Why are INT and SIZ above normal?

[mhensley]

In my first reading of the rules, the first thing that struck me as being a bit odd was that the INT and SIZ stats are 2d6+6 instead of being done as 3d6 like everything else. Why is this? It seems weird that all pc's are meant to be smarter and bigger than average.

[Conrad]

In my first reading of the rules, the first thing that struck me as being a bit odd was that the INT and SIZ stats are 2d6+6 instead of being done as 3d6 like everything else. Why is this? It seems weird that all pc's are meant to be smarter and bigger than average.

Remember that the player characters are supposed to be adventurers, not just normal everyday people. What with magic, monsters, mutants and supervillains wanting a piece of our poor player characters they need slightly above average INT and SIZ to give them a bit of an edge.

[fmitchell]

From RQ3, I vaguely recall that it was to escape having a sapient creature have an INT less than 8, or an adult human have a SIZ less than 8. In RQ2, I think every stat was a straight 3D6.

I haven't opened those books in ages, though; I can double-check when I get home.

[cjbowser]

From RQ3, I vaguely recall that it was to escape having a sapient creature have an INT less than 8, or an adult human have a SIZ less than 8. In RQ2, I think every stat was a straight 3D6.

I haven't opened those books in ages, though; I can double-check when I get home.

In addition to what Frank said, I always thought it was because INT was used in determing skill points and SIZ is one half of the formula for derterming hit points.

Edited November 7, 2008 by cjbowser
clarity

[Trifletraxor]

In my first reading of the rules, the first thing that struck me as being a bit odd was that the INT and SIZ stats are 2d6+6 instead of being done as 3d6 like everything else. Why is this? It seems weird that all pc's are meant to be smarter and bigger than average.

PC's arent smarter and bigger than average, as normal humans also have these stats. It's done to avoid the extremes, where a human could end up smaller than a cat and stupider than a rat. :cool:

:beetle:

[Ombord]

Yes, all humans are "above average" for intelligence and size.

Remember those scales are meant to accommodate critters like babies and small children too - not merely animals. With the 2D6+6 rule, you're effectively raising the lower limit on how low scores an adult human can have from 3 to 8 (as well as opening up the possibility for exceptions, such as lobotomised or drugged out victims to have <8), creating more freedom in how to differentiate between smart and stupid animals, and small and really small animals, for instance.

But there are many BRP games who doesn't use this rule, preferring not to create special cases out of any characteristic over the added "space" for semi-intelligent and really small creatures. So it isn't like this rule is absolutely integral to BRP as a rules framework.

[soltakss]

Yes, RQ3 brought 2D6+6 in because the averages meant that you had a lot more really short people than you would expect, even for an ancient setting.

If you interpret INT as IQ/10, then RQ2 had an average IQ of 105 (INT 10.5) but on in 200 had an IQ of 30, which is way too high a chance for way too low an IQ.

2D6+6 isn't really a problem, though.

[PK Games]

I usually retain the 2D6+6 for SIZ but not INT. Just a personal preference. But I also prefer 4D6 drop the lowest dice and arrange stats as you wish.

If I allow this for SIZ once SIZ is assigned it must be at least an 8.

[RMS]

In my first reading of the rules, the first thing that struck me as being a bit odd was that the INT and SIZ stats are 2d6+6 instead of being done as 3d6 like everything else. Why is this? It seems weird that all pc's are meant to be smarter and bigger than average.

As already noted, average INT and SIZ for humans are 13. Both are in place to allow those stats to scale down to represent the intelligence and size of insects. Traditionally, different dice are rolled for various species ability rolls so it's not really out of line with how the rest of the system works. For example, and elf might have 2d4+2 STR, 2d6+3 SIZ, 2d6+8 INT, and 1d6+12 POW for a typical fantasy RPG.

For INT, anything below 8 is considered to not be sapient. INT 7 is the range of other primates, 6 for other intelligent mammals, 5 for less intelligent mammals... down to 2-3 for reptiles, and 1 for insects or similar. A human beneath 8 is challenged to the point of being nonfunctional.

[Atgxtg]

THe 13 average for SIZ and INT wee probably to allow RQ to better handle "generic" fantasy. With humans on a 3-18 range, it made it hard to stat out something like the SIZ of a hobbit.

The 8-18 range gave humans a decent spread for stats while creating more "room" to handle smaller, or less intellgent creatures. It also helped out with the new hit point formula, where SIZ was much more important.

