Robin Laws to pen two RuneQuest Books

[Dragonsnail]

19 hours ago, MOB said:

Robin's books are set some 7-10 years after the adventures described in RQ2's Pavis & Big Rubble and HQ. A lot has changed in that time.

Sounds good. I do own the other books and as 7Tigers said above, the HQ Pavis book is great.

Maybe Pavis is for Runequest what Masks of Nyarlathotep is for Call of Chthulhu.

[Yelm's Light]

I'm with @Jon Hunter.  Adari seems a lot more Deadwood to me than Pavis does.

[Jon Hunter]

4 minutes ago, Yelm's Light said:

I'm with @Jon Hunter.  Adari seems a lot more Deadwood to me than Pavis does.

I'm not sure I said i was anti deadwood.....

[Yelm's Light]

4 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:

I'm not sure I said i was anti deadwood.....

Nor I.  Deadwood is my favorite Western series ever...I wish the suits hadn't killed it before its time.  I just don't think it applies so much to Pavis.

Edited August 18, 2018 by Yelm's Light

[The Hooded Claw]

17 minutes ago, Yelm's Light said:

Nor I.  Deadwood is my favorite Western series ever...I wish the suits hadn't killed it before its time.  I just don't think it applies so much to Pavis.

I think it's my favourite TV show full stop. And apparently there is a movie in the works to wrap things up.

Edited August 18, 2018 by Addison

[creativehum]

I love Deadwood too. A lot.

But having been roped into reading a lot of ancient history and myths from the bibliography in RuneQuest 2nd (I'm reading Geoffrey Bibby's Four Thousand Years Ago right now) and the Glorantha Recommended Readings page (also currently reading Herodotus' The Histories, with others from the list on my bedside table), I have to admit I'm getting a disconnect between any place in Glorantha and Deadwood. The reference to Deadwood and Westerns is honestly bumping me in unexpected ways. (Note that in the answer Jeff gave to my questions upthread, most of the themes he mentioned could be dropped into Glorantha without leaning on any tropes or sensibilities one leans on for a Western. The exception is "frontier" -- which I have a hard time translating in my imagination from what the word meant for the Western Territories to the places that ancient urban centers might consider alien or other or different but anything but a frontier as the word is used in Westerns as I see it.)

This isn't anything that can be argued, of course. I'm loving all the sensibilities and point-of-view of Ancient History I'm soaking up, and look forward to sharing it with players. But if others see Deadwood as an analogue to a spot in Glorantha, great. That's the nature of the beast. We're all going to bring what we want to bring to the place.

Edited August 18, 2018 by creativehum

[7Tigers]

23 minutes ago, creativehum said:

I'm reading Geoffrey Bibby's Four Thousand Years Ago

Curious people can look here:
https://archive.org/details/FourThousandYearsAgoPanoramaOfLifeInTheSecondMilleniumB.C.BibbyGeoffrey

[g33k]

2 hours ago, creativehum said:

I love Deadwood too. A lot.

But having been roped into reading a lot of ancient history and myths from the bibliography in RuneQuest 2nd (I'm reading Geoffrey Bibby's Four Thousand Years Ago right now) and the Glorantha Recommended Readings page (also currently reading Herodotus' The Histories, with others from the list on my bedside table), I have to admit I'm getting a disconnect between any place in Glorantha and Deadwood. The reference to Deadwood and Westerns is honestly bumping me in unexpected ways. (Note that in the answer Jeff gave to my questions upthread, most of the themes he mentioned could be dropped into Glorantha without leaning on any tropes or sensibilities one leans on for a Western. The exception is "frontier" -- which I have a hard time translating in my imagination from what the word meant for the Western Territories to the places that ancient urban centers might consider alien or other or different but anything but a frontier as the word is used in Westerns as I see it.)

Desperate outlaws?  Check.  Hostile wilderness in all directions?  Check.  Hostile TRIBES in all directions?  Check.  Military (from a distant "Civilized" power) that can keep the Tribes in-check, IF they're close enough to intervene on a raid?  Check. Goldrush-esque bonanza of wealth... If you get lucky?  Check. Naive greenhorn treasure-hunters?  Check.  Local "guides" of dubious honesty (and honor)?  Check.  Con-artist's selling treasure maps?  Check.

Finally, that rough-and-tumble "anything goes" (so long as the SheriffLunars don't see) attitude, crossed with the "meet all kinds" city where people from far and wide congregate because it's the only place they can get to...

 

[Jeff]

8 hours ago, g33k said:

Desperate outlaws?  Check.  Hostile wilderness in all directions?  Check.  Hostile TRIBES in all directions?  Check.  Military (from a distant "Civilized" power) that can keep the Tribes in-check, IF they're close enough to intervene on a raid?  Check. Goldrush-esque bonanza of wealth... If you get lucky?  Check. Naive greenhorn treasure-hunters?  Check.  Local "guides" of dubious honesty (and honor)?  Check.  Con-artist's selling treasure maps?  Check.

