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Two other games that were clearly influenced by RuneQuest are Légendes and Premières Légendes. Those are d20 roll-under and skill based games, and the latter is a simplified version of the former.

However, they also take many bits from other US games, especially FGU ones, and might not be close enough to BRP to be in this list. Among other things, they use Margin of success a lot.

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In my thinking of whether to include some suggestions or not, a set of basic criteria for what constitutes a "good degree of compatibility between D100 systems" is in order:

  • List of skills
  • Percentile skills you have to roll under to succeed. You usually roll with a D100, but D20 is OK because you get skill in % if you multiply those skills by 5 (as in Pendragon).
  • Attributes like Strength, Intelligence, etc. (the list may vary a lot from one game to another)
  • Hit points

Do you agree?

:)

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Hmm, I think games that rolls a d20 or a d100 and then add the skill level, and requires a 20+ or 100+ result to succeed, still qualifies as d100 compatible since they just changed the math. That being said I don't consider the Rolemaster system to be a BRP/d100 compatible system, but I (IMHO) do think that Kult is a BRP compatible system as is "Western". But the OP is the one who lay down the rules.... 

 

 

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4 hours ago, peterb said:

Hmm, I think games that rolls a d20 or a d100 and then add the skill level, and requires a 20+ or 100+ result to succeed, still qualifies as d100 compatible since they just changed the math. That being said I don't consider the Rolemaster system to be a BRP/d100 compatible system, but I (IMHO) do think that Kult is a BRP compatible system as is "Western". But the OP is the one who lay down the rules.... 

 

 

Could you elaborate on why would you include Kult but not Rolemaster? I've played the latter, but not the former.

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6 hours ago, Runeblogger said:

In my thinking of whether to include some suggestions or not, a set of basic criteria for what constitutes a "good degree of compatibility between D100 systems" is in order:

  • List of skills
  • Percentile skills you have to roll under to succeed. You usually roll with a D100, but D20 is OK because you get skill in % if you multiply those skills by 5 (as in Pendragon).
  • Attributes like Strength, Intelligence, etc. (the list may vary a lot from one game to another)
  • Hit points

Do you agree?

:)

Possibly, but possibly not.

 

The reason for my dithering is that not all D100 systems are like all over D100 systems.

All have lists of skills, all have to roll beneath the skill % on d100 to succeed, all have characteristics of various kinds.

Not all have Hit Points as a general thing. Some have locational hit points, some don't. Some have general hit points, some don't. Some don't even have Hit Point, for example Revolution has Life Points.

 

It may be that we need basic categories:

Classic RQ:

  • Characteristics (3D6/2D6+6)
  • Roll under Skill on 1d100
  • Locational Hit Points on D20
  • General Hit Points
  • Resistance Table
  • Characteristic Rolls
  • Traditional Combat

Alternate RQ:

  • Characteristics (3D6/2D6+6)
  • Roll under Skill on 1d100
  • Locational Hit Points on D20
  • Reduced Skill Set
  • Rolls against Skills not Characteristics
  • Many Combat Effects/Options

Call of Cthulhu:

  • Characteristics (3D6)
  • Roll under Skill on 1d100
  • General Hit Points
  • Resistance Table
  • Characteristic Rolls
  • Traditional Combat

Stormbringer/Elric:

  • Characteristics (3D6/2D6+6) but also on D8s
  • Roll under Skill on 1d100
  • General Hit Points
  • Resistance Table
  • Characteristic Rolls
  • Traditional Combat
  • Variable Armour

 

So, for example, RQ2, RQ3 and RQG come squarely under Classic RQ, as would be expected. RQMI, RQMII, RQ6 and Mythras come under Alternate RQ, as expected. Revolution is sort-of under that, but moves away quite a bit. Elric, Hawkmoon, Stormbringer and Magic World come under StormBringer/Elric. CoV comes under Call of Cthulhu, except for the latest edition which does funny things with Characterictics, but might still come under that in a pinch. OpenQuest is sort of between Classic and Alternate RQ, GORE is between Alternate RQ and Call of Cthulhu. Renaissance is Alternate RQ. BRP sits between Classic RQ/Call of Cthulhu/Elric/Stormbringer.

So, what about other systems? Do they broadly fit into these categories?If not, do they need a new category or don't they fit at all?

 

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A fringe D100 setting would be the Pax Draconis RPG.  It gets more crunchy every time I go back and look through the rulebook, but the included sci-fi setting was interesting for not having humans at the top. 

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On 8/25/2018 at 9:15 PM, Runeblogger said:

In my thinking of whether to include some suggestions or not, a set of basic criteria for what constitutes a "good degree of compatibility between D100 systems" is in order:

  • List of skills
  • Percentile skills you have to roll under to succeed. You usually roll with a D100, but D20 is OK because you get skill in % if you multiply those skills by 5 (as in Pendragon).
  • Attributes like Strength, Intelligence, etc. (the list may vary a lot from one game to another)
  • Hit points

Do you agree?

:)

 

In that case you could include Fire and Sword by Ray Turney, one of the original Chaosium designers of RuneQuest. It's 'published' on this BRP site, in the Downloads section, but it is a complete fantasy game with roll-under d20 skills and many other interesting innovations such as hitpointless combat and social mechanics. 

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On 25 de agosto de 2018 at 8:12 PM, soltakss said:

Possibly, but possibly not.

 

The reason for my dithering is that not all D100 systems are like all over D100 systems.

All have lists of skills, all have to roll beneath the skill % on d100 to succeed, all have characteristics of various kinds.

Not all have Hit Points as a general thing. Some have locational hit points, some don't. Some have general hit points, some don't. Some don't even have Hit Point, for example Revolution has Life Points.

 

It may be that we need basic categories:

Classic RQ:

  • Characteristics (3D6/2D6+6)
  • Roll under Skill on 1d100
  • Locational Hit Points on D20
  • General Hit Points
  • Resistance Table
  • Characteristic Rolls
  • Traditional Combat

Alternate RQ:

  • Characteristics (3D6/2D6+6)
  • Roll under Skill on 1d100
  • Locational Hit Points on D20
  • Reduced Skill Set
  • Rolls against Skills not Characteristics
  • Many Combat Effects/Options

Call of Cthulhu:

  • Characteristics (3D6)
  • Roll under Skill on 1d100
  • General Hit Points
  • Resistance Table
  • Characteristic Rolls
  • Traditional Combat

Stormbringer/Elric:

  • Characteristics (3D6/2D6+6) but also on D8s
  • Roll under Skill on 1d100
  • General Hit Points
  • Resistance Table
  • Characteristic Rolls
  • Traditional Combat
  • Variable Armour

 

So, for example, RQ2, RQ3 and RQG come squarely under Classic RQ, as would be expected. RQMI, RQMII, RQ6 and Mythras come under Alternate RQ, as expected. Revolution is sort-of under that, but moves away quite a bit. Elric, Hawkmoon, Stormbringer and Magic World come under StormBringer/Elric. CoV comes under Call of Cthulhu, except for the latest edition which does funny things with Characterictics, but might still come under that in a pinch. OpenQuest is sort of between Classic and Alternate RQ, GORE is between Alternate RQ and Call of Cthulhu. Renaissance is Alternate RQ. BRP sits between Classic RQ/Call of Cthulhu/Elric/Stormbringer.

So, what about other systems? Do they broadly fit into these categories?If not, do they need a new category or don't they fit at all?

 

Your idea of categorising different groups of D100 systems is cool. However I see the 4 categories you have me tioned as very easy to use with one another, meaning: for example, that I can play any RQ scenario with the Elric rules without any effort. If I know what kind of armour an NPC in a scenario is wearing, I can just roll the dice Elric assigns to that instead of substracting the specified armour points from the rolled damage. So I would consider all those games under the same category, really.

Now what Rulesets really deviate from those while still qualifying as Roll under D100 according to the criteria I suggested? 😉

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On 8/25/2018 at 1:15 PM, Runeblogger said:

In my thinking of whether to include some suggestions or not, a set of basic criteria for what constitutes a "good degree of compatibility between D100 systems" is in order:

  • List of skills
  • Percentile skills you have to roll under to succeed. You usually roll with a D100, but D20 is OK because you get skill in % if you multiply those skills by 5 (as in Pendragon).
  • Attributes like Strength, Intelligence, etc. (the list may vary a lot from one game to another)
  • Hit points

Do you agree?

:)

I'm not really keen on including in the same list games that are more loosely related to BRP than Pendragon and Mythras (even Reves de Dragon), but why not ?

I mentionned Légendes and Premières Légendes. Let's see how they fit.

Légendes

-Is Skill based. Classes exist, but they're only used as Social Class and restrict access to magic. Even though you can learn spells when not being a magic user, it literally takes months or years to learn 1 spell.
-Like in Bushido, each skill has a score on a 0-99 scale for experience, and another on a 0-20 scale for skill checks.
-Has Attributes like Strength, Intelligence, etc. on a 5-20 scale for humans.
-Has hit points, named "Fatigue". Major and Severe Wounds can occur if you lose too much fatigue with one blow.

Premières Légendes

-Same as Légendes.
-Only has 1 scale for skills, loosely 1-20 based, even though you could go beyond 20.
-Has 3 attributes (Physique, Mental and Charisma) on a 2-12 scale and 3 sub-attributes for each attribute, which can range from 1 to 14.
-Same as Légendes.

So, I think both fit the definition.

Légendes had 2 settings :

-Légendes Celtiques: Essentially based on irish legendary sources such as the legends of Cuchulain, Tuatha de Danann and Finn McCool, it was aimed at re-creating an iron age semi-historical game set anywhere in the celtic world.
-Légendes des Mille et Une Nuits : An Arabian Nights setting, aimed at gaming in medieval islamic world.

Premières Légendes had 3 settings:

-Légendes Celtiques: Same as for the original game, with some additions and the simpler Premières Légendes engine. Among other things, a class of Warrior-Mages was available that had access to extraordinary maneuvers and abilities, treated as spells.
-La Table Ronde: Despite the arthurian name, the game was really about the times and place when the arthurian legend was written, the European Middle ages.
-La Vallée des Rois: An antique Egyptian background.

Edited by Mugen

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On 8/25/2018 at 5:47 PM, Runeblogger said:

Could you elaborate on why would you include Kult but not Rolemaster? I've played the latter, but not the former.

I wouldn't include Rolemaster because the rolls are open-ended.  If you roll 96 (or above) you roll again and add the values, if that is 96 or above you keep going.  Similarly it is open-ended on the low end.  I think that is a significant difference.

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Dont know about Aftermath! but Bushido struck me as D&D-ish and Daredevils was simply incomprehensible.  Nothing like BRP at all ( but the modules are pulp adventure gold).  I ran them with Justice, Inc.

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15 hours ago, lawrence.whitaker said:

As mentioned on RPGnet, you should also include several of FGU's games:

Bushido

Aftermath

Daredevils

They all fit the d100 compatible criteria you've established.

So far I've included these 3 (although they stand there on the fringe) and Légendes (amazing that they did an Egyptian supplement!).

I'm curious to know if, as a publisher of a D100 game system, you agree with those minimum criteria or if you would add any. :huh:

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10 hours ago, seneschal said:

Dont know about Aftermath! but Bushido struck me as D&D-ish and Daredevils was simply incomprehensible.  Nothing like BRP at all ( but the modules are pulp adventure gold).  I ran them with Justice, Inc.

Bushido has levels and armour that reduces the chance to hit, but that's about as much as it has in common with D&D. 

Otherwise, all three games precisely fit the stipulated criteria. Both Daredevils and Aftermath are overly complex, but they still tick all the qualification boxes for d100 compatible games. 

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I'm curious to know if, as a publisher of a D100 game system, you agree with those minimum criteria or if you would add any.

I think that the minimum criteria, and allowing the resolution dice to include d20 and d10, leaves the exercise open to a lot of edge cases - like the FGU games and Rolemaster. 

You could perhaps include magic fuelled by Power or Magic Points (if not already included upthread), but that won't disqualify games like Bushido. 

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7 hours ago, Runeblogger said:

So far I've included these 3 (although they stand there on the fringe) and Légendes (amazing that they did an Egyptian supplement!).

Originally, there was plans for much more settings. A Norse supplement was advertised for the original Légendes game, but it was never published, and never mentioned for Premières Légendes.

I think Jeux Descartes had high expectations for La Vallée des Rois, but it was not a commercial success. Premières Légendes Celtiques was the first french game translated in English under the name Celtic Legends, but without much success.

Amateur settings exist for Tahitian legends, and Greek legends (Légendes des Cités). I never read those.

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2 hours ago, lawrence.whitaker said:

You could perhaps include magic fuelled by Power or Magic Points (if not already included upthread), but that won't disqualify games like Bushido. 

That would disqualify StormBringer first editions, and Revolution D100. :D

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3 minutes ago, Mugen said:

That would disqualify StormBringer first editions, and Revolution D100. :D

Exertion Points are explicitly described as being a synthesis of fatigue and magic points, and replaceable with MP if your really really wish. 

In any case, I do not know how useful this exercise in strict categorization is. You know, the second favourite thing that roleplayers love to do, after "killing things and taking their stuff", is making forum posts about "[someone else's favourite game] belonging to the blasphemous category of [forgie/ narrativist/ simulationist/ storygamey/ crunchy/ metagmey/ pickanyoneaslongasithasadetractor] games, which everyone knows are not real RPGs". I do not feel the need to provide further criteria for such kind of arguments. Does anyone? :)

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That would disqualify StormBringer first editions

Correct. It would.

And herein lies the difficulty with trying to create a taxonomy like this. All d100/BRP games have exceptions designed to emulate either the fictional work they represent, or their genre, or something else. You then end-up having to build a very complex set of rules and conditions to accommodate everything comfortably, and, in so doing, find that you're pulling in systems you'd have never considered to be d100 compatible or technically shouldn't be, but, because they fit the bulk of the criteria, somehow find their way in there. Pendragon's a case in point. It's a Chaosium game, and has most of the common d100 elements, but uses a d20 as its resolution mechanism. So, if we want to include it in the d100 grouping, a new exception is created to cover d20 resolution. This pulls in the FGU games, HeroQuest, and probably a whole bunch of other games one might not have considered.

And then you get Rolemaster, which has characteristics, skills, crits, fumbles, and uses a d100, but works on a roll over mechanic. Some would argue that the roll over mechanic disqualfies it, but others rightly point out that it's just a reversal of the maths involved; so arguably, it should be in there. And, if you then apply the logic used to include Pendragon, then you could argue that taking a d100 roll-over mechanism and dividing by five gives you a d20 roll-over mechanism. Which just happens to apply to D&D (3rd edition and above), which also has skills, Hit Points, Crits... :)

Essentially, all roleplaying games are related. Mechanics developed for one system are copied, or used as inspiration, or readily lifted, and find their way into games that one might consider to be completely unrelated to the original hypothesis, but, because you've created a whole bunch of exceptions, actually end up qualifying.

I'm actually finding it quite interesting as an exercise to see just how inter-related many different systems, by many different creators, really are. But it's a very difficult exercise to keep 'pure'.

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I dont think we’ve been dissing other people’s favorite games.  But i do think the criteria are over broad, putting games on the list whose settings you couldnt use without a lot of work.  Sure, i could run my beloved Daredevils modules or DangerQuest’s Newmerica setting with BRP but I’d be writing up NPCs from scratch because the rules themselves have few or no common points, even if they do all use percentile dice.

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1 hour ago, seneschal said:

... But i do think the criteria are over broad, putting games on the list whose settings you couldnt use without a lot of work...

Agreed.

1 hour ago, seneschal said:

...  Sure, i could run my beloved Daredevils modules or DangerQuest’s Newmerica setting with BRP but I’d be writing up NPCs from scratch because the rules themselves have few or no common points, even if they do all use percentile dice.

This is the key element I'd want for a "useful" list:  usefulness.

If I am holding a supplement in my hands, and am not well-acquainted with the system (core rules) it's designed for, can I run it anyway?  Or does the supplement rely upon material that I need to understand from its core rulebook, before I can run -- FrEx -- that Bushido adventure in a MagicWorld or RQG campaign?

It's looking a bit like the OP is "trying too hard," looking to demonstrate how big/complete/etc the BRP/d100 genre-coverage is; that agenda has gotten in the way of the list being useful.

YlistMV.

 

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It might be useful to add some disqualifying criteria -- classes, levels, HP's that spiral ever-upward, etc.

These are some of the things that people have cited for decades that they liked better about RQ & the BRP family, vs D&D.

 

Of course, many have observed that "Cults" (which often give special magic, special skills, etc) are uncomfortably "class-like" for such a distinction... arguably eliminating RuneQuest 1 / 2 / 3 from being part of this exercise (and thus eliminating Glorantha as one of the settings to allow).  🤡

 

How about this:  Class/Cult/etc, or Level/Rank/Etc cannot be a "majority" influence upon the system.  So if you "need" (FrEx) to stay with Bbn/Ftr/Pal/Rng in D&D3.x to keep the "+1 BAB per level," or if you "need" to stay with Brd/Src/War/Wiz to cast "Arcane" magic... then Class-choice & Level becomes a "majority" influence.

In RQ, for example, you can get individual SPELLS unique to a cult (or a few cults), but not whole categories of magic; Humakt & ZZ & B.Gor may be the stereotypical fighters, but an Ernaldan could have just as high a %Axe ...

So D&D3 is disqualified because of Class/Level reliance, but RQ is NOT disqualified due to Cults.

But admittedly, this is straying into shades-of-gray territory, not clear-dividing-lines.

edit:  And how does Rodney Leary's "Classic Fantasy" (for BRP/Mythras) fit into any Class/Level-disqualifying metrics? 

 

Edited by g33k
CF

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2 hours ago, lawrence.whitaker said:

... but works on a roll over mechanic. Some would argue that the roll over mechanic disqualfies it, but others rightly point out that it's just a reversal of the maths involved; so arguably, it should be in there..

Under/Over aren't necessarily simple "math is reversed " (and therefore mathematically "equvalent" as to odds).  There are a bunch of other constraints that COULD play in, depending on the rules...

How do you deal with over-100 skills in a roll-under system; what are the mechanics?  What is the mechanic in a Roll-Over system, and is it REALLY mathematically equivalent?  I mean, sure you could analyze the maths and make sure you built an equivalent mechanic -- but we're talking about EXISTING systems' equivalence & interoperability.

High-level D&D3.x characters regularly bring a bonus to the roll that swamps the d20... +30, +40.  Granted, they are trying to hit AC/DC at an appropriate level; but if the "floor" of the DC's are simply raised so that the 20th-level PC hits the Demonic Legionaire just as often as the same PC at 1st level hit the Goblin Trooper, then the rolls are the same; but the 20th level PC can reliably wade through HORDES of Goblin Troopers, whereas a horde of Trollkin is still a credible threat to the Rune Lord (and in Mythras, of course, the aggregate of AP's on each side can prove decisive (as can Effects (which sparks ANOTHER train of thought that I'll take over to the TDM forums)).

 

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