Charisma

[D]

2 hours ago, Yelm's Light said:

Excellent job of painting those.

I can assure you that when mine arrive, they won't look as good as that, as I've never painted any before. 

[womble]

On 8/25/2018 at 1:24 PM, jajagappa said:

So you've just spent 6 Rune Points to double your CHA for a year.  Now you are down 6 rune points until they can be replenished - probably a seasonal holy day as that will give you 2d6 points back (typically 7) with a successful Worship.

It's only really 2 points, cos if you're munching on the mechanics like this, you'd have an Extension 5 Matrix. So just the 1 point for Charisma; the Matrix will get recharged at the next Worship. If you're a Priest of a Big God you've probably got weekly chances to regain Rune Points.

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You can no longer hold all the extra Spirit Magic you've acquired.  I think it follows along the lines of p.254 "An adventurer can voluntarily give up knowing a spirit magic spell to make room for different new spells."  If you've lost the CHA to hold the Spirit Magic, then you must give up knowing X number of spirit magic spells.

Yes, that's what I thought was probably the case.

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I don't believe you can overwrite the spell.  You could dismiss it, then cast again, but that will initiate some hiatus.

Totally agree that dismissing it would make a gap. I have wooly recollections that incompatible spells can't be used cheaply as a Dismiss Magic on their incompatible partner (using a Protection 1 to drop a Countermagic 4, for example) and I wonder whether giving the replacement spell a MP boost to make it 'stronger' could be a way round it. Also, while I'm entirely clear that casting two Shield 1 spells on the same target doesn't give a Shield 2, I'm not sure what it does get. My first instinct would be that the second-cast would overwrite the first, staving off the endpoint of the spell. Or perhaps they'd both exist together, so that both would have to be dismissed to get rid of the armour/magical protection. But would casting Shield 2 on someone with Shield 1 overwrite the spell? Or casting Shield 1 with a 6MP boost on a target that already has a Shield 2?

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Your rune points are limited by CHA.  If you increase naturally, that goes up, so should with an Extended Charisma spell too.  

If your CHA goes down then I'd say the rune points aren't lost until cast, but cannot be regained/restored.  If you subsequently go up again, then you must spend POW to get additional rune points.  You can get around this by having rune points with another cult (which are managed separately).

 

So, you'd say (for a concrete and non-munchkinny example) that if a Priest with 15CHA and 15RP with one Cult who somehow lost a point of CHA (aging?) and then regained it (training?) before having cast any more Rune Magic would have 14RP and 1 RP that... No, I'm confused. I'm pretty sure the RP-in-excess-of-CHA are one of:

1. Gone for good
2. Inaccessible until CHA is restored, then available as normal
3. Inaccessible until CHA is restored, then available as one-use
4. Available as one-use until CHA is restored, then fully reusable thereafter
5. Available as one-use, and still available, but still only one-use, after CHA is restored

I'm not a fan of 1) because your God is supposed to be keen for you to get on in the world and just saying "Oh, you weren't using it so I took it away" seems contrary to the spirit of the deal for most Cults.

I'd tend to slide towards 4), or 2).

Or are you saying that RP accumulated above and beyond 'natural' CHA are always considered 'one-use'? Given that a POW sacrificed to the deity is 1POW whether it's a magically-enhanced strength of personality allowing the Initiate to have more than usual or not, that seems to me to be contrary to the usual tone of the Initiate-God relationship.

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Similar considerations on binding spirits (limited by CHA/3).  As it notes on p.250 "After losing points of CHA, an adventurer must be very careful when dealing with their spirits. Trying to keep more spirits than the adventurer’s CHA characteristic allows gets the adventurer in trouble the first time they try to use one for anything. The spirit rebels unless the adventurer manages to roll CHA×5 or less on a D100."

 

That's an excellent parallel. If a Charisma abuser spent their year building up their menagerie of bound spirits, the hiatus between the end of the first year and the recast for the second year would have, typically, zero repercussions, since even if someone ambushes you at the moment your first spell runs out, it's only a round to raise it up again, so you probably never need to call on your 'excess' spirits on your 'bad hair day'.

On 8/25/2018 at 1:19 PM, PhilHibbs said:

I'd file that under "egregious munchkinnery". It isn't permanent, and those are workarounds to make its benefits effectively permanent.

Agreed, it's stretching the rules and 'synergies'... I'd argue that the problem lies with Extension being so easy to get to year-duration. All sorts of Temporal Rune Magic becomes 'effectively' permanent when 5 RP Extension matrices are so accessible.

[womble]

Sorry, double post.

Edited August 27, 2018 by womble
Multipost. Sorry.

[womble]

Sorry, double post.