As a plus, it eliminated the low SIZ and or low INT human PCs. Such characters were little more than a "gamer's challenge" anyway.

[mhensley]

As a plus, it eliminated the low SIZ and or low INT human PCs. Such characters were little more than a "gamer's challenge" anyway.

But shouldn't the same logic apply to other stats like Strength as well? Would someone with a Con of 3 even survived long enough to become a pc? Perhaps the best way is the way Elric does it by making all the stats 2d6+6. Or if you don't want above average pc's, weight the middle more heavily by rolling 5d6 (drop the lowest and the highest roll) for each stat. That will produce very average stats.

[Jason D]

Perhaps the best way is the way Elric does it by making all the stats 2d6+6.

Which is ironic, considering the character the game is named after arguably only has a STR and CON in the average range because of the intervention of powerful (and expensive) potions and/or one of the most powerful magical artifacts in the Multiverse.

Prior to attaining Stormbringer, Elric was sickly and feeble without the aid of medicinal draughts. When separated from it and without his drugs, he's barely able to do much more than lie defenseless and weakened to the point of immobility.

[Atgxtg]

But shouldn't the same logic apply to other stats like Strength as well?

To some extent yeah, but SIZ and INT were the "problem stats" with RQ3, and so were the ones adjusted. Personally, I favor 2d6+3 for stats, and used same for my BRP variant rules last year.

One "bug" with the increased SIZ was that the db formula stayed the same, so most people caught the D4 damage bonus.

Would someone with a Con of 3 even survived long enough to become a pc? Perhaps the best way is the way Elric does it by making all the stats 2d6+6. Or if you don't want above average pc's, weight the middle more heavily by rolling 5d6 (drop the lowest and the highest roll) for each stat. That will produce very average stats.

Would someone with very low score in any stat survive for long in a a pre industrial society or be able to function competently as an adventuer? Probably not. But improbable is not impossible. As Jason points out, Erlic is a classic example of an adventuerer with a low CON.

The Erlric RPG kind of cheats. IT uses 2d6+6 for PC heroes as opposed to 3D6 for normal people. Part of the fun of an RQ2/3 character was in starting off with "Joe Average" and watching him develop into a hero. In RQ stats could be trained up, and that 18 STR means a lot more when you built it up from a 14. It sort of ironic though that Elric is the RPG that uses 2d6+6 for stats, since it is the BROP game where the stats probably have the least impact. A 4 DEX in RQ is a much bigger hinderance than a 4 DEX would be in Elric.

[RMS]

But shouldn't the same logic apply to other stats like Strength as well? Would someone with a Con of 3 even survived long enough to become a pc? Perhaps the best way is the way Elric does it by making all the stats 2d6+6. Or if you don't want above average pc's, weight the middle more heavily by rolling 5d6 (drop the lowest and the highest roll) for each stat. That will produce very average stats.

You're mixing two ideas here. SIZ and INT are 2d6+6 for all humans, not just adventurers, while all humans have 3d6 for other stats. If you roll up an "average Joe" you'd roll 3d6 for STR, CON, POW, DEX, and APP, and would roll 2d6+6 for SIZ and INT.

If you want PC's to have better stats than average or have a minimum to qualify, then you can certainly allow them to replace all the 3d6 rolls with 2d6+6. You could leave SIZ and INT as 2d6+6 or change them, perhaps allowing players to roll 3d6 and picking the two they prefer. (Since lower SIZ has some advantages, there's a decent chance that a player would prefer average or even below average SIZ for a given character.) You might shift only some stats around for a given campaign: all mages might get a bonus to INT and POW and nothing else, while a group of special forces might get boosted physical stats but only get a guaranteed minimum INT and POW, and roll APP like everyone else. The sky's the limit.

I used to make players roll the stats straight but allow the player to reroll one die for each stat. The catch was that they had to take the reroll even if it was worse than the original roll. This generally kept players from having horrible stats, but didn't allow too many uber-stats. (Admittedly, it was also before I'd seen anyone actually suggest any suggestions in print for PC's having better than average stats!)

[Atgxtg]

You're mixing two ideas here. SIZ and INT are 2d6+6 for all humans, not just adventurers, while all humans have 3d6 for other stats. If you roll up an "average Joe" you'd roll 3d6 for STR, CON, POW, DEX, and APP, and would roll 2d6+6 for SIZ and INT.

Not necessarily. Thanks to Elric!, there is, indeed a game where PCs roll 2d6+6 for SIZ and INT while other humans roll 3D6.

