Orin Jistil and the Skull Ruins

[Joerg]

42 minutes ago, g33k said:

You would, however, be mistaken in that.

They are usually played with hammers and mallets and similar implements.

The piano is a percussive instrument by this definition, too, as is the dulcimer. Whoever can have harps can also have dulcimers, so I have little doubt these exist in Glorantha.

Pianos only if dwarves play music, and IIRC the thread about what music styles which culture would hear said that dwarves would listen to industrial or maybe techno. Iron mostali will enjoy the sound of death metal even without music. Probably punctuated by blackpowder discharges.

I have little doubt that somewhere there are trollkin trained to squeal at a certain pitch when tapped with a club, which would mean a percussion instrument, too.

42 minutes ago, g33k said:

In a symphony, they sit with the drums and other percussive instruments.

Modern use in the symphony orchestra or in the marching band needn't reflect their use in ancient times or earlier. Bells usually have a beater inside, and many chimes, especially those worn by dancers, do so, too, or are activated by dinging them one into another. You can also let a bell sing much like you can do with water glasses. Then there are cymbals (or their modern mechanised version used by drummers to add to their snare and normal drums.

(My one trip as a musician in Glorantha was in a MGF system game hosted by MOB where I played a Brithini triangulist with an (unenchanted) iron triangle and the special ability of stage diving. IIRC this was set in Pavis.)

I have recently seen a video (I think on neanderthals) which suggested that certain stalagtites in a cave with bone and tool finds might have served as tonal percussive instrument, a lithophone (analogous to the xylophone which uses wooden vibrating bodies) - apparently there was some ancient wear and tear on these.

Rattle and bull-roarer are both associated with Storm.

42 minutes ago, g33k said:

Wikipedia has a list of percussion instruments, and bells & chimes are listed there; if you look them up directly,  they are explicitly categorized as such.

The concept of a percussion instrument still goes to Darkness, with the drum and probably other stuff you hit with rocks or clubs that go plonk. Drums can be quite tonal, too - I once heard someone play something like a tune on a bodhran, and timpani/kettledrums can even manage a glissando. Still, on the whole I think they produce dark booms rather than bright chimes.

 

[jeffjerwin]

7 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

K-or, G-or means 'terrible, angry Earth'. This is pretty established; it may be an elided compound word. Perhaps W-or, V-or could mean 'sweet, maiden Earth'

Orendana is 'Queen Earth', Ernalda as queen of the Gods... 

We should also note 'Zoria', goddess of Love in Fronela.

The 'Cup of Orin' was one of the marriage gifts given by Argrath to the Queen of Holay...

[Ian Cooper]

So attached is the artwork that graced the cover of Storm Tribe, Barbarian Adventures, and Imperial Lunar Handbook. It was not originally intended to be split across those books, but used as a wraparound cover for Sartar Rising.

Now look behind the dragonewt, vingan, and bird rider. See that body? That is the stone dragon. See behind the vingan? Those are the Skull Ruins.

Greg told me that in his game the 'ruins' were actually the eye sockets and the mouth of the skull, and that is in-house game had a lot of adventures there. I have not seen any scans of material describing what they found, but just in case that helps, this is how Greg used them.

The artwork here, by Stefanio Gaudiano  (who also works on The Walking Dead comic book) was commissioned by Greg, based on his campaign experiences.

I discovered this when working on Dragon Pass, Land of Thunder with Greg, when he wrote up those sections based on his house campaign.

Hope that helps.

[jeffjerwin]

Thank you Ian!

The Vingan's use of a horn here is thus made a little more significant, as is the dragonewt's dancing...

 

There's an interesting reddish-brown rock there on the ground. Glancing at my copy of Barbarian Adventures, we see there's a beaked dragonewt hiding behind it.

[jajagappa]

22 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

This leads me to the main point, which is that this could conceivably apply to Maran Gor as well - ie. she is the youthful dancer, the tempestuous earth shaker, and then whatever her crone aspect would be. Or it's her daughter, or she is her own daughter. You know, typical god-stuff - head-screwey, but nothing someone brought up with Trinitarian Christianity can't put their head around.

Yes, Maran can also be Voria but whether she ends as Asrelia or Ty Kora Tek is another question (or most likely she ends up as both).