Edited August 27, 2018 by womble
Multipost. Sorry.

[Joerg]

14 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I just thought of a great use for this. I want to really make my mark on the world, so I decide to create the biggest spell matrix ever. I get my CHA up to 21, and build up 21 Rune Points. But 21 is pathetic! So I cast Charisma on myself (or I get someone else to) extended for a year. Over the course of that year I get another 21 Rune Points. I get the gang together, and we all contribute POW to making a 42 point matrix. You can swallow an average rhino with that thing!

And of course it's Swallow, what were you expecting? You don't waste an amazing idea like this on something sensible! 😄

You are aware of the POW cost of 21 additional rune points, in addition to the point of POW you need to start the Enchantment? You might have to settle for a 40 point Swallow matrix...

The object for that matrix should obviously be a golden or maybe leaden tooth or similar artificial dentition. If Jaldon had one, why not your Trickster?

And in the best tradition by Tricksters all over the world, why don't you bet another trickster he couldn't make one by this method, and let him do all the hard work?

Edited August 27, 2018 by Joerg

[PhilHibbs]

6 minutes ago, womble said:

Also, while I'm entirely clear that casting two Shield 1 spells on the same target doesn't give a Shield 2, I'm not sure what it does get. My first instinct would be that the second-cast would overwrite the first, staving off the endpoint of the spell. Or perhaps they'd both exist together, so that both would have to be dismissed to get rid of the armour/magical protection. But would casting Shield 2 on someone with Shield 1 overwrite the spell? Or casting Shield 1 with a 6MP boost on a target that already has a Shield 2?

 

Well, in the first instance you are casting a 1 point rune spell on someone who is protected by Countermagic 2. Countermagic says that in that case, both spells go down. But Shield Countermagic does not go down like the spirit spell, so the first spell simply cancels the second. Simple. Shield 2 beats Countermagic 2, so it replaces the Shield 1.

The hole in this logic is that Shield stacks with Countermagic, so clearly Countermagic 2 is NOT removed by Shield 1. So maybe Shield 1 should ignore and replace the existing Countermagic effect of the first Shield 1.

[PhilHibbs]

32 minutes ago, Joerg said:

You are aware of the POW cost of 21 additional rune points, in addition to the point of POW you need to start the Enchantment? You might have to settle for a 40 point Swallow matrix...

You start on 21 POW, put 11 into RP, get a POW gain roll, put another 10 in. 

32 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The object for that matrix should obviously be a golden or maybe leaden tooth or similar artificial dentition. If Jaldon had one, why not your Trickster?

Wooden dentures, I'm thinking.

32 minutes ago, Joerg said:

And in the best tradition by Tricksters all over the world, why don't you bet another trickster he couldn't make one by this method, and let him do all the hard work?

So... that guy I met in Swenstown... who bet me I couldn't... Grrr, I've been had!

[Crel]

39 minutes ago, womble said:

Or are you saying that RP accumulated above and beyond 'natural' CHA are always considered 'one-use'?

This makes me think that maybe a solution is to just say "Hey, y'all can't have more points of spirit magic or more RP than species maximum, no matter how high you munchkin your CHA" (without Heroquest shenanigans?). You'll still have some of these issues about "what quality are my RP?" when CHA changes, but having a flat cap in place might preemptively reduce the amount of rule abuse.

(Of course, all that tasty, tasty bonus CHA would still apply toward your skills...)

[womble]

36 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

 

Well, in the first instance you are casting a 1 point rune spell on someone who is protected by Countermagic 2. Countermagic says that in that case, both spells go down. But Shield Countermagic does not go down like the spirit spell, so the first spell simply cancels the second. Simple. Shield 2 beats Countermagic 2, so it replaces the Shield 1.

The hole in this logic is that Shield stacks with Countermagic, so clearly Countermagic 2 is NOT removed by Shield 1. So maybe Shield 1 should ignore and replace the existing Countermagic effect of the first Shield 1.

"Truly, you have a dizzying intellect."

"Wait til I get going!"

So: overwriting Temporal spells in general... ?

 

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, womble said:

So: overwriting Temporal spells in general... ?

Ah yes. In general, I think two similar spells can just sit there side by side with the greater effect masking the lesser. But the rules aren't clear, it's a GM call unless Jeff, Jason, Steve, or anyone else with sufficient RQ gravitas feel motivated to wade in with a Runefix. So maybe you could get away with perpetually renewing the Charisma before the old one ran out, but the Extension runefix means you need two pools of Rune Points.

[jajagappa]

12 hours ago, womble said:

So, you'd say (for a concrete and non-munchkinny example) that if a Priest with 15CHA and 15RP with one Cult who somehow lost a point of CHA (aging?) and then regained it (training?) before having cast any more Rune Magic would have 14RP and 1 RP that... No, I'm confused.

