Balazaar in 1625?

[David Scott]

2 hours ago, Leingod said:

Votank's mother is Uryarda, a goat goddess.

May Ask what your source for this is as Griffin Mountain states that Votank's mother is Hearth Woman and is father is Foundchild. 

2 hours ago, Leingod said:

the Votanki are most closely related to the Pelorians, IIRC

Don't see how, as they were at in their own encampment Erou at the Dawn.

[Leingod]

7 minutes ago, David Scott said:

May Ask what your source for this is as Griffin Mountain states that Votank's mother is Hearth Woman and is father is Foundchild. 

It was on the wiki as being in The Glorious ReAscent of Yelm, though looking through that book now I don't see that. However, it does definitely say that Votank's father is Durbaddath, not Foundchild.

The idea of Votank as Foundchild's son might have caught on with the Votanki at some later point after they abandoned or otherwise lost the worship of Durbaddath (as he is stated to have Votanki worshipers in the ReAscent but doesn't seem to be present in Balazar as of the Hero Wars). And as noted above, the "Ergeshites" of Six Ages are goat-herders who worship two different goat goddesses and whose warriors wear the hides of lions.

Edited September 29, 2018 by Leingod

[metcalph]

16 minutes ago, Leingod said:

It was on the wiki as being in The Glorious ReAscent of Yelm, though looking through that book now I don't see that. However, it does definitely say that Votank's father is Durbaddath, not Foundchild.

It's inferred from the following detail on the Gods Wall

The Goat-woman is Uryarda and the Lion-man is Durbaddath.  The little tyke then is obviously the child of the two, right?

Here's where it get's complicated.  In the Glorious ReAscent (p62), Plentonius identifies this as Ergesh but a footnote actually says that it is Votank.   Now in the Guide to Glorantha, he's named Zarkos instead.   There's still mention of Durbaddath cultists in Votankiland in the previous footnote which is either evidence that there's still some sort of relationship or that the Gregging Scribes slipped up.  

Is Votank Zarkos?  I really don't know.  Having two sets of parents isn't unknown in Glorantha.  A stronger objection is that Votank appeared in the Great Darkness whereas the Gods Wall depicts the Gods worshipped in the Golden Age.  .  If I were to say that Votank is Zarkos then I would say that Votank is reborn in every age to lead his people from whatever calamity (Flood, Civilized People, Storm Gods etc) that has beset them.

 

[Leingod]

5 minutes ago, metcalph said:

It's inferred from the following detail on the Gods Wall

The Goat-woman is Uryarda and the Lion-man is Durbaddath.  The little tyke then is obviously the child of the two, right?

Here's where it get's complicated.  In the Glorious ReAscent (p62), Plentonius identifies this as Ergesh but a footnote actually says that it is Votank.   Now in the Guide to Glorantha, he's named Zarkos instead.   There's still mention of Durbaddath cultists in Votankiland in the previous footnote which is either evidence that there's still some sort of relationship or that the Gregging Scribes slipped up.  

Is Votank Zarkos?  I really don't know.  Having two sets of parents isn't unknown in Glorantha.  A stronger objection is that Votank appeared in the Great Darkness whereas the Gods Wall depicts the Gods worshipped in the Golden Age.  .  If I were to say that Votank is Zarkos then I would say that Votank is reborn in every age to lead his people from whatever calamity (Flood, Civilized People, Storm Gods etc) that has beset them.

 

Thanks for the info. I like the speculation that Votank is reborn in each Age; it doesn't quite match up with dates or anything, but that would be an interesting way to tie Votank in with Balazar by having some claim that Balazar was Votank's incarnation, and some theoretical new king might claim to be the same during the Hero Wars.

[soltakss]

My take was that Votank was abandoned as a baby by Durbaddath and found by Hearth Woman, who then raised him. He then becomes an aspect of Foundchild, hence his hunter magic.

Edited September 29, 2018 by soltakss

[Sir_Godspeed]

7 hours ago, David Scott said:

Don't see how, as they were at in their own encampment Erou at the Dawn.

As others have noted, the idea seems to be that the Votanki are descended from the Zarkosites.

[Sir_Godspeed]

9 hours ago, Leingod said:

This all may actually be a prehistorical thing for the Votanki, BTW. In Six Ages: Ride Like the Wind, one of the neighboring peoples are called the Ergeshites by the Hyalorings (a people who broke off from the Dara Happans, who identify Votank as Ergesh). They are known as goat-herders who worship two goat goddesses, and a few events involve meeting Ergeshite warriors, who wear lion pelts.

Well, damn. If we take that as canon and at face value, it certainly seems to tie up some threads very conveniently.