 

21 hours ago, Joerg said:

I tend to think that Oria is really O-ria, with similar forms in e.g. Denegeria, Orogeria, Naveria - perhaps meaning "-land".

Don't forget PelOria.

21 hours ago, metcalph said:

She is?  The Bestiary p152 says nothing about Maran Gor and even denies that they are either pigs or dogs.

Yes, she is.  It's noted in the Eringulf and the Vanak Spear quest.  In HQG p. 195 "He met Maran Gor before he met Asrelia, and though the pig-dogs that guard her doorway removed his six
allies; they captured one of them, bound it with iron rope, and returned with it."

[scott-martin]

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

PelOria

Heck, GlorOranor

[Pentallion]

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Yes, Maran can also be Voria but whether she ends as Asrelia or Ty Kora Tek is another question (or most likely she ends up as both).

 

Don't forget PelOria.

Yes, she is.  It's noted in the Eringulf and the Vanak Spear quest.  In HQG p. 195 "He met Maran Gor before he met Asrelia, and though the pig-dogs that guard her doorway removed his six
allies; they captured one of them, bound it with iron rope, and returned with it."

But it also says on that same page:  "Maran Gor is the fighting guardian of the Underworld. The pig-dogs do not normally appear with her, but do normally appear in the Underworld."

So you may be inferring too much from that reference.

[jeffjerwin]

52 minutes ago, Pentallion said:

But it also says on that same page:  "Maran Gor is the fighting guardian of the Underworld. The pig-dogs do not normally appear with her, but do normally appear in the Underworld."

So you may be inferring too much from that reference.

Perhaps they are more closely associated with Asrelia (pigs as rooters in the earth for truffles/treasure)? In any case, Asrelia is also associated with Snake Pipe Hollow in the same quest.

[Sir_Godspeed]

10 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Yes, Maran can also be Voria but whether she ends as Asrelia or Ty Kora Tek is another question (or most likely she ends up as both).

I can envision it now, at the end of the Godtime, when Asrelia has left the Bountiful Earth and locked herself below, and a young maiden goddess steps up from the caverns below, her hands becoming twined by snakes, her figure changing to become more matronly: "There must always be an Ernalda."

[jeffjerwin]

There's another tangental connection to Donandar in Ginijji:

Note the Harp in Leika’s Crown-test, and the reference to the ‘Golden Harp’ in the scenario hook in WF 10, and the Rune-dancers on the same page (p.9). The rune dancers gather in a 'floor of tiles' in a forest clearing (note that the Puppeteers gather in Dragon Pass in a random hex in the Stinking Forest).

The hook describes the Golden Harp as being part the 'Cult of the Golden Harp' and hidden in some catacombs which are disputed with the 'forces of Chaos' who fight with them over the underground complex. Telmori ('wolf-brothers') are said to control it. Plucking the string protects the player from Chaos for one hour.

This may be compared to the legend about Umath and Harana Ilor in KoS, where she is the first harp (kinda like Humakt is also a sword?) fashioned by Umath out of the guts of a Pre-dark daimon.

In the Crown-test of Leika Ballista, (see Wyrms Footprints, p.104 – I don’t have the original WF), the heroine and her band discover the Duke of Disorder in the Snake Pipe Caverns. A self-playing Golden Harp (aka Jewelled [sic] Notes) is in the Duke’s possession, and Leika requests the treasure (much to his dismay). This happened in 1613.

The Duke of Disorder would seem to be Eurmal, but I'm not really sure. He may be a distinct Trickster spirit. Valon/Ginijji/Far Point was a Spirit-conquered country during the Flood Era.

Since the Puppeteers circle Ginijji in their ritual sites, I suspect that (their version of) Donandar derives from the Rich Home culture and the Ginijji-Far Point Earth people destroyed during the Greater Darkness. (I've already noted that Donandar is placed between Kerofin and the Castle of Lead, at least by inference.) Donandar is the 'child' of Harana Ilor (along with Issaries and possibly Chalana Arroy).

Compare:

Maran[a] Gor

Harana Ilor

 

Unrelated note on Turim the Giant.... Chalk Man, whose hills are adjacent to Orvano, where Voria was handled over, is also a giant. Could Turim be Chalk Man?

