How to translate God Learner?

[The God Learner]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Maybe Theologician might be the Greek-ish version.

 

At any rate, I'll veto 'theosophist' right away. 

[Darius West]

I think Joerg's original point about the vagueness of the term "God Learner" is completely valid.  It smacks of a mistranslation, or a hybridized word combination from a more primitive society that doesn't understand the core concepts.  On the face of the matter, one would hardly say that someone who "learns about gods" has done anything wrong, for is not every priest, acolyte and initiate one who "learns about gods"?  So how does this innocent combination of words turn into a harsh pejorative for blasphemy and heresy?

Now we get the term God Learner as a hand-me-down from cultures that were never very intimately involved with them.  While there were clashes between the EWF and the Jrusteli Empire in Heortland and elsewhere, due to the cold war-like relations between these empires, they never seemed to overtly contest each others' control of territory, instead relying on insurgencies to undermine each others' legitimacy and dominance.  Can we say that there was God Learner influence in the rise of the True Golden Horde?  Of course not, and it need not have been so, but it remains possible that the Jrusteli infiltrated via Pent.  We can say, however, that the Orlanthi Traditionalists were a political football that fought both sides.  So from this, as it is from these people that we get the term God Learner, that we must also understand that it would have had negative connotations, and it is that intrinsic hostility which is not borne out by the term "God Learner" and its journey to us over time.

Now back to the original premise, rather than the singular god of "Deus" or "Theos" we should be referring to a plethora of deities, as in "Pantheo" from which we obtain the obvious "Pantheon".  It is possible that due to their monotheism, and the ignorance of the people who coined the abusive term, that the "many" connotation was dropped.

Next, I offer a word that derives from learning, and wisdom, which has already been used.  That is "Sophist".  Of course the term sophist is also a term of abuse, as Socrates argued persuasively against the sophists through Plato.  But more importantly, we get the drift word "sophisticated" meaning "tainted" or "corrupt" learning.  The old joke once told was that one could call young ladies glamorous and sophisticated and they would assume that they were being complimented, when in fact they were being told they were fake and tainted.  So my point is, that as the original term must have been one of abuse, a politically laden swear word, much like "heretic", "scab", "traitor" etc, the original term would have been something like "Pantheosophisticate", which is then shortened to "theosophisticate", and is ultimately dumbed down to "God Learner" thanks to the pidgin effect of Trade Talk, ultimately losing all its pejorative punch, to the point where future generations may begin to wonder what all the fuss was about, and why people were so anti-God Learner in the first place.

[Julian Lord]

If it were from a Latin equivalent, the English would be "Gods Disciple" (probably a Latin Diis Discipulus)

[Jens]

@Joerg I'm 5 years late to the conversation, but to me the God Learners weren't just researchers, they were experimenters. I'd vote for something like Götterwissenschaftler, or perhaps refer to them as angewandte Theologen.

[Darius West]

Remember that "God Learner" is what their barbarian enemies called the Jrusteli.  The Jrusteli called the folk who invaded the myths of other cultures "Hwarosian" who engaged in the Hwarosian Mysteries" afaik.

Edited April 4, 2023 by Darius West

[French Desperate WindChild]

49 minutes ago, Jens said:

@Joerg I'm 5 years late to the conversation, but to me the God Learners weren't just researchers, they were experimenters. I'd vote for something like Götterwissenschaftler, or perhaps refer to them as angewandte Theologen.

wouu thanks for that, i didn't read this thread 🙂

 

From my perspective I understand that as "the one who learn to become god" (or to learn to get the power of the god)

so there is not a relationship between teacher and student.

More something like spy / scholar / scientist /  thief. then add good / evil  / mad depending on your belief on their goal

 

in french I read "Erudit de l'ambigu" as @Joerg noticed,

but there is /was another version : "apprenti des dieux" (so the gods have an apprentice,  the GL) but with a little ambiguity you may understand "the GL apprenticeship is to become a god" (= apprenti dieu)

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, Jens said:

@Joerg I'm 5 years late to the conversation, but to me the God Learners weren't just researchers, they were experimenters. I'd vote for something like Götterwissenschaftler, or perhaps refer to them as angewandte Theologen.