[Sir_Godspeed]

10 hours ago, Darius West said:

For what it's worth, I got it from Greg's own mouth.  He said it was because of goats destructive grazing habits that generate deserts.  He also said that it was primarily an Orlanthi prejudice, but extended to other cultures too.  Thed was the original goat goddess btw.  There is a whole sub-thread in Broo culture that your "pure" broo is a goat broo.  As to Ragnaglar having a ram's head, well, he needs to symbolically represent rapey lust as he was driven crazy during his initiation.  When an Orlanthi sees a goat, he doesn't see a goat, he sees a form of broo, such is the Orlanthi hatred of goats.  I expect Praxians are even less tolerant.  On the other hand, that doesn't mean Votanki have the same prejudice.

The Great Goat appears to have been Ragnaglar's Wild Companion during the descent from Dini. Whether that is literally Thed, or some other kind of thing going on, it does create a relation between him and goats that carry on to Broos.

But, as others pointed out, the Balazarings might not care, or if they do, they might make very different conclusions.


EDIT: I'm very sorry for multiposting. I just couldn't find out how to just quote part of a post and have it stay in the posting box when I switched pages.

Edited September 30, 2018 by Sir_Godspeed

[Leingod]

4 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Well, damn. If we take that as canon and at face value, it certainly seems to tie up some threads very conveniently.

Holy crap never mind. The Votanki actually appear in this game under their own name in the Dog Hills. Maybe the Ergeshites and Votanki are actually two separate splinter groups descended from the Zarkosites?

 

Edited September 30, 2018 by Leingod

[jajagappa]

10 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

As others have noted, the idea seems to be that the Votanki are descended from the Zarkosites.

I'm not convinced this is true.  The natives of Jarst and Garsting (now cut off from Peloria by chaos-bound Tork), yes, as the naming of Zarkos/Jarst/Garsting all tie to the Arcos River.  And the Zarkosites appear in Murharzarm's Muster as the forces from the southeast.  But IIRC, later use of Votanki to fill this DH-based army muster did not fully enable the earlier magic brought by the Zarkosites.

[Joerg]

The Gods Wall identifications of the Pelorians build on the Ark myth and try to explain all (real) humans as descendants of the people who sailed with Anaxial, hence the weird claims for Uldoviham as ancestor of the Elvtios Lodrili, Darsenites, and Uryardan Zarkosites. Glorious ReAscent claims that the Ram People were descendants of Uldoviham (p.25).

They don't even agree with the Darjiini ancestry (or they work Yestendos the boater, and Bethegus the blue boater of the west into the picture) and don't really explain the Rinliddi/Kestinaddi bird folk, either. (Kestinendos claims an unbroken male heritage from Murharzarm, but his ancestors don't appear to have been on the Ark.)

Survivors of the Flood could have come from Saird, or they could have come from the far side of the standing wave (going by the name Aroka Sea) separating Kerofinela and Saird from Genert's Garden, Prax and the Elder Wilds foothills of the eastern Rockwood giant mountains.

The Votanki may have been flood survivors on the far side, sharing their Foundchild and Brother Dog cults with the people of Genert's Garden possibly as early as the Dara Happan glaciation. (The original Ice Age animated movie might as well be part of Foundchild's myth...)

[metcalph]

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

 But IIRC, later use of Votanki to fill this DH-based army muster did not fully enable the earlier magic brought by the Zarkosites.

Can you give details?  The only reference to the Zarkosites not working out that I know of is the Battle of Night and Day where the Vanchites are equiped by the King as bronze clad peltasts.

Currently the practice is to use Thunder Delta slingers who are not Zarkosites and they work fine.

[Joerg]

The goat-herding Zarkosites are still around in the former blank lands of Jarst and Garsting. They have ceased to be a military factor in the region, and have been conquered by horse nomads or Dara Happans alternatingly. They probably share Gerendetho with the Kostaddi folk (and the Sable riders of the Hungry Plateau) and worship deities of sky and light behooving their lesser station.

In the Anaxial myth, they are even more civilized than the Darsenite second disembarkers.

A bit ironically, they must have been kin to the Starlight Wanderer ancestors of the charioteers of Kargzant from whom the Veshtargos (Arkos or Argos in their name) and possibly the Hirenmador were descended.

 

There don't appear to be domestic goats upriver of the Elf Sea, but otherwise everywhere in the Arcos lowlands (including the tributary valleys). Balazar has the eubuck instead, an taboo/sacred antelope rather than a goat (but those differences are extremely gradual). Gerendetho (Earth Walker and goat god) is sufficiently antelope-affine to be accepted as a husband of Eiritha.

