.

though I still don’t see any Fire Tribe Lightbringers myself. (Elmal guards the stead.)

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55 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

I'm an idiot.

M A L K I O N
L A N K O (R) M I

And now why is it surprising that Lanko(r)mi has sorcery?

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4 hours ago, scott-martin said:

I'm an idiot.

M A L K I O N
L A N K O (R) M I

Isn't it the other way around, Malkion® is the corporate wing of the Grey Sages

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On 8/25/2018 at 11:11 AM, Joerg said:

the seed/growth meme of Genertela goes pretty much against the Doraddi hostility to tree-like growth.

The Doraddi are not hostile to tree like growth in general. They like several specific trees. They are hostile to forests and Aldryami, but that’s different. 

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