How many mastered runes has a philosopher of the cult of Lankor Mhy

[Aeric]

You receive one technique and one rune plus command and truth if you select sorcery option of your cult?

Edited August 10, 2018 by Aeric

[womble]

... and know 6 spells, I think (3 chosen off the Cult Sorcery list from Cult, 3 chosen without specific restriction, though other facets of the character might preclude certain choices, from Occupation). Seems right to me, just from reading. The Sorcery chapter mentions the Philosopher profession, and everyone else's Occupation skills and benefits stack with their Cult bonuses, so it wouldn't seem fair if Lhankor Mhy Cult knowledge didn't stack with knowledge gained elsewhere.

They get +20 to one of the spells they learn as a Philosopher and +10 to the other two, and can add 3 +10s to spells from the Lhankor Mhy list (even if they had learnt them from their Occupation, I would say; they're separate steps in character creation).

 

[Edit] Assuming you're asking about character generation in RQ:G...[/edit]

Edited August 10, 2018 by womble
Clarification

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, Aeric said:

You receive one technique and one rune plus command and truth if you select sorcery option of your cult?

No, page 384

Quote

Mastering New Runes or Techniques

A sorcerer starts by mastering one Rune and one technique, as described in the Philosopher occupation on page 70.

Page 76

Quote

Truth Rune and the technique of Command

The rune you master and the technique received are predefined. Otherwise you will start better than other sorcerers. 

[Tindalos]

7 minutes ago, David Scott said:

The rune you master and the technique received are predefined. Otherwise you will start better than other sorcerers. 

So Lhankor Mhy cultists don't gain those benefits unless they've got the Philosopher occupation?

 

So only Philosopher Lhankor Mhy Cultists would use sorcery?

[womble]

I don't see why they don't stack. A Philosopher who Initiates into another Cult would get additional Spirit Magic, since they're not Cosmologically exclusive, so going into LM seems like a subpar choice. Everyone else's Cult and Occupation stack: a Warrior who joins Humakt gets to pick non-Humakti weapons to improve if they want, or they can double-down on swordsmanship. The Assistant Shaman gets their Second Sight and extra spirit magic in addition to anything learned from their Cult.

[David Scott]

2 hours ago, Tindalos said:

So only Philosopher Lhankor Mhy Cultists would use sorcery?

There are three occupational paths for lhankor Mhy, scribe, philosopher and priest. Only philosophers get to master one rune and technique.

2 hours ago, womble said:

I don't see why they don't stack. A Philosopher who Initiates into another Cult would get additional Spirit Magic, since they're not Cosmologically exclusive

If you are a sorcerer, you don’t want any spirit magic as it subtracts from your Free Int as do sorcery spells. the more Free Int the more manipulation. My sorcery player picked up on that very quick. Six spells from your Int if it’s 18 only leaves 12. If you want to get your damage to 3d6, duration to a week and range to 2.5km, you know no spirit magic.

[Joerg]

13 minutes ago, David Scott said:

If you are a sorcerer, you don’t want any spirit magic as it subtracts from your Free Int as do sorcery spells.

Not quite true. If you are a sorcerer, you don't want to burden your mind permanently with spirit magic, but you might want to have it long enough to enchant the knowledge to some item and then clear your mind again.

 

[David Scott]

15 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Not quite true. If you are a sorcerer, you don't want to burden your mind permanently with spirit magic, but you might want to have it long enough to enchant the knowledge to some item and then clear your mind again.

While true, in gameplay it was more likely that the POW would be spent on sorcery enchantments or magic point matrices. Likewise you need to know the enchantment.

[womble]

21 minutes ago, David Scott said:

There are three occupational paths for lhankor Mhy, scribe, philosopher and priest. Only philosophers get to master one rune and technique.

The character generation description doesn't say that. A character with the Scribe or Priest Occupations could elect to learn sorcery in the Cult step of the process, as far as I can tell - "Cultitsts trained in sorcery..." could mean "trained by the Cult" or "trained by another master before entering the Cult. And a LM Philosopher would still be a better Sorceror even if their Sorcery was restricted to that one possibility of Cult knowledge because they get those extra spell skill points.

26 minutes ago, David Scott said:

If you are a sorcerer, you don’t want any spirit magic as it subtracts from your Free Int as do sorcery spells. the more Free Int the more manipulation. My sorcery player picked up on that very quick. Six spells from your Int if it’s 18 only leaves 12. If you want to get your damage to 3d6, duration to a week and range to 2.5km, you know no spirit magic.

Or if you don't feel the need for that degree of manipulation, you can spare a bit for useful Spirit Magic; if you feel the need later for more Free INT, you can enchant Matrices or just forget the Spirit Magic. It's not like LM have any particular bias against Spirit Magic.