Personally, I am not fond of the version of BRP used in the Elric! rules. From a game mechanics perspective, I think it is probably the worse ruleset to be released by Chasoium.

[RMS]

Not necessarily. Thanks to Elric!, there is, indeed a game where PCs roll 2d6+6 for SIZ and INT while other humans roll 3D6.

Really? I own Elric! and never noticed that. I guess it follows though since Elric! has 2d6+6 for all stats for PCs and 3d6 for other humans.

Personally, I am not fond of the version of BRP used in the Elric! rules. From a game mechanics perspective, I think it is probably the worse ruleset to be released by Chasoium.

I like character creation in Elric! overall, but greatly prefer SB1-3 for combat and magic, or just going back to RQ2/3. I like skill bonuses and thought leaving them out of Elric! was a huge mistake. I like the old summoning style of magic much more than the modern "balanced" version of it, and while sorcery was ok in Elric! it pales next to the full blown version taken from RQ3.

[Conrad]

Would someone with very low score in any stat survive for long in a a pre industrial society or be able to function competently as an adventuer? Probably not. But improbable is not impossible. As Jason points out, Erlic is a classic example of an adventuerer with a low CON.

The Erlric RPG kind of cheats. IT uses 2d6+6 for PC heroes as opposed to 3D6 for normal people.

My views in an earlier post in this thread are due to my cutting my teeth running Elric! Using the 2d6+6 for PCs, and 3d6 for NPCs rules I don't see as "cheating". PC adventurers should be a cut above your Average Joe. After all they're the ones fighting demons and bad guys to save average Joe's bacon.

Someone having a very low stat could survive, in a pre industrial society ( do you mean medieval?) with help from their friends. Low CON might just be the death of them if there was a plague though. As to becoming a functional adventurer, low STR characters could become spellcasters if their POW was high enough. Even characters with low hit points could take advantage of armour and shields, so it isn't as bad as it seems. We haven't even touched upon the subject of increasing stats through training...

Besides, adventurers tend to gravitate into groups that help each other.

Edited November 22, 2008 by Conrad

[Conrad]

Personally, I am not fond of the version of BRP used in the Elric! rules. From a game mechanics perspective, I think it is probably the worse ruleset to be released by Chasoium.

I love the Elric! rules and I'm glad that Chaosium incorporated them into the BRP rulesbook. I've never been a fan of the Runequest type rules and I have an allergy to ducks.

[Atgxtg]

Really? I own Elric! and never noticed that. I guess it follows though since Elric! has 2d6+6 for all stats for PCs and 3d6 for other humans.

Yup, it's hidden in the section with the "genric" NPC stats.

I like character creation in Elric! overall, but greatly prefer SB1-3 for combat and magic, or just going back to RQ2/3. I like skill bonuses and thought leaving them out of Elric! was a huge mistake. I like the old summoning style of magic much more than the modern "balanced" version of it, and while sorcery was ok in Elric! it pales next to the full blown version taken from RQ3.

I say we agree on Eric! But then we seem to do that alot on game mechanics.I hate the combat matrix, and generally prefer SB or RQ3 over it too. SB1 was a little too much, but it did get toned down a bit. OF course there was way too much magic in the RPG, since all the majorNPCs from the saga ended up needing demon weapons and (especially) demon armor to withstand any sorceror PC. My favorite character generation system for BRPmight be the the one from SB, or maybe the one from Magic World.

[Atgxtg]

My views in an earlier post in this thread are due to my cutting my teeth running Elric! Using the 2d6+6 for PCs, and 3d6 for NPCs rules I don't see as "cheating". PC adventurers should be a cut above your Average Joe.

Why? Most heroes, in real life or fiction usually start off as Joe Average and grow into being heroes. THe whole "Heore7s Joureny" thing ends up being a very short trip. Having all the PCs start off with 100%+ in a weapon skill has a much bigger impact on the game (and a negaive one) than the 2d6+6 does.

After all they're the ones fighting demons and bad guys to save average Joe's bacon.

In Erlic!? More like they are the ones summoning the demonds and killing Joe Average in the first place. The Young Kingdoms are a pretty dark place. It's Elric, not Lord of the Rings.

Someone having a very low stat could survive, in a pre industrial society ( do you mean medieval?) with help from their friends.

