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I think that Pavis is about the mythos of the Western rather than about the Western itself.

The post-Dragonrise period is similar to the southern USA after Mexico has retreated as the force providing law and order.

There isn't really a foreign cavalry anywhere in Prax except at Knight Fort, since the Pol Joni are immigrants gone native in Prax for certain amounts of native. They probably are comparable to the Scot and former African slave portions of the southwestern Appalachian tribes.

 

The original placement of Pavis is quite extraordinary, and its re-occupation by Dorasar is rather similar in nature, with parallels (a horse-riding tribe dominant in northern and western Prax and a powerful political entity beyond in Quivinela). However, to me this feels more like some place in Syria - possibly Palmyra - than a place in the Wild West. The presence of the Rubble with its ancient ruins and with survivors of their builders is like nothing the Wild West period has to offer. (Unless you take pre-Columbian events where climate wiped out impressive urban civilizations, but that would eliminate both riding and the European-descended settlers that make up the myth of the West.)

Henry Rider Haggard might be the other major inspiration to look at, possibly coupled with Arab colonization of Africa from the coasts. Not just Pavis, but also places in the Wastes beyond.

 

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"Chaosium has recruited renowned role playing author Robin Laws (Feng Shui, Hillfolk) to write an updated version of the RuneQuest supplement Pavis & Big Rubble. The first of two volumes, A Big Ru

Policing is usually the rise of a state guard rather than a house guard to keep order. When there is no state, there is no guard. This is why clan is so important, and why being Outcast - or cutting y

Yes.

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On 8/19/2018 at 4:53 AM, jajagappa said:

Thanks for noting the original Rome references.  I particularly liked this note: "would examine how a society could function without law. He chose ancient Rome as it managed to function as an imperial capital without a standing police force."  That's Nochet in a nutshell.

Police forces are a modern invention. The British Bobbies of the 1820s or thereabouts were the first. The Bobby thing with nightsticks was the original American model too. Except in the "Wild West," for much of the 19th century, the cops in cities were sometimes the only people who "didn't" have guns.

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8 minutes ago, Glorion said:

Police forces are a modern invention. The British Bobbies of the 1820s or thereabouts were the first. The Bobby thing with nightsticks was the original American model too. Except in the "Wild West," for much of the 19th century, the cops in cities were sometimes the only people who "didn't" have guns.

Proper investigative police yes, various city watchmen no. "Riot police" armed with clubs of some kind seems to be a historical universal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigiles

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police#Ancient_policing

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1 minute ago, Akhôrahil said:

Proper investigative police yes, various city watchmen no. "Riot police" armed with clubs of some kind seems to be a historical universal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigiles

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police#Ancient_policing

Well, there always had to be somebody or other to maintain law and order somehow, but except in France, you had nothing resembling a modern police force till the 1830s, with professional training, payscales, uniforms and all that. Describing any of the order keepers before then in many different societies as "police" is misleading. The Romans used their legions for that, in medieval times the knights on horseback did it themselves in the countryside. Urban order in Europe and the American colonies was traditionally maintained by unpaid volunteer or drafted watch patrols drawn from the citizenry. Actually, investigators is what you did have, that was the job of the sheriff, to investigate, and to deputize citizens to make actual arrests. The first actual American police force, in New York City, was formed as that wasn't enough, with gangs running rampant. So the biggest, toughest gang was given uniforms and badges, and thus the NYPD was born. Some think it hasn't changed that much from its origins, certainly Serpico thought so.

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29 minutes ago, Glorion said:

Well, there always had to be somebody or other to maintain law and order somehow, but except in France, you had nothing resembling a modern police force till the 1830s, with professional training, payscales, uniforms and all that. Describing any of the order keepers before then in many different societies as "police" is misleading. The Romans used their legions for that, in medieval times the knights on horseback did it themselves in the countryside. Urban order in Europe and the American colonies was traditionally maintained by unpaid volunteer or drafted watch patrols drawn from the citizenry. Actually, investigators is what you did have, that was the job of the sheriff, to investigate, and to deputize citizens to make actual arrests. The first actual American police force, in New York City, was formed as that wasn't enough, with gangs running rampant. So the biggest, toughest gang was given uniforms and badges, and thus the NYPD was born. Some think it hasn't changed that much from its origins, certainly Serpico thought so.

Don't forget about the Edo police, though. It was impressively sophisticated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edo_period_police

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1 hour ago, Glorion said:

how a society could function without law

I have to say I find it peculiar to equate "a society without a modern police force" with "a society without law". There were plenty of laws in ancient Rome. But maybe it was just lazy typing.

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30 minutes ago, Puckohue said:

I have to say I find it peculiar to equate "a society without a modern police force" with "a society without law". There were plenty of laws in ancient Rome. But maybe it was just lazy typing.

One of the things that makes Heortling society interesting is that it does have an answer to how a society works without a police force. Wergild and other fines, outlawry, vengeance, blood feud, and even just regular social pressure keeps things functional, although the blood feuds and kinstrife might well be considered the failure modes of the solution.

I like to shock newcomers by telling them that murder isn't illegal, and then unpack the statement.