You can also look at the Seven Mothers Cult, where there is no offered Sorcery path, though it's one of the Cults that Philosopher defaults to. They get Spirit Magic foisted on them too.

Reading the Malkioni and Aeolian Sorceror descriptions on p389, it seems the Malkioni apprentice gets three Runes and two Techniques, and the Aeolian gets two and one. So both of those are better than an L-M if Philosophy as an Occupation doesn't stack with the Cult's teachings. The L-M description on the same page only mentions apprentice scribes who've spent their entire life in the Cult, not anyone who's come to the Cult after learning the basics from somewhere else.

I missed the errata thread. Is this something that came up in that which needs clarifying for future revisions? Or are we just comparing our own opinions?

[David Scott]

1 minute ago, womble said:

Or are we just comparing our own opinions?

Just comparing opinions based on what’s happened in my game. The game changer for LM is that they get rune magic as well as sorcery if they choose the philosopher path. And that’s how we played it with the Lunars too. From a book keeping perspective in game our socerers only used sorcery, heal body and enchantments.

[Tindalos]

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

If you are a sorcerer, you don’t want any spirit magic as it subtracts from your Free Int as do sorcery spells. the more Free Int the more manipulation. My sorcery player picked up on that very quick. Six spells from your Int if it’s 18 only leaves 12. If you want to get your damage to 3d6, duration to a week and range to 2.5km, you know no spirit magic.

Do the 3 LM sorcery spells also replace the ones known by a philosopher then?

If they do, then that still makes the LM have more powerful sorcery than other sorcerers (+5% to one spell), and if not then they're either far more powerful or much weaker (as your sorcerers don't want to know too many sorcery spells either, for the same reason as spirit magic spells.)

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

There are three occupational paths for lhankor Mhy, scribe, philosopher and priest. Only philosophers get to master one rune and technique.

I just looked at the example character Sorala. She's got the scribe occupation rather than the Philosopher one, and still has Truth and Command mastered.

Edited August 10, 2018 by Tindalos
Adding another comment.

[Pentallion]

On 8/10/2018 at 7:01 AM, David Scott said:

There are three occupational paths for lhankor Mhy, scribe, philosopher and priest. Only philosophers get to master one rune and technique.

It would appear that you erred on that part David.   The section on sorcery page 389 says:

Quote

Lhankor Mhy apprentice scribes (lay members) are taught
logical reasoning and wisdom literature as part of their
training. Most apprentices begin their studies between the
ages of 6 and 15.
Upon initiation into the cult, the initiate is taught to
master the Truth Rune and the technique of Command.

This jibes with the pregenerated character Sorala, who knows Truth and Command and 3 spells.  However, a philosopher seems to have access to more spells than a scribe.

While Philosopher gives access to a rune and a technique per page 70:

Quote

Philosophers learn sorcery, and
start having mastered the understanding of one Rune and
one technique (see the Sorcery chapter).

  The Lhankor Mhy cult does state on page 76:

Quote

Cult Sorcery: Cultists trained in sorcery start as having
mastered the principles of the Truth Rune and the technique
of Command (see page 381)

 

So this can be interpreted as the one rune and one technique a philosopher starts with having to be Truth and Command if they are Lhankor Mhy.  But this is probably NOT how it is done when one looks at what a Malkioni gets as early as age 13:  3 runes and 2 techniques.  No, it's much more likely what happens is the philosopher occupation gives a rune and technique of the players choice and that the LM cult then gives Truth and Command.  That gives an LM philosopher 2 runes and 2 techniques.  Less than a malkioni, but more than a scribe.  The Scribe class just gets Truth and Command.

Also, Philosopher gives three spells of the players choice as an occupation and Lhankor Mhy cult gives three spells from a limited list.

So while an LM scribe would start with 3 spells from the limited list and Command/Truth, the philosopher seems to get Command/Truth another rune and another technique and 6 spells (or, the player could sink the occupation %'s into the 3 spells the LM cult gives, making him more skilled than a scribe in his 3 spells.)

This seems reasonable for a starting philosopher compared to a starting scribe.

 

 

[Joerg]

4 minutes ago, Pentallion said:

So this can be interpreted as the one rune and one technique a philosopher starts with having to be Truth and Command if they are Lhankor Mhy.  But this is probably NOT how it is done when one looks at what a Malkioni gets as early as age 13:  3 runes and 2 techniques. 

Without wanting to jump in on the issue of whether career and cult should add up (the same question will crop up for other sorcerous cultures), is it exactly beneficial to know more than one technique?

There is no way you can unlearn a mastered rune or a technique.

