Orin Jistil and the Skull Ruins

[jeffjerwin]

15 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

The Duke is a controversial figure with his almost anti-canonical archaic title only seen now in places like the far West and the Blue Moon Plateau of all places. 

And, of course, Harvar, 'duke of Alda-chur' - smack in the middle of all this. He may be the target of the mockery.

 

Duke = Latin 'warlord' = hence probably the same title, just translated differently?

Edited September 7, 2018 by jeffjerwin

[scott-martin]

8 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

Duke = Latin 'warlord' = hence probably the same title, just translated differently?

Oh right, Kargan "Tor." But far be it from me to brake your stride or blur your vision. Focus is critical!

I went back to the map to see if there might be anything like a tour cycle and the original WBRM setup direction ("each of the Ruins except the Upland Marsh and also on the capitals") reveals a little chatter and maybe a fresh signal. Do we know why Furthest and Boldhome had to be built where they were in order to satisfy the puppet path hypothesis?

[jeffjerwin]

20 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Oh right, Kargan "Tor." But far be it from me to brake your stride or blur your vision. Focus is critical!

I went back to the map to see if there might be anything like a tour cycle and the original WBRM setup direction ("each of the Ruins except the Upland Marsh and also on the capitals") reveals a little chatter and maybe a fresh signal. Do we know why Furthest and Boldhome had to be built where they were in order to satisfy the puppet path hypothesis?

Boldhome was inaccessible before Sartar made the road up the mountain. It's very close as the wyrm flies to a Dragonewt City...

Furthest appears 'de novo' in all the recent canon stuff, as far as I can tell, but I also note it seems to have been built on an EWF City ruin according to 'Tarsh in Flames', and the maps, drawn from Greg's notes seem to indeed show an unnamed city there; the equally deuterocanonical Second Age material shows no such city. In fact, the Glorantha Sourcebook (and Tarsh in Flames) shows the Death line passing through the site. So as a former EWF ruin it aligns with the other material.

Note that both of these locations for illusory troops are deleted in Dragon Pass the later edition. Instead, the Spider Vale and Too Far are substituted.

In the RW, that's probably because putting an Illusory troop in the capitals makes it a bit too easy for a player to end up with a useful Independent faction on the first turn.

I also prefer not visiting the rulers directly: make them trek a bit to see your performance. Showing up in his palace makes it seem like you serve him...

Edited September 7, 2018 by jeffjerwin

[Joerg]

14 hours ago, scott-martin said:

I guess that's a better way to frame it: how exactly did the Troupe itself persist within Dragon Pass through the Inhuman Occupation except through, among other strategies, being trolls? It beats the Delecti experience.

Masters of illusion... They probably could pass as anything they wanted if they put up their game face.

I am a bit dubious whether they stayed in the forbidden area during this time. While the Beastfolk and the Kitori probably would have enjoyed their services, and while the trolls of Cliffhome might be willing to host them, too, I see little chance that the Tusk Riders will treat them well after their shows, and no great chance that the dragonewts would be willing to part with food or produce in exchange for their services.

I find it more likely that they roamed the bordering lands north and south of the forbidden zone, possibly bypassing them using the exchange magic with their illusionariy armies.

After all is said and done, the Puppeteers aren't primary producers (though possibly have a side line of hunting and gathering to make ends meet), and need to perform for people able to feed them. Illusionary food will satisfy hunger, but not energy needs.

[Joerg]

13 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

Boldhome was inaccessible before Sartar made the road up the mountain. It's very close as the wyrm flies to a Dragonewt City...

Without Sartar's road, the valley of Boldhome would have made a good mountainous refuge for a clan needing to disappear from the world - similar to the Karandoli hide-out further west in the same massif. Getting the herds in would have been a great effort, but not impossible.

Sartar's city relies on the clans of Killard Vale below the main entrance of the city to feed the capital. His road enables the farmers to bring their produce into the high valley.

Personally, I regard the valley of Boldhome as a less remote variant of the Höllentalklamm above Garmisch-Partenkirchen. If you are an untrained lowlander urbanite, the ascend is quite demanding.

13 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

Furthest appears 'de novo' in all the recent canon stuff, as far as I can tell, but I also note it seems to have been built on an EWF City ruin according to 'Tarsh in Flames', and the maps, drawn from Greg's notes seem to indeed show an unnamed city there; the equally deuterocanonical Second Age material shows no such city. In fact, the Glorantha Sourcebook (and Tarsh in Flames) shows the Death line passing through the site. So as a former EWF ruin it aligns with the other material.

Middle Sea Empire makes it clear that the notion of the navigable river extended south of Kordros Island (named Liorn Island in the text), with banjarn located near the place where the Oslir splits around Kordros Island. Either the notion of "navigable" applied to smaller river craft than plying the Oslir further north, or the river changed significantly, possibly as a result of the Dragonkill.

We do know that the post-Dragonkill Alakoringite settlement at (or near) the current river port was razed by Phargentes and rebuilt using imperial layout and craftsmen, brought along from Sylila and Saird.