I think the simplest answer is likely to be, what did they call them in the German edition of RQG: https://shop.uhrwerk-verlag.de/uhrwerk-rollenspiele/runequest/1551/runequest-rollenspiel-in-glorantha-pdf?number=UWV8200PDF

 

[Oracle]

22 minutes ago, David Scott said:

I think the simplest answer is likely to be, what did they call them in the German edition of RQG: https://shop.uhrwerk-verlag.de/uhrwerk-rollenspiele/runequest/1551/runequest-rollenspiel-in-glorantha-pdf?number=UWV8200PDF

 

Just in case you do not own the German edition of RQG: the translation of God Learner used is 'Gottlerner'.

So that's the same translation, that has been used in the former translation of RQ3. But see Jörg's comment about this translation nearly 5 years ago:

 

Edited April 4, 2023 by Oracle

[Jens]

“Gottlerner” is certainly the most straight forward translation, but agreed it misses nuance (although frankly so does “God Learner”).  I suppose it’s an easier term in Tradetalk than “experimental epistemologist”.

[Joerg]

Ironically, I have started to officially be "one of the God Learners" as per the podcast.

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Remember that "God Learner" is what their barbarian enemies called the Jrusteli. 

These enemies included other Malkioni who disagreed with their findings, like the Hrestoli of Fronela who had Irensavalist leanings.

At first, the Jrusteli religious movement learned about their own (Invisible) God, which is why it is God in the singular. The studies of other deities other than for their weaknesses to sorcery grew out of contact with the Slontan-descended Olodo (whose homeland had received a thin Malkioni veneer already in the Grey Age or the Dawn Age, even before Lalmor of the Vathmai brought the Lightbringer methods to his distant kin - Boltror the Traveler, the serpent-legged son of Sonmalos, got his wife Pamala "from the East".).

 

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

The Jrusteli called the folk who invaded the myths of other cultures "Hwarosian" who engaged in the Hwarosian Mysteries" afaik.

That is a later definition of "God Learner" which might be better with the plural of divinities rather than the singularity. While that distinction could be made in English, too, it becomes fairly explicit in German language.

The combination of fragmentary Arkati documentation about heroquesting and the forcible invasion of other peoples' rites and myths grew out of the consolidation of the Invisible God philosophy.

The Zistorite experiment to build a machine god is yet another "god learning" experience, both in learning to construct a mechanical and flesh machine deity and in learning about the abilities of such a deity.

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

At first, the Jrusteli religious movement learned about their own … God, which is why it is God in the singular.

Hmm, I don’t think English works like that:

• horse whisperer
• dog trainer
• pigeon fancier

Likely many horses, dogs, and pigeons involved. A pigeon fancier doesn’t have to start with only one bird.

Spoiler

We would never say:

• horses whisperer
• dogs trainer
• pigeons fancier

But we would say (if pushed):

• whisperer to horses
• trainer of dogs
• fancier of pigeons

Basically, we are a rum lot with a broken language.

Which is not to say that they didn’t start with one god and move on from there — you just cannot read that off the name.

But perhaps you are pulling our legs. It seems likely.

Edited April 4, 2023 by mfbrandi
too many justs

[Minlister]

Personally, I use a name derived from Greek, "Théognoste", it is a French version, but Theognost or Theognostic, also works in English. Like "agnostic".

It is based on theos, god, and gnosis, knowledge, with the added flavour of a reference to the gnostic sect of the Late Antiquity, also a bunch of serious weirdoes. So "people seeking knowledge from/about gods". The ambiguity between "from" and "about" is well-preserved.

The use of Greek roots, instead of English/German/French/whatever, also gives a "foreign" and "high culture" flavour in line with the fact that the Jrusteli were foreigners for most of people conquered by their empire. 

You could go also for Theagnostic, with the added "privative" prefix "a", in order to stress their atheistic approach.

So yes, maybe Theagnostic, which would be easy to convert in any language (Théagnoste in French, Theagnostiker in German, I think, Teagnostico in italian, etc) to be consistent, would be the best choice in my mind.

Edited April 5, 2023 by Minlister

[mfbrandi]

There seems to be an equivocation here between:

1. translating ‘god learner’;
2. finding a better — more appropriate — name for the Godlearners.

Is that fair?

[Minlister]

@mfbrandi

Yes, you are right, my post is misleading; I just wanted to add explanations in English, but my main point was that I translated Godlearner in French by "Théognoste" (or Théagnoste which I will now adopt) and that it is a solution easy to apply in German, Italian, or any other language that that support the Greek roots used in the composite.

[mfbrandi]

5 hours ago, Minlister said:

Yes, you are right, my post is misleading

Yeah, didn’t mean to have a go at you — it was just a question about the thread in general. And obviously, discussing both is fine.