Finally, that rough-and-tumble "anything goes" (so long as the SheriffLunars don't see) attitude, crossed with the "meet all kinds" city where people from far and wide congregate because it's the only place they can get to...

 

Of course Pavis and the Big Rubble has an Old West connection.  But we think that the Military and Sheriff themes resonate better when it isn't the Lunar empire, but some quasi-legitimate adventurer backed up by mercenaries.  

Glorantha has a lot of American mythology wrapped up into it - particularly Western American mythology. If you ever drive across the Rockies through the Great Basin to the Pacific coast, it is hard to miss its influence.

[Yelm's Light]

9 hours ago, g33k said:

Goldrush-esque bonanza of wealth... If you get lucky?  Check.

You don't have to kill mythical or fantastic creatures in Deadwood, nor is that bonanza magical (which, btw, is usually guarded by those fantastic creatures).  Humans are the only potential enemy in Deadwood.  You don't have to worry about coming into contact with body- and mind-warping forces aka Chaos, nor is there anything resembling actively-involved gods.

There's no general 'colonial expansion' attitude like there was in the West; Glorantha is effectively post-apocalyptic (very far in the past, but apocalyptic nonetheless).  Pavis is no more Deadwood than Deadwood is ancient Babylon.

[goldenwheeldancer]

1 hour ago, Yelm's Light said:

You don't have to kill mythical or fantastic creatures in Deadwood, nor is that bonanza magical (which, btw, is usually guarded by those fantastic creatures).  Humans are the only potential enemy in Deadwood.  You don't have to worry about coming into contact with body- and mind-warping forces aka Chaos, nor is there anything resembling actively-involved gods.

There's no general 'colonial expansion' attitude like there was in the West; Glorantha is effectively post-apocalyptic (very far in the past, but apocalyptic nonetheless).  Pavis is no more Deadwood than Deadwood is ancient Babylon.

i think they are talking about deadwood in the sense of it being a conGREGation  of riffraff beyond the reach of law and order. everything iS in flux. no one is in conTrol. anything goes. a sAloon owner seems to call the shots. then another saloon owner rolls into town and the whole dynamic changes. iF pavis, Free Of it's "occupied city" naRrative, is like this then it Defo get's a thumbs up from me!

Edited August 19, 2018 by goldenwheeldancer

[simonh]

2 hours ago, Yelm's Light said:

Pavis is no more Deadwood than Deadwood is ancient Babylon.

This comment is especially hilarious considering Deadwood was originally going to be set in ancient Rome.

But of course Rome isn’t ancient Babylon either...

Edited August 19, 2018 by simonh

[Grievous]

Quote

Sometime around late 2001, early 2002, David Milch strode into HBO’s New York offices with a TV pitch that was as bold as it was simple. He expressed it in one sentence: "St. Paul gets collared." Put more fully, Milch’s idea was for a TV series that would examine how a society could function without law. He chose ancient Rome as it managed to function as an imperial capital without a standing police force. The Romans still managed to get things done; wouldn’t it be interesting to see how? Unfortunately for Milch’s elegant pitch, HBO had already ordered a series set among the Ceasars, they didn’t need two. No problem, said Milch, I’ll set it in the Old West instead.

It’s a neat little vignette but it speaks to a larger truth, that the central themes of Deadwood -community, economics, the absence of law, the growth of institutions - are more important than the muddy thoroughfares, gold claims and saloons of its setting. This is certainly the case, but in placing his drama in frontier America, Milch tapped into a setting that enabled him to examine these ideas in the context of a growing nation, giving them a richer importance.

One of TV’s smartest writers, Milch still managed to fit St. Paul into the show. In a funeral scene in the first season, the Reverend Smith delivers a reading from 1 Corinthians 12, "For the body is not one member, but many". It's a powerful motif, the uniting of a community who come to find that, even in the absence of traditionally binding institutions –the law, formal politics- they are all connected and mutually dependent on one another.

On the themes of Deadwood (Source: http://www.denofgeek.com/tv/deadwood/22970/celebrating-deadwood).

Also, from wikipedia:

Quote

Milch has pointed out repeatedly in interviews that the intent of the show was to study the way that civilization comes together from chaos by organizing itself around symbols (in Deadwood the main symbol is gold). Initially, he intended to study this within Roman civilization (the central symbol was to be the religious cross), but HBO's Rome series was already in production and Milch was asked by the network if he could stage the story in another place. Although the series touches on a variety of issues including race, prostitution, misogyny, violence, politics, and immigration, most of the major story lines are grounded in this issue of bringing order from chaos.

Though Rome doesn't really strike me as a wholly lawless city or state, I think there's some ideas to be inspired by for Glorantha in those.

On a side note, I wonder about that Barbarian Town sourcebook that's been mentioned..

Edited August 19, 2018 by Grievous

[7Tigers]

11 minutes ago, Grievous said:

On a side note, I wonder about that Barbarian Town sourcebook that's been mentioned..

Barbarian Town is controlled by the Pol-Joni: so horses & cattle for a different kind of Wild Wild West!