Is there some other advantage than paying half the MP for having exactly the required technique(s) for a spell? (And, in resonance with the unfortunate way "misapplied worship" and "concentrated worship" worked out with Hero Wars and HQ1, wouldn't using a different technique than exactly the one used for the spell be the normal situation? Would "you save half the MP when using the exact technique or rune demanded in the spell" have been a good way to describe the game mechanic, doubling the basic cost as the standard case?)

INT cannot be raised (permanently) by non-exceptional means (although you could work on your Fire Rune development). That means that learning additional techniques will limit your ability to manipulate your magic even more.

Spells can be "tucked away" by inscribing them (blowing a few points of POW, which can also add to manipulation). Runes are the real bottle-neck. In order to be able to cast just about any spell, you only need one technique (if it is command or tap) but a dozen runes or more - two elements (not counting moon, and overlapping only in one derived element) to cover all five, four powers to have all four pairs, four forms (man beast plant spirit) and two oddballs (chaos, moon). That is of course beyond normal human ability - you'd need an INT of at least 24 to learn this many.

Every extra technique reduces your ultimate flexibility wrt mastering runes.

Roleplay may suggest you to take choices that go against this minmaxing, too, but it would be nice to know whether the rules offer incentives to learn more than either Command or Tap as a technique.

E.g. researching spells. Can you research spells using an inferred technique, or should your character have exactly the techniques and runes for that spell?

 

If there is no such benefit other than saving MP, can a sorcerer receiving multiple techniques decide to leave extra points unused in favor of more Runes to master?

 

[Pentallion]

2 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Without wanting to jump in on the issue of whether career and cult should add up (the same question will crop up for other sorcerous cultures), is it exactly beneficial to know more than one technique?

There is no way you can unlearn a mastered rune or a technique.

Is there some other advantage than paying half the MP for having exactly the required technique(s) for a spell? (And, in resonance with the unfortunate way "misapplied worship" and "concentrated worship" worked out with Hero Wars and HQ1, wouldn't using a different technique than exactly the one used for the spell be the normal situation? Would "you save half the MP when using the exact technique or rune demanded in the spell" have been a good way to describe the game mechanic, doubling the basic cost as the standard case?)

INT cannot be raised (permanently) by non-exceptional means (although you could work on your Fire Rune development). That means that learning additional techniques will limit your ability to manipulate your magic even more.

Spells can be "tucked away" by inscribing them (blowing a few points of POW, which can also add to manipulation). Runes are the real bottle-neck. In order to be able to cast just about any spell, you only need one technique (if it is command or tap) but a dozen runes or more - two elements (not counting moon, and overlapping only in one derived element) to cover all five, four powers to have all four pairs, four forms (man beast plant spirit) and two oddballs (chaos, moon). That is of course beyond normal human ability - you'd need an INT of at least 24 to learn this many.

Every extra technique reduces your ultimate flexibility wrt mastering runes.

Roleplay may suggest you to take choices that go against this minmaxing, too, but it would be nice to know whether the rules offer incentives to learn more than either Command or Tap as a technique.

E.g. researching spells. Can you research spells using an inferred technique, or should your character have exactly the techniques and runes for that spell?

 

If there is no such benefit other than saving MP, can a sorcerer receiving multiple techniques decide to leave extra points unused in favor of more Runes to master?

 

Free INT is only reduced by known spells, not techniques.  Your INT limits the number of techniques you can master, but the techniques you have mastered has no affect upon your Free INT.

[Joerg]

4 minutes ago, Pentallion said:

Free INT is only reduced by known spells, not techniques.  Your INT limits the number of techniques you can master, but the techniques you have mastered has no affect upon your Free INT.

Correct, manipulation limit isn't affected. But the number of runes plus techniques you can master still is limited by your INT minus 11. A sorcerer with only slightly above average INT could already max out his maximum capacity with those initial points if receiving that many techniques and runes.

[Pentallion]

Yes, he would, but then, he might be adivsed by his GM not to take a philosopher if he's that stupid and stick to a scribe

[Aeric]

So this topic genetates as many doubts for everybody than for me.

[womble]

In the end, it's your game. If the L-M sorc would be a limelight-hogging monster, stealing the show and making everyone else irrelevant with their extra bits of Sorcery knowledge, then they shouldn't get them. If that's not the case, it's hard to see why they should be 'penalised' by not having their Occupation and Cult stack like everyone else.

The 'Cults' stanza in a Profession description is described as "The Cults commonly associated with that Occupation." For example, a Philosopher who doesn't know any offensive Sorcery, or "Tap" could join Chalana Arroy and get Rune Magic. Just because CA isn't one of the Cults mentioned in the Philosopher entry doesn't mean a Philosopher isn't allowed to be an Initiate of the Cult.