There will be chamois or ibex in or along the Rockwood Mountains, both really just varieties of wild goats. Just not domestic.

[jajagappa]

5 hours ago, metcalph said:

Can you give details?  The only reference to the Zarkosites not working out that I know of is the Battle of Night and Day where the Vanchites are equiped by the King as bronze clad peltasts.

The original mention is from "The First Muster" in GRoY (p.85) and Greg's The Alkoth Book (from 1995): "From the Southeast came the zarkos.  They were bare-footed and wore goat hides, and they carried leather slings and pouches of rocks, each glowing with deadly magic.  They could run all day without getting tired, and were sharp-eyed and honest."

As for things being different later, the only other reference I can immediately find is what is suggested in FS (p.47) with Yelmgatha's Muster:  "Yelmgatha did not wait, but sent his magical messengers out upon the Ancient Muster. Many of those messengers fell, slain by the enemy spirits who intercepted them. Others found no one to answer their call when their reached the ancient sites."

5 hours ago, metcalph said:

The only reference to the Zarkosites not working out that I know of is the Battle of Night and Day where the Vanchites are equiped by the King as bronze clad peltasts.

Actually, yes, that's the one I was thinking of (in WF 15): "His Zarkosians dared to follow only the letter of the ritual.... For ritual purposes, they wore a sling, though none of them knew how to use it. They did not obtain much real blessing from the Emperor, because they did not fit the formula of the language used to bless them."

If the Votanki were the Zarkosites, then they should have been able to muster them instead.  But I think the ancient site from which to muster the Zarkosites was Zulox (GtG p.712).  By the time of the Battle of Night and Day, the Zarkosites had retreated east of the Jord Mountains and Zulox was ruled by Vanch.

[jajagappa]

15 hours ago, Leingod said:

The Votanki actually appear in this game under their own name in the Dog Hills. Maybe the Ergeshites and Votanki are actually two separate splinter groups descended from the Zarkosites?

The Zarkosites and Votanki are distinct at the Dawn though.  GtG notes (p.712): "Zulox: This was a sacred breeding place of the Zarkosite people. They were pastoral goat-herders who worshiped Durbaddath the Lion Father, Uryarda the Goat Mother, and Zarkos the Ancestor. There were other clans of Zarkosites in Garsting and Jarst." and (p.711): "Arau: This sacred grove in the Dog Hills was the gathering place for the Votanki people. They were hunter-gatherers who used dogs and worshiped Votank and Brother Dog."

If you are pastoralists herding goats, why go back to hunter-gatherer?

[jeffjerwin]

3 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

If you are pastoralists herding goats, why go back to hunter-gatherer?

Uryarda was 'separated' (ritually/magically) from them by some experience in the Early Storm Age? (Just throwing that out there). It's possible to lose access to valuable skills via a curse, cultural cataclysm, or some such, I think, in Glorantha. Hunting and Gathering is sometimes better as survival strategy as well.

[jajagappa]

1 minute ago, jeffjerwin said:

Uryarda was 'separated' (ritually/magically) from them by some experience in the Early Storm Age?

Certainly possible, but there could be any number of other routes.  They could be from among the Starlight Ancestors, too, who lost their horses and were forced to forage on foot, only saved by Brother Dog.

[jeffjerwin]

2 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Certainly possible, but there could be any number of other routes.  They could be from among the Starlight Ancestors, too, who lost their horses and were forced to forage on foot, only saved by Brother Dog.

That seems plausible.

[Sir_Godspeed]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

The Zarkosites and Votanki are distinct at the Dawn though.  GtG notes (p.712): "Zulox: This was a sacred breeding place of the Zarkosite people. They were pastoral goat-herders who worshiped Durbaddath the Lion Father, Uryarda the Goat Mother, and Zarkos the Ancestor. There were other clans of Zarkosites in Garsting and Jarst." and (p.711): "Arau: This sacred grove in the Dog Hills was the gathering place for the Votanki people. They were hunter-gatherers who used dogs and worshiped Votank and Brother Dog."

If you are pastoralists herding goats, why go back to hunter-gatherer?

Just gonna add that, as far as Pelorian chronology is concerned, the Dawn really isn't that long ago. If Zarkos was ruined with the Flood or Ice Age (I forget which), then that still leaves a lot of the Storm Age for peoples to differentiate from each other.

It doesn't take much more than desperate, terrified survivors losing their last goats to plague, and some myths to the death of an elder, a few generations inbetween, and whoopse-daisy you're now hunter-gatherers.

But as you mentioned, that's just one of several possibilities.

There's also differentiating between what the Dara Happans believe about the Votanki and what their actual origin is. 