Pre-Industiral= A society that existed prior to the industrial revolution. It includes medieval, as well as some more and less advanced cultures. Basically the lack of certain technologies and resources, survival becomes much more difficult. Just producing enough food to feed everybody is a big problem. Prior to the invention of the horse plow, you nned about 9 out of every ten people working providing food just to be able to feed most everyone, most of the time. And about a third of the time even that isn't enough, and you end up with famine. Unless people happen to be firends with the local noble or bishop, their "friends" probably are having enough trouble just trying to survive let alone help. Take a look at prety much any RPG setting and think out just how many people have to be farmers just to support one guy with sword, armor, and horse, his family, squire, severants and craftsmen. Its the reason why the feudal system evoved the way it did.

Someine with a low stat is probably not going to be able to do his full share of the work load and would therefore suffer increased burden, making it even more difficult to get by. That'S why life expectancy was so low.

Low CON might just be the death of them if there was a plague though.

Yup. Even a high CON isn't a guarantee of survival either. Without science, or (maybe) magic, there isn't much a character can do to avoid disaease other than avoid other people. Even that won't do much good if the plague targets livestock or crops.

It surprises me just how much fantasy RPGs tend to downplay the whole food issue, since it was probably the single most important factor in shaping all those medevial settings. Most games give the felling that adventueres can just go down to the market and buy all the food they want, if they got the gold.

As to becoming a functional adventurer, low STR characters could become spellcasters if their POW was high enough. Even characters with low hit points could take advantage of armour and shields, so it isn't as bad as it seems. We haven't even touched upon the subject of increasing stats through training...

Besides, adventurers tend to gravitate into groups that help each other.

Yes, character have options. Even those with low stats. Well, expect possibly low INT. Really dumb characters probably aren't bright enough to know that they need to do certain things, and hopefully one or more smarter characters can look after them. A character with a 3 INT makes a lousy PC anyway.

But, since Elric uses 2d6+6, it keeps players from having to deal with such challenges. AN 8 or 9 stat isn't wonderful, but it is playable an only a minor hindrance. A 5 DEx, in any BRP related RPG is quite a hurdle. It really cuts down on the weapon selection.

[fmitchell]

There's also an option of letting PCs use point-buy, and only rolling up NPCs. The campaign I hope to get off the ground next month or after New Year's will take that approach. (The PCs are actually young orcs, so a baseline of 10 for all stats including INT and SIZ actually works.)

You can borrow solutions from other games, too. WFRP has a rule called "Shallya's Mercy" in which a player can change exactly one below-average roll to average. D&D 4e has a "standard array" (16, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10 if I recall) of stat numbers a PC can assign to his stats; BRP needs a couple more for SIZ and possibly EDU.

Finally, since rolling up characters is fairly quick, one can roll up N proto-characters at once and let the player choose which one he wants. (Or N+k for N players, and let them choose the ones they want.)

[RMS]

Finally, since rolling up characters is fairly quick, one can roll up N proto-characters at once and let the player choose which one he wants. (Or N+k for N players, and let them choose the ones they want.)

I've done that before with RQ. I just let everyone roll up 5-6 characters straight and pick the one they liked.

I've also just let players assign characteristics as to coincide with their vision of their character. I've noted before that this was an interesting experiment on my part because players were very loath to assign high stats to their characters, and actually took some encouragement from me if it fit their vision. I've used it several times since with equally good results.

[Conrad]

Why? Most heroes, in real life or fiction usually start off as Joe Average and grow into being heroes.

Yes, but we aren't talking real life or fiction here. We are talking roleplaying game, which has different dynamics.

In Erlic!? More like they are the ones summoning the demonds and killing Joe Average in the first place. It's Elric, not Lord of the Rings.

My players took a leaf out of Elric's book and avoided summoning demons after the first few meaty deaths. They preferred elementals, specifically earth ones. They were fighting for the Balance, keeping Law and Chaos at arms length. So the killings were generally of bad guys and not the average Joe populace.

[Al.]

Houserule rather than RAW

I prefer characteristics rolled on 3d6

BUT any roll of a '1' is treated as a '2'

So minimum for humans is 6 in any score

Whilst nominal average is 11 which is more in line with what I want than the nominal average of 13 for 2d6+6

Al

[Shiba Homer]

Yes, but we aren't talking real life or fiction here. We are talking roleplaying game, which has different dynamics.

Actually I thought the whole point of RQ and BRP was that you were playing an ordinary guy who becomes a hero. If you want out of the ordinary from the start go play D&D or Vampire or Mage or some such.