Going back to the Lhankor Mhy example, it's entirely possible to conceive that the Sorcery mentioned in the L-M Cult entry for Character generation is just that which they are automatically taught, while the Philosopher Occupation's Rune, Technique and Spells represent that which has been learned in the 3 years between coming-of-age and game start at 21y.o. Just because the Occupation step is before the Cult step doesn't mean that all the elements of Philosopher are in place at the point of Initiation into the Cult. Philosopher-occupation L-M Initiates should have more Sorcery than other Sorcery-adept L-M Initiates who've chosen Scribe or Priest (or a less stereotypical occupation for a Knowledge Initiate) as their Occupation. They should also have more Sorcery than Philosophers [from | who've chosen] other Cults.

  

 

[Pentallion]

6 hours ago, Aeric said:

So this topic genetates as many doubts for everybody than for me.

No, I'm absolutely sure Womble and I have spelled it out correctly.

[Aeric]

The fact that you have to reason it and explain why you would do consider it your way proves that RAW (Rules as Written) the question is not clear.

[womble]

Just because I've been open-minded doesn't mean I have much in the way of doubt how I'd run it. My instinct (read "opinion formed from having read things, but without conscious recall of the precise reasons why") was always that Occupation and Cult will stack unless it expressly says they don't. Any 'reasoning' is just  myself making sure I understand where that understanding developed from and walking the reader through my train of thought in case they hadn't read something relevant.

[Pentallion]

8 hours ago, Aeric said:

The fact that you have to reason it and explain why you would do consider it your way proves that RAW (Rules as Written) the question is not clear.

No, it only proves that someone needed it clarified for them. Sometimes something crystal clear to others is totally mystifying to me.   Times like those, someone explaining how it works helps.  Doesn't mean the rules need clarifying, just means it wasn't clear to me.

that's why we ask questions on forums.

[David Scott]

So in light of this discussion I'vegone through the latest Gods of Glorantha draft to see if this throws any light this thread.

Lay members - no sorcery taught. Apprentices/students aged between 6-15. 

Initiates:

Quote

Initiates are taught to master the intellectual implications of the Truth Rune and the sorcerous technique of Command. Additional Runes and techniques can later be learned if an appropriate book can be found or if a teacher can be located and persuaded. Only those initiated into the cult are ever taught sorcery.

It then lists the spells from RQ. The Lhankor Mhy cult teaches a limited number of sorcery spells from a collection of documents called the Torvald Fragments.

Quote

Those initiates studying sorcery rarely learn spirit magic as it interferes with their sorcerous potential. 

Looking at the actual spells for insight:

Normal MP cost - Can be cast with Truth & Command

Reveal Rune (Truth/Command)

Solace of the Logical Mind (Truth/Command)

x2 MP cost

Logician (Truth/Summon)

Total Recall (Truth/Summon)

x4 MP cost

Logical Clarity (Illusion/Dispel)

Not available (missing mastery)

Enhance INT (Fire/Summon)

Identify Otherworld Entity (Truth/Spirit/Command)

Geomancy (Truth/Earth/Summon)

Speak to Mind (Truth/Man/Command)

---

So any LM occupation can learn sorcery. It's likely that as a lay member they'd know spirit magic.IMHO scribes could have 3 spells and philosophers 6. There are actually only 5 spells actually cast-able by a starting character. It would seem that the next rune that a PC would master is Fire, so they can cast Enhance INT. The minor runes of Fire are Earth and Water, so that would get access to Geomancy as well. The last two would mean mastering Man and Spirit. 

There are also the INT limits, a LM with full access to all the Torvald Fragments spells would have an minimum INT of 16 (with a free INT of 7).

 

 

[Joerg]

If the LM cult doesn't teach those masteries (Fire/Earth, Spirit, Man), philosophers still might have access to them through their occupation if that occupation includes contact with non-cultist sorcerers (Aeolians, God Forgot, weird immigrants to Nochet, Karse or Rhigos willing to teach for a living). This really only leaves it to the GM how much he will allow in the backstory of a new character, and how much he demands to play it all out.

In my games of RQ3, I allowed "change of career" in the previous experience by the year for characters who at some point had left their parental farm (and most somewhat adult characters likely to go adventuring do). RQG previous experience doesn't quite work that way, but a character in their thirties may very well have had a complete change in previous careers, and I might allow limited application of a new career rather than building up on the previous one. But that's my GMing style of playing with somewhat veteran beginning characters rather than with young guns. Possibly something I inherited from Traveller.

[womble]

I don't see anywhere that the LM cult doesn't teach those Runes; it only says what every Sorcery-trained Initiate is taught as standard and basic. Given the knowledge-seeking nature of the Cult, I'm sure and certain that the 'appropriate book' might be found in an LM temple somewhere, and also that it is entirely possible to 'locate and persuade' a fellow Sage who can teach the 'missing' masteries. The findings of which might make a fair 'prologue' scene for a new character.