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

The Zarkosites and Votanki are distinct at the Dawn though.  GtG notes (p.712): "Zulox: This was a sacred breeding place of the Zarkosite people. They were pastoral goat-herders who worshiped Durbaddath the Lion Father, Uryarda the Goat Mother, and Zarkos the Ancestor. There were other clans of Zarkosites in Garsting and Jarst." and (p.711): "Arau: This sacred grove in the Dog Hills was the gathering place for the Votanki people. They were hunter-gatherers who used dogs and worshiped Votank and Brother Dog."

However the Tunoralings of Lolon are described as ancestral to the Vanch (Guide p339) who were supposed to fight in the Zarkosite style at the Battle of Night and Day but their King decided otherwise (implied in p25 of History of the Heortling Peoples).  So merely because the people of Zulox are described as Zarkosites does not preclude others from being so.  Moreover all the Dara Happans concerned was fighting style - they didn't really care if the people herded goats or hunted so long as they bore slings in battle.

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

If you are pastoralists herding goats, why go back to hunter-gatherer?

Perhaps you settled elf-woods who disliked the goats munching on their trees.  

[jajagappa]

9 minutes ago, metcalph said:

However the Tunoralings of Lolon are described as ancestral to the Vanch

The Tunoralings are the raccoon folk followers of Tunoral the Raccoon God and the Green Woman, and are definitely not the Zarkosites.

14 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

If Zarkos was ruined with the Flood or Ice Age (I forget which), then that still leaves a lot of the Storm Age for peoples to differentiate from each other.

The origin story of the Zarkosites is that Uryarda disembarked from the Ark to settle the land.  We know little of the Arcos Valley during the Gods War, so it could well have been affected by its own Flood.  However, it's also possible that Uryarda's goat herders simply climbed up the mountains during the Floods and then came back down when the waters retreated.

The Ice never reached the Arcos Valley - the Glacier stops at the Hill of Gold.

Chaos, though, does come through and melts the Gap of Tork.  Possible that such forces any number of folk south to become Votanki.

[jeffjerwin]

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

The Tunoralings are the raccoon folk followers of Tunoral the Raccoon God and the Green Woman, and are definitely not the Zarkosites.

The origin story of the Zarkosites is that Uryarda disembarked from the Ark to settle the land.  We know little of the Arcos Valley during the Gods War, so it could well have been affected by its own Flood.  However, it's also possible that Uryarda's goat herders simply climbed up the mountains during the Floods and then came back down when the waters retreated.

The Ice never reached the Arcos Valley - the Glacier stops at the Hill of Gold.

Chaos, though, does come through and melts the Gap of Tork.  Possible that such forces any number of folk south to become Votanki.

If Chaos was the cause of the Votanki separation there's a pretty rational and grim reason why goats were abandoned by the proto-Votanki.

[metcalph]

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

The Tunoralings are the raccoon folk followers of Tunoral the Raccoon God and the Green Woman, and are definitely not the Zarkosites.

They however served in the Dara Happan army at the Battle of Night and Day as though they were meant to be Zarkosites.

Much of the confusion I feel is that we are arguing over multiple definitions of Zarkosites.

• The people who call themselves Zarkosites.
• The people that the Dara Happans call Zarkosites.
• Any people descended from the Golden Age Kingdom of Zarkos.

Your position is that the people of Zulox are Zarkosites.  That's fine.  You also think that nobody else (ie the Votanki and the Tunoralings) refers to themselves as Zarkosites.  I can agree with that.  Where I think you go to far is suggesting that the Dara Happans do not consider the Tunoralings or the Votanki Zarkosites (the evidence is clear that they felt the Tunoralings to be Zarkosites) or that there is no connection between the Golden Age Kingdom of Zarkos, the Tunoralings and the Votanki

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

The origin story of the Zarkosites is that Uryarda disembarked from the Ark to settle the land.  

That's not the origin of the Zarkosites.  That's the Dara Happan myth of how the Zarkosites ended up where they live after the Flood.  Zarkos existed before the Flood.  When Yelm ruled at Yuthubars, Zarkos is shown to the southeast as the land of Serenity (Glorious ReAscent p8).  Zarkos is again shown as being extant when Murharzarm established the Ten Cities (Glorious ReAscent p12). When the Gods Wall was built, people shown in Zarkosite fashions (hides and furs according to the Glorious ReAscent p56).  All this is before the Flood.  Even the myths of Uryarda getting off the boat early refers to this when it says "The wide open oat fields made her homesick, and so she debarked m Zarkos where her folk lived a clean,,, pious, and respectable lifestyle.  In this way the Outer Nations were started again, and their plants and animals were distributed again through the world." Glorious ReAscent p22.  As an aside I don't believe all the Golden Age Zarkosites were wiped out by the Flood but that's irrelevant here.