The importance of Furthest as trans-shipment port for Oslir barges meant that the place would have been re-settled as soon as Arim's Hidden Kingdom stopped hiding (by the time of the Battle of Quintus Vale in 1374 where Lunar (Sylilan?) and Tarshite forces overcame the Opili horse nomads) and started to take a leadership role in the neighboring territories of Holay and Aggar during Sheng's activities in Peloria.

Given the shifting of rivers, I am not entirely sure whether the new location of the city would have been exactly the same as its EWF predecessor. Looking at the well-constructed Roman period river port unearthed near Notre Dame de Paris, even well-constructed quayes in a city with continuous habitation would shift location.

On the other hand, there might be an artificial weir upriver of Furthest, maintaining a higher water level there, and the possibility of water power inside the city. The city of Augsburg on the Lech has numerous such canals, with cottage industries using simple waterwheels that used to provide rotation for e.g. carvers. Those canals postdate the Roman foundation of Augusta Vindelicorum by a few centuries at least, however, and no such feature was mentioned for either pre- nor post-Phargentes' Furthest.

Further upriver, there appears to be a series of rapids below the confluence of the two arns of the upper Oslir around Kordros Island, probably with a stretch of wide, rather calm waters before the rapids, and a bar of bedrock that doesn't get whittled away by detritus carried down. For comparison, neither the Rhine falls at Schaffhausen nor the Niagara Falls show much retrograding because the lakes upriver eliminate most of the abrasive detritus. Without such a stable barrier, Kordros would have ceased to be an island centuries ago, even if the river branches parting upriver of the island are caused by a great magical cause.

I would expect both branches of the Oslir around Kordros Island to be fairly placid most of the year, except for the great thaw in the Skyreach mountains or extraordinarily yieldful rainfalls.

 

13 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

I also prefer not visiting the rulers directly: make them trek a bit to see your performance. Showing up in his palace makes it seem like you serve him...

Showing up in the palace also precludes many of the ordinary folk from enjoying the show, weakening the magic that holds the Puppeteers together, and makes people feed them despite not being kin.

[scott-martin]

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

After all is said and done, the Puppeteers aren't primary producers (though possibly have a side line of hunting and gathering to make ends meet), and need to perform for people able to feed them. Illusionary food will satisfy hunger, but not energy needs.

Hunting and waltzing at least. But I hear you . . . I always thought they simply drifted with the crowd but the recent notes on their persistence after the Kill raise interesting questions. Would not be surprised to see them early in the ruins to reclaim the easy magic.

The 13th Age writeup contains a few pregnant details. Apparently the Troupe (or its reputation at least) makes it up to Glamour, where presumably they have their pick of the world's illusions but the Red Emperor himself is occasionally a fan. And as for Donandar, "minor god who was formerly in the Puppeteer Troupe but left to try to find a way to deal with Chaos."

[Joerg]

11 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Hunting and waltzing at least. But I hear you . . .

How dyonysian does it get?

The Troupe's common illusion does bear some similarity to the dragonewt dream, but doesn't reach its permanence.

Quote

I always thought they simply drifted with the crowd but the recent notes on their persistence after the Kill raise interesting questions. Would not be surprised to see them early in the ruins to reclaim the easy magic.

While their illusions don't survive the proximity of a True Dragon (or superhero), they remain stable in the presence of dragonewts.

It looks like both the Cross Line and the Death Line react only to entities crossing them. Illusionary troupes probably are free to pass.

The EWF cities failed when they were dropped out of the dragon dream with the 1040 mass utuma. The special food they relied on (described in Middle Sea Empire) rotted away, and survival demanded that the non-draconics went rural. Even though the death toll of the draconic thinkers must have been worse than a decimation, famine followed, and emigration from the overpopulated Pass into both Saird and Kethaela must have ensued.

Illusion is a fine gift for making unsavory but nourishing food palatable. 

Quote

The 13th Age writeup contains a few pregnant details. Apparently the Troupe (or its reputation at least) makes it up to Glamour, where presumably they have their pick of the world's illusions but the Red Emperor himself is occasionally a fan. And as for Donandar, "minor god who was formerly in the Puppeteer Troupe but left to try to find a way to deal with Chaos."

The Puppeteers are close enough to Nochet to allow the minor Marlesta to escape her family into the Troupe, which clearly means to me that Puppeteers do operate outside of Kerofinela proper. I would expect them as far down the Oslir as Sylila. If the Red Emperor deigns to see a show, he had better take a detour from Dorkath before returning to Glamour, IMO.

It is possible that the Puppeteers avoid the former Shadzoring range.

Edited September 9, 2018 by Joerg

[jeffjerwin]

While reading about places slightly further afield... I noticed that there's a ruined city ('Green Glass City') drowned in Skyfall Lake, conquered and enslaved by Chaos and destroyed during the Greater Darkness.

The conqueror was the chaos god Korang the Slayer, who possessed a terrible spear. The spear was destroyed by Hard Earth after it pierced Sky River.

Kor = Gor = 'earth'

Let's examine this.

'Spear' is a characteristic of several gods, notably Lodril, Yelmalio, and Argan Argar, but it's generally a fire/light weapon.