[jeffjerwin]

Further examination of my overlay of the Storm Stead onto Dragon Pass (from my Sword and Helm research):

First, the Empty Mountain is clearly Cragspider's Mountain. It is the 'Gate to Hell' (like the nearby Castle of Lead). The Underworld comes closest to the surface here.

Aedin's Gap is Snake Pipe Hollow.

The legend of Aedin being traded the goddess of joy and the legend of Turim being traded Voria are clearly connected. They share the same geography. Turim = Aedin.

Thus the connection between Asrelia and the Vanak Spear and the post-Time localization of the myth in Snake Pipe Hollow is explained. The 'gap'ness of Aedin's Gap and the existence of the Chaos nest are connected because it's the chink in the defenses of Kerofinela.

The Puppeteers gather on the walls and gate to Kerofinela. Perhaps the Puppets are part of the final defense of the Last Stead against Chaos? They are the shadows and giants constructed out of Elmal's lantern and straw and cloth to look like an army, when there are no warriors left? A 'trick' against the Pre-dark that gives the impression of strength. But it is strength, of course, if it works.

More to come.

[Joerg]

I think that your spiral is a lot smaller than the peaks in Aedin's Wall suggest.

Doktados or Empty Mountain is a peak in the Mislari, a hollow caldera. Blackorm Mt. aka Cliffhome is Conquest Mountain on the inner circle of the spiral. (Thunder Rebels p.137)

The correspondence of that map with Gloranthan geography is somewhat weak, but the peaks are clearly identified.

[jeffjerwin]

32 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I think that your spiral is a lot smaller than the peaks in Aedin's Wall suggest.

Doktados or Empty Mountain is a peak in the Mislari, a hollow caldera. Blackorm Mt. aka Cliffhome is Conquest Mountain on the inner circle of the spiral. (Thunder Rebels p.137)

The correspondence of that map with Gloranthan geography is somewhat weak, but the peaks are clearly identified.

I think that the peaks are displaced/overlap... after all the official geography is impossible... However there are a few fixed points: Kero Fin, Hydra Mountain, Quivin, and Arrowmound are all identifiable, which establishes a rough perimeter, as does Stormwalk. Things were a bit of a jumble during the Gods War and the Greater Darkness. Empty Mountain used to be there: Storm Tribe p.135. If Empty Mountain in Mislari was the original (like Odayla's mountain in Sylila) it would make for a sort of moebius geography.

I'd venture that Orlanth's Holy Mountains all have a connection to Kero Fin, and hence have a mythic landscape corresponding to the ideal Storm Stead/Aedin's Wall. The specific mountain identifications sound like a conflation of disparate myths. The one I'm looking at now is the Dragon Pass mythic landscape. Within that subgroup of Orlanth traditions (admittedly the dominant one since the era of Orlanthland), the chain of mountains create a pretty obvious Air/wind rune, as marked above. Aedin's Gap falls logically at the Snake Pipe Hollow, which makes sense.

The presumption I make is that Empty Mountain is whatever Mountain in the vicinity of the Holy Mountain best exemplifies its runic and legendary geography. So there's probably quite a few...

Cragspider's presence de-sanctifies her area from the Orlanthi perspective, overlaying her own mythos. The Mislari location probably doesn't have such difficulties, but it clearly connects to the Esrolian mythology, not the Dragon Pass version.

In any case, Aedin's Gap was probably also a place of trade and interface with the Other (hence the many spirits gathered here). The Rich Home culture would have become rich as a the market of the Storm culture but would have been profoundly exposed after Chaos began rampaging. This is consistent with the story in Snake Pipe Hollow.

In Esrolia, we find Asrelia or Ezel. But there is - as is clear in other texts - a different Ernaldela east of Kero Fin, where Asrelia was also. Note also the doubling of I Fought We Won. It takes place in both Snake Pipe Hollow and on the Shadow Plateau. Possibly part of the destroyed Rich Home culture migrated to Esrolia and moved 'Asrelia' (who is also the Empty Mountain - compare her representation by the Trolls) with them.

Another comment: the Esrolian remaking of the primeval Earth territory in to be within their boundaries is I think artificial, though it's not a lie - it's just a renovation of their mythic landscape.