[jajagappa]

24 minutes ago, Grievous said:

Though Rome doesn't really strike me as a wholly lawless city or state, I think there's some ideas to be inspired by for Glorantha in those.

Thanks for noting the original Rome references.  I particularly liked this note: "would examine how a society could function without law. He chose ancient Rome as it managed to function as an imperial capital without a standing police force."  That's Nochet in a nutshell.

[simonh]

2 hours ago, Grievous said:

Though Rome doesn't really strike me as a wholly lawless city or state, I think there's some ideas to be inspired by for Glorantha in those.

I know what you mean, but arguably the Roman system of government at the municipal level had more in common with organised crime than we’d be comfortable with today. Yes they had laws, but even organised crime is, well, organised.

[jajagappa]

14 minutes ago, simonh said:

but arguably the Roman system of government at the municipal level had more in common with organised crime than we’d be comfortable with today.

Welcome to Nochet. 🙂

[Dragonsnail]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Welcome to Nochet. 🙂

I wish for RQG books about Notchet, Esrolia and Holy Country.

 

[g33k]

58 minutes ago, Dragonsnail said:

I wish for RQG books about Notchet, Esrolia and Holy Country.

 

Amen, brother!

errr... bro-mollusc...wyrm... thing.

[Jon Hunter]

7 hours ago, Yelm's Light said:

You don't have to kill mythical or fantastic creatures in Deadwood, nor is that bonanza magical (which, btw, is usually guarded by those fantastic creatures).  Humans are the only potential enemy in Deadwood.  You don't have to worry about coming into contact with body- and mind-warping forces aka Chaos, nor is there anything resembling actively-involved gods.

There's no general 'colonial expansion' attitude like there was in the West; Glorantha is effectively post-apocalyptic (very far in the past, but apocalyptic nonetheless).  Pavis is no more Deadwood than Deadwood is ancient Babylon.

I think to see Pavis as a direct analogy of deadwood is misreading Jeffs intent, hes stated it as an influence, i'm sure there will be many others.  

Actually he has said numerous times he doesn't want Glorantha top be seen as a pastiche or any one civilisation, or situation.

Edited August 19, 2018 by Jon Hunter

[g33k]

8 hours ago, Jeff said:

...  But we think that the Military and Sheriff themes resonate better when it isn't the Lunar empire, but some quasi-legitimate adventurer backed up by mercenaries ...  

Really?

The Lunar/Sable alliance vs other tribes doesn't strike you as a nearly-exact parallel with the USCavalry (with a few scouts & allied tribes) vs the rest of the Native American tribes?

I grant you that the "Sheriff" role can be any strongman imposing order, whether Lunars or mighty Adventurers, or Argrath, or what-have-you.  As noted above, it can even look a lot like "organized crime" or something else not-exactly-Sheriff-y... and still be able to call upon some of the same themes.

 

[Yelm's Light]

5 hours ago, simonh said:

This comment is especially hilarious considering Deadwood was originally going to be set in ancient Rome.

But of course Rome isn’t ancient Babylon either...

As if ancient Rome (or Babylon) was actually lawless.  Deadwood was.

Also, as appears to have been missed, I gave an example of a 'city' that I find much more like Deadwood, in Glorantha...Adari.

Edited August 19, 2018 by Yelm's Light

[Jeff]

1 minute ago, g33k said:

Really?

The Lunar/Sable alliance vs other tribes doesn't strike you as a nearly-exact parallel with the USCavalry (with a few scouts & allied tribes) vs the rest of the Native American tribes?

I grant you that the "Sheriff" role can be any strongman imposing order, whether Lunars or mighty Adventurers, or Argrath, or what-have-you.  As noted above, it can even look a lot like "organized crime" or something else not-exactly-Sheriff-y... and still be able to call upon some of the same themes.

 

Not really - to me the Lunar Empire is a short-term interlude. More like Santa Anna than the Union Cavalry.

[simonh]

18 minutes ago, Yelm's Light said:

As if ancient Rome (or Babylon) was actually lawless.  Deadwood was.

Yes it f course, we know that. The point is they were both lawless enough, compared to modern times, for the writer behind Deadwood to be able to explore the themes of social organisation and community in either. What we’re saying is that, while Deadwood and Pavis are not identical, the social conditions there are close enough to be able to explore those same themes.

If the writer behind Deadwood could achieve his storytellbeing aims in either Rome or Deadwood, it seems reasonable to suppose that we can explore similar themes in Pavis. Or maybe even Babylon.

18 minutes ago, Yelm's Light said:

Also, as appears to have been missed, I gave an example of a 'city' that I find much more like Deadwood, in Glorantha...Adari.

You’re probably right, but Adari has magic and nonhuman races and monsters too so doesn’t that disqualify it? The only thing that makes it more similar is it’s smaller.

But Rome was the most populous city on earth, and apparently it would have done just fine too, so scale isn’t everything.

The important thing is, what kind of stories can we tell there? Deadwood is a great source for that.

[g33k]

31 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Not really - to me the Lunar Empire is a short-term interlude. More like Santa Anna than the Union Cavalry.

...

ok, fair 'nuf.  🙂