'Green Glass' is Earth fused by Heat.

Lodril is the consort of the Earth and the volcanic Indigo Mountains are nearby, while the water of Skyfall Lake boils when it strikes the ruins.

I wonder if Korang was a portion of Lodril/Veskarthen corrupted by chaos? Perhaps 'the portion' in the Ginijji civilization... hence his strange absence.

Edited September 11, 2018 by jeffjerwin

[Sir_Godspeed]

Don't forget that the spear of Korang was made of iron, meaning he either got or stole it from the Mostali, somehow. Or at some point some Chaos-being figured out the secret of making it. Either way, that's possibly another Earth/Stone-connection.

[jeffjerwin]

16 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Don't forget that the spear of Korang was made of iron, meaning he either got or stole it from the Mostali, somehow. Or at some point some Chaos-being figured out the secret of making it. Either way, that's possibly another Earth/Stone-connection.

The Ginijji culture may be one of the most advanced of the Greater Darkness: literacy, pottery and glass-making (both involve kilns, interestingly), barley-based agriculture (something that Durev and Orane later passed to the Vingkotlings)...

In the Caverns, a statue of Babeester Gor is described as made of copper with iron (!) armor over her.

The Snake Pipe itself is made of glass.

[scott-martin]

6 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

In the Caverns, a statue of Babeester Gor is described as made of copper with iron (!) armor over her.

This is extraordinary because Sky River Titan and Hard Earth are in love and Hard Earth gets a male pronoun.

Also the volcanic glass.

Edited September 11, 2018 by scott-martin

[jeffjerwin]

According to the Glorantha Sourcebook, glassblowing is a dwarf technology... and due north of Green Glass is... Greatway.

[jeffjerwin]

1 minute ago, scott-martin said:

This is extraordinary because Sky River Titan and Hard Earth are in love and Hard Earth gets a male pronoun.

Also the volcanic glass.

Sky River Titan is obviously gender fluid like Heler. They have whatever gender they need.

[jeffjerwin]

Hard Earth = Stone = Mostal.

Perhaps Greatway knows something other Dwarves don't.

Edited September 11, 2018 by jeffjerwin

[scott-martin]

19 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

Hard Earth = Stone = Mostal.

Who the heck was Mostal's dead brother Stone and why is there a Stability Rune anyway?

[Sir_Godspeed]

I wonder if there is some forgotten connection between Stone/Latsom, the rest of the Earth panoply (Gata, Genert, etc.) the ancient giants, and possibly even Larnste (High King Elf supposedly killed Stone and made all stone "still", and Larnste is the Movement old god who went around planting mountains...)

[jeffjerwin]

3 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I wonder if there is some forgotten connection between Stone/Latsom, the rest of the Earth panoply (Gata, Genert, etc.) the ancient giants, and possibly even Larnste (High King Elf supposedly killed Stone and made all stone "still", and Larnste is the Movement old god who went around planting mountains...)

Also, Maran Gor was 'moving earth' and Ty Kora Tek was 'dead/still earth'.

In the Gloranthan Sourcebook, Ty Kora Tek is alternately wife of Lodril, 'Iron God', and Mostal. 'Lodril' is a 'dwarf-friend'. Lodril is also the god of pottery.

Veskarthan/Lodril and Maran Gor hate each other; Maran Gor was forced into stillness (death!) by Ty Kora Tek, her aunt, the Dead Earth.

Plausibly we could reconstruct the pantheon of 'Green Glass Ruins' as Lodril, 'Iron God', and Mostal, along with Ty Kora Tek as their queen and wife.

The Orin Jistil/Skull Ruins were destroyed by the 'Stone' Dragon. Orin = Orvano = Orane [an aspect of Ernalda]. Hence this is the war of Moving Earth - Orlanth allied with Maran Gor and Kero Fin - against Stone and Volcanic Glass. The Ginijji culture seems to have fallen to kin strife (like the Storm peoples), with a major portion of the Stone People becoming Chaotic, possibly also seeing the soul-death of Mostal. Ginijji proper = snake pipe Dancers = hence Maran's people. Maran sides with Ernalda/Orin, agriculturalists, against the City of Glass and Stone.

Could Korang's spear be a tower of iron? A 'skyscraper' if you will?

[jeffjerwin]

Note Kora[ng], Ty Kora Tek.

Stone is Mostal's brother, but something has happened... 

See also Mostal's murder by 'High King Elf' - the Grower, the seedling of Aldrya... grandson of Ernalda.

Again, the kin strife of Stone and Loam; of Maker and Grower.

Lodril's heat destroys the fertile clay, makes it something hard and dead. Lodril's heat stops the moving sands, makes it still and fragile.

Ty Kora Tek slew Esrola, slew barley woman. She made Tekakos, 'rock' to stop Maran's movements, stilling her too.

What if the Dwarves made Chaos, made the Iron Spear, and the Green Glass City, and Korang the Destroyer, the embodiment of Taker... Mostal/Iron Man 'mass reproduced' Death, the tear by which Chaos came into the world, by inventing Iron.

I