Edited September 6, 2018 by jeffjerwin

[Sir_Godspeed]

I'm not sure if it's all that fruitful to think of the wall and its named peaks as objectively present, and try to align the wall accordingly. It's more likely, I believe, that various groups of Orlanthi are incorporating their local holy mountains into the mythical/narrative matrix of the Aedin story, to maintain a tangible connection to the mythic events. Hence why we find that (apparently) the Orlanthi of Lankst consider Top of the World to be the central peak.

Granted, you could say that the Lankstites (and I'd guess other Orlanthi as well) are simply wrong, due to being away from the Vingkotling core area, and later converts - but I'm still wary of a semi-literalist attempt to combine mythic and mundane terrain.

[Joerg]

Just now, Sir_Godspeed said:

I'm not sure if it's all that fruitful to think of the wall and its named peaks as objectively present, and try to align the wall accordingly. It's more likely, I believe, that various groups of Orlanthi are incorporating their local holy mountains into the mythical/narrative matrix of the Aedin story, to maintain a tangible connection to the mythic events. Hence why we find that (apparently) the Orlanthi of Lankst consider Top of the World to be the central peak.

I just don't think that it feels right to reassign Conquest Peak (aka Cliffhome/Blackorm Mountain) to Doktados/Empty Mountain when both these peaks are clearly well-known magical and physical landmarks.

Empty Mountain is the site of the Vanak Spear quest, famously performed by a Berennethtelli living in the shadow of Autumn Mountain, in the neighborhood of Lokamayadon's Talastar.

Top of the World or Umath's Throne are the alternative Big Holy Mountains, each with their local color, and probably without much notion about Aedin and his wall. The Umathelans could have a hedge instead of a wall, for all their interaction with the aldryami. The Ralian/Fronelan fortress builder may be some other creature, and it may have some ramps for chariots, given the Chariot of Lightning movement of Surantyr.

 

Just now, Sir_Godspeed said:

Granted, you could say that the Lankstites (and I'd guess other Orlanthi as well) are simply wrong, due to being away from the Vingkotling core area, and later converts - but I'm still wary of a semi-literalist attempt to combine mythic and mundane terrain.

The perception of Storm Village is heavily dependent on the expectations of the viewer. A Storm Pentan may visit the corral of West King Wind and communicate freely with a Fonritian/Vralan worshipper of Baraku. Boasts of raids etc. will translate into culturally referable feats of the visitors. Visitors trained in mystic or RuneQuest sight might be able to read their exchange in runic archetypes.

The use of Empty Mountain, Conquest Peak etc. is the native geography of holy mountains translated to features of Storm Village. A Umathelan will barely know two sacred peaks, both of which will lie way outside of their range of worship.

[jeffjerwin]

3 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Granted, you could say that the Lankstites (and I'd guess other Orlanthi as well) are simply wrong, due to being away from the Vingkotling core area, and later converts - but I'm still wary of a semi-literalist attempt to combine mythic and mundane terrain.

The trouble is, of course, that the myths can actually be visited, and you - and this occurs in recountings of these visits - 'recognize' terrain, like mountains.

That's how you know your proper direction. Think of Mastakos' directions to Orlanth on the early Westfaring.

Of course, myths align to the worshippers. Geography conforms to expectations, because the 'mountain' is an actual entity, a divinity itself, and could in the God Time, move on its own.

In this case, Asrelia's home is described in a certain way so it can be recognized. Asrelia exists in the inner secret part of the Earth - wherever there is an Earth cult - which is almost everywhere outside the Ocean !.... As I pointed out re. the Arcane Lore book, one of her homes is close to Ginijji.

So her Home must be all over the place.

In any case, the Vanak Spear Quest gives only one clue as to the location of the Empty Mountain: it was next to the 'Storm Age Forest'. Wouldn't it make somewhat more sense for this Empty Mountain to be somewhere in the cultural geography of the Berenethtelli? The story comes from Holay... And the mountains around Cragspider (perhaps our Empty Mountain is a different one nearby) are just about at the exploratory horizon of the Berenethtelli...