So there is a clear continuity between the Golden Age Kingdom of Zarkos and the country founded after the Flood.

 

 

[metcalph]

5 hours ago, jajagappa said:

As for things being different later, the only other reference I can immediately find is what is suggested in FS (p.47) with Yelmgatha's Muster:  "Yelmgatha did not wait, but sent his magical messengers out upon the Ancient Muster. Many of those messengers fell, slain by the enemy spirits who intercepted them. Others found no one to answer their call when their reached the ancient sites."

That merely may have been referring to the fact that the Pelandans and the Darjiinians were still under Carmanian control.

And the magic is more tolerant of differences than you suggest.  The original ritual required the use of Jarasans (Glorious ReAscent p85) riding Tall Birds but Cavalry was later used (Glorious ReAscent cover picture, Entekosiad p51 and the Day Owls at the Battle of Night and Day (History of the Heortling Peoples p26).

As for the magic required that the troops be summoned from the ancient sites, I don't think that is required.  Gartemirus for example is not summoned but merely asked by an exile who had asked for help (Entekosioad p51).  The exile has also obtained horses but these are from the south (Nivorah) rather than being from the northwest (where the Riskestings were).

Likewise Periades provides Zarkosians but only follows the letter of the ritual (History of the Heortling Peoples).  If he were magically summoned  then either the spell wouldn't have worked on him since he no longer followed Zarkosite ways (if he ever did) or impelled him to outfit troops in the required fashion (which he doesn't).  Since he's following the letter (and not the spirit), it seems to me he's acting of free will.

5 hours ago, jajagappa said:

If the Votanki were the Zarkosites, then they should have been able to muster them instead.  But I think the ancient site from which to muster the Zarkosites was Zulox (GtG p.712).  By the time of the Battle of Night and Day, the Zarkosites had retreated east of the Jord Mountains and Zulox was ruled by Vanch.

Zulox lies at the border of Vanch (Guide p715) with the Zarkosites not far off.  It shouldn't have been too hard to send emissiaries to the Zarkosites asking them to show up at the required meeting place. 

[jajagappa]

18 hours ago, metcalph said:

Your position is that the people of Zulox are Zarkosites.  That's fine.  You also think that nobody else (ie the Votanki and the Tunoralings) refers to themselves as Zarkosites.  I can agree with that. 

Yes to both point.

18 hours ago, metcalph said:

Where I think you go to far is suggesting that the Dara Happans do not consider the Tunoralings or the Votanki Zarkosites

My belief is that the DH consider anyone from the southeast of DH to be zarkosites (i.e. the word effectively means 'southeasterner' whether in origin or later adoption).  Therefore, anytime the DH want a formal muster on ancient lines, they want someone included to serve as zarkosites and that someone has to come from the southeast of DH.  Tunoralings/Vanchites, or Sidarsi/Imtherians, or Balurgans, or Votanki, or true Zarkosites work for the DH because they are all 'southeastern'.  My point was that while any can serve as long as they include the correct accountrements (i.e. sling), not all will produce the correct magical results since most are not true Zarkosites.

18 hours ago, metcalph said:

Zarkos existed before the Flood.  When Yelm ruled at Yuthubars, Zarkos is shown to the southeast as the land of Serenity (Glorious ReAscent p8).  Zarkos is again shown as being extant when Murharzarm established the Ten Cities (Glorious ReAscent p12). When the Gods Wall was built, people shown in Zarkosite fashions (hides and furs according to the Glorious ReAscent p56).  All this is before the Flood.

Yes, that is all correct.  And I agree with you that I don't believe the Zarkosites were wiped out by the Flood.  The followers of Uryarda, who are definitely called Zarkosites, 'disembark' the Ark there because they are already/still there.  Whether they actually are related to the inhabitants of Zarkos, the Land of Serenity, is another question.

17 hours ago, metcalph said:

Zulox lies at the border of Vanch (Guide p715) with the Zarkosites not far off.  It shouldn't have been too hard to send emissiaries to the Zarkosites asking them to show up at the required meeting place.

Except by the time of the Battle of Night and Day, the Tunoralings have come to be known as the Vanchites and have 'stolen' Zulox for their own. Also the Elder Wilds have overrun the area to the east (GtG p.127).  By 400 (GtG p.130), Ozarcos has reclaimed much of the area (could well be post-Sunstop/Battle of Night and Day as Nysalor's allies drive back the trolls), though we do not know the relationship of Ozarcos to DH at this time.