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6 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

One of the things that makes Heortling society interesting is that it does have an answer to how a society works without a police force. Wergild and other fines, outlawry, vengeance, blood feud, and even just regular social pressure keeps things functional, although the blood feuds and kinstrife might well be considered the failure modes of the solution.

I like to shock newcomers by telling them that murder isn't illegal, and then unpack the statement.

Policing is usually the rise of a state guard rather than a house guard to keep order. When there is no state, there is no guard. This is why clan is so important, and why being Outcast - or cutting your kin-ties to become a Death Worshipper - is so brutally dangerous. You're open season.

The modern police forces in the US arose as a combination of slave patrols and the hired enforcers of the wealthy to break the workers' unified fronts. This isn't a political statement: it's just literally history.

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11 hours ago, Puckohue said:

I have to say I find it peculiar to equate "a society without a modern police force" with "a society without law". There were plenty of laws in ancient Rome. But maybe it was just lazy typing.

That puzzled me, as I didn't say that. That was Jajagappa I guess? The Romans most certainly had law and all the paraphernalia of a modern state other than anything much resembling a modern police force. Indeed in Europe law is largely based on Roman law, whereas Americans live under a modernized version of English common law, a bit different. Actually there have been plenty of societies that functioned very nicely on the basis of custom not law, Native American societies for example. The classic example being the Iroquois, who not only had no police, no laws, no jails, no courts, no judges or juries, and no private property beyond the clothes on their back and suchlike, living communally in the longhouses, but nonetheless had an extremely successful empire, often telling the French and English colonists what to do instead of the other way around, and dominating and exploiting other tribes. Evildoers were judged and punished in community meetings, the highest punishment being exile, seen by your average Iroquois brave as being a punishment worse than death.

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10 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

One of the things that makes Heortling society interesting is that it does have an answer to how a society works without a police force. Wergild and other fines, outlawry, vengeance, blood feud, and even just regular social pressure keeps things functional, although the blood feuds and kinstrife might well be considered the failure modes of the solution.

I like to shock newcomers by telling them that murder isn't illegal, and then unpack the statement.

Which is pretty much how feudal society in Europe worked too. Wergild is a word in the English language, not a foreign import.

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16 hours ago, Glorion said:

That puzzled me, as I didn't say that. That was Jajagappa I guess?

No, not me. 

There's definitely no "police" force anywhere that I'm aware of in Glorantha.  Doesn't mean these societies don't have laws (i.e. customs) and don't maintain order (i.e. enforced by clans, houses, etc.).

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2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

No, not me. 

There's definitely no "police" force anywhere that I'm aware of in Glorantha.  Doesn't mean these societies don't have laws (i.e. customs) and don't maintain order (i.e. enforced by clans, houses, etc.).

i think there's policing in Dara Happa, and now Lunar, cities. It's city watch stuff, but they have prisons and judges.

The real divide between clan and urban is the need for some kind of protection. Now these are royal commissions, temple guards, and the like, but the city and the gods have replaced the clan.

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19 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

but they have prisons

I strongly doubt prisons.  I can see slave compounds, mines (e.g. the Salt Mines in the Big Rubble), gladiator pits, etc.  But not prisons as we know them.

One difference between DP cities and DH cities may be that the former have Mayors (sort of a mediator among guilds and city-based clans) whereas the latter have a priest-judge of Yelm.  Judgment is likely quick for commoners - exile, slavery, mutilation, or execution.

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On 7/8/2020 at 10:15 AM, Qizilbashwoman said:

Policing is usually the rise of a state guard rather than a house guard to keep order. When there is no state, there is no guard. This is why clan is so important, and why being Outcast - or cutting your kin-ties to become a Death Worshipper - is so brutally dangerous. You're open season.

The modern police forces in the US arose as a combination of slave patrols and the hired enforcers of the wealthy to break the workers' unified fronts. This isn't a political statement: it's just literally history.

Yup.  There's a good reference that came out recently called A History of Violence about how the police in the U.S. were created to beat down the working class from protesting and uniting.   A GM might want to consider that the same tactics might be employed upon uprisings in the Lunar Empire as well.  All part of the Evil Emperor stuff.

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On 8/16/2018 at 8:30 AM, MOB said:

"Chaosium has recruited renowned role playing author Robin Laws (Feng Shui, Hillfolk) to write an updated version of the RuneQuest supplement Pavis & Big Rubble. The first of two volumes, A Big Rubble, will release late in 2019, with Pavis planned for 2020."

https://icv2.com/articles/news/view/41146/robin-laws-pen-two-runequest-books

NB Robin's books are set some 7-10 years after the adventures described in RQ2's Pavis & Big Rubble, that culminate with The Cradle (1621). A lot has changed in that time.

 

Well it seems there was no such release in late 2019.  Is this still going to happen? 

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On 7/18/2020 at 9:18 PM, Squaredeal Sten said:

Well it seems there was no such release in late 2019.  Is this still going to happen? 

Yeah... but... the further-ahead those estimated publication dates get, the less accurate they are (generally speaking).  With the best will in the world to meet those previously-announced dates, it's still true that "stuff happens."

MOB posted that original estimate about 1.5 years in advance of the expected date.  That's a ... <tries to calculate> ... <fails> ... a helluva long time in Chaosium Years.

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