 

Edit: the Indigo Mountains are volcanic, like Empty Mountain. They are also riddled with caves. Perhaps Empty Mountain > a former identification of a peak in the Indigo Mountains and Conquest Mountain (which is part of Aedin's Wall) is distinct...

Edited September 7, 2018 by jeffjerwin

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

So her Home must be all over the place.

Of course!  She's only once removed from Gata the Primal Earth which is the Earth lozenge as a whole.

[scott-martin]

5 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

the Indigo Mountains are volcanic, like Empty Mountain. They are also riddled with caves.

The "Umath" Cave in active use within the Redstone Caverns was always a little enigmatic for me at least. 

[jeffjerwin]

5 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

The "Umath" Cave in active use within the Redstone Caverns was always a little enigmatic for me at least. 

Umath being Asrelia's beloved, with whom she never was united.

In the Glorantha Sourcebook, the Puppeteers are performing a myth where the two lovers are separated by the Bright Emperor and the Green Dragon is about to ambush him... Oddly, we know of no such myth in print. Orlanth is later seen carrying the head of the Green Dragon... Which suggests he is Shakaharzeel/Sh'hakarzeel/Sh'harkazeel, the Mover of Heavens... Sh'hakarzeel is the Moon-destroyer/Utuma of the Goddess. Perhaps he was the Utuma of Yelm as well.

[scott-martin]

17 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

Puppeteers are performing a myth where the two lovers are separated by the Bright Emperor and the Green Dragon is about to ambush him

"Behind you!" Love it. I always thought the persistence of trolls within the Troupe was a little mysterious (other than as a framework for introducing shadow puppetry) but once again this thread outperforms. 

I need to digest a lot of this business as it relates to archaic "lowland storms," wife betrayal and so on. You're hot! 

[jeffjerwin]

1 minute ago, scott-martin said:

"Behind you!" Love it. I always thought the persistence of trolls within the Troupe was a little mysterious (other than as a framework for introducing shadow puppetry) but once again this thread outperforms. 

I need to digest a lot of this business as it relates to archaic "lowland storms," wife betrayal and so on. You're hot! 

Donandar defeated Kyger Litor by performing for her (see Cults Compendium, p.232). She loved it. Trolls love a good show, it seems.

[scott-martin]

16 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

Donandar defeated Kyger Litor

I guess that's a better way to frame it: how exactly did the Troupe itself persist within Dragon Pass through the Inhuman Occupation except through, among other strategies, being trolls? It beats the Delecti experience.

[jeffjerwin]

14 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

I guess that's a better way to frame it: how exactly did the Troupe itself persist within Dragon Pass through the Inhuman Occupation except through, among other strategies, being trolls? It beats the Delecti experience.

If they were trolls they seem to have avoided any association with the wars among the Elder Races. I think they also had elves and beast folk.

Their mysterious connection with the Waltzing and Hunting Bands and the Snake Pipe Dancers (whose wyter is an Earth Dragon) however suggests that they may have sidestepped the whole issue.

Of course, if anyone can trick a dragon, it would be a rune cult of Illusion. Maybe the human initiates wore masks.

If there were any humans among them they may also be connected to Sorana Tor. Where did she come from? How did her people survive?

In my game, they have a 'duke' (the Duke of Disorder) and a 'queen of Harmony' (who wears a mask, and whose dress is a mixture of rags and finery). Both are costumes a random initiate wears for tricking 'other' rulers. They don't have leaders. They do seem to have at least one runaway princess (Marlesta of Norinel/Sartar), but I have her as an elderly dancing instructor, Mrs. Esta.

[jeffjerwin]

24 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

 It beats the Delecti experience.

I wonder where the Dancers in Darkness came from?

 

[scott-martin]

11 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

Sorana Tor.

She is a magnificent hot mess now. Do we know any other "Tors" besides Kyger (a stone outcropping or "lith") Lhy Tor? Either way I've been stealing minutes away from the office this week trying to figure out what happened to Arim's family, who had a personal relationship with earthshakers before their doom apparently scattered some north of the Kill. Arim, Aram, who's to say. 

The Duke is a controversial figure with his almost anti-canonical archaic title only seen now in places like the far West and the Blue Moon Plateau of all places. 

Edited September 7, 2018 by scott-martin
The DUKE