No, I was saying don't put all your RP in one cult basket.  If you've got 15 CHA, put 10 RP in your Orlanth basket and then join associated cult Issaries (or whoever) and put 5 RP in that basket.  Both are then well insulated against CHA loss (and you can work common rune spells from either).  

12 hours ago, womble said:

I'm pretty sure the RP-in-excess-of-CHA are one of:

1. Gone for good
2. Inaccessible until CHA is restored, then available as normal
3. Inaccessible until CHA is restored, then available as one-use
4. Available as one-use until CHA is restored, then fully reusable thereafter
5. Available as one-use, and still available, but still only one-use, after CHA is restored

I'm not a fan of 1) because your God is supposed to be keen for you to get on in the world and just saying "Oh, you weren't using it so I took it away" seems contrary to the spirit of the deal for most Cults.

I'd tend to slide towards 4), or 2).

My vote is for a variant of #4.  If you need to use, you do as one-use.  But it's gone at that point if you do.  If you don't use and CHA returns then fully reusable once more.

Basically your god is saying "I expect you to be my leader.  You failed to maintain that, and yet you drew upon my powers anyway.  Now you have to sacrifice to me again to prove your dedication."

[womble]

Assuming the Extension hotfix (RP used in Extension and the Extended spell do not return until the Extended spell ends), and you cast an Extended (for whatever period, depending on how often you think you'll get RP back) spell that you renew (with a different parcel of Rune Points) just before the first one ends), you're effectively commiting Rune Points (i.e. sacrificed POW) to a permanent thing, in a similar way to your standard Enchantment. It's more vulnerable than an Enchantment, and effectively requires you have double the necessary RP pool, to maintain it consistently (though you could muck around with a shorter Extension if you know you're going to get enough RP back soon (or refill your matrix) to tide you over until you cast the long one). If you use Matrices to do the trick, you're effectively creating an Enchantment by proxy.

I'm not sure this is necessarily a Bad Thing. The hotfix for Extension seems to tone it down nicely to reflect the resources (sacrificed POW) committed.

I don't think Extension needs to be in a linked enchantment; by its nature, it's cast alongside the target spell anyway. You could have (if you had a ready supply of saccable POW) several Extension 5 matrices and use them to 'quasi-permanentise' a variety of Temporal Rune Spells, whether they were cast using native Rune Points or from Rune Spell Matrices, wherever sourced.

20 hours ago, jajagappa said:

My vote is for a variant of #4.  If you need to use, you do as one-use.  But it's gone at that point if you do.  If you don't use and CHA returns then fully reusable once more.

In my lexicon, that's just a different form of words, rather than a variant. 

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Basically your god is saying "I expect you to be my leader.  You failed to maintain that, and yet you drew upon my powers anyway.  Now you have to sacrifice to me again to prove your dedication."

 

The risk of losing CHA is present for all Initiates, not just the leader/Rune Lord types. With 2 POW gain rolls per year, your average (10-11) POW Orlanthi farmer could have a full CHA of RP by age 30, easy. I don't see the CHA limit as God-imposed, but a 'personal' limit based on "strength of personality".

Edited August 28, 2018 by womble

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, womble said:

In my lexicon, that's just a different form of words, rather than a variant. 

When I read through your text initially, I was not picking up the fact that if you've used it, you've lost it.  Reading back through, I think you're correct, and that we're on the same page.

3 hours ago, womble said:

I don't see the CHA limit as God-imposed, but a 'personal' limit based on "strength of personality".

True.  I was thinking more in the munchkin gaming line.

[Zozotroll]

Rather than CHA I have been thinking of a Troll cruising around with Crush on his weapon full time.  Or true sword.    Or did I miss something?  I dont like PDF, I do better with dead trees.

[womble]

6 hours ago, Zozotroll said:

Rather than CHA I have been thinking of a Troll cruising around with Crush on his weapon full time.  Or true sword.    Or did I miss something?  I dont like PDF, I do better with dead trees.

Aye. It works for all Temporal spells. But, as I noted above, with the Extension hotfix, it's not so unreasonable, as you're committing a lot of sacrificed POW to it, as if you'd used them in Enchantments, only the effects are dispellable. Sorcery is still, probably, superior for long term effects; that same POW into an Inscription would make a lot of +2d6 week-long Boon of Kargan Tor, given sufficient magic points.

The cheese with CHA is that your higher RP store lets you make bigger Rune Magic Matrices, requiring even more sacrificed POW, for arguably niche applications. But it shows what, say, a Great Temple of Ernalda in Nochet could put together without even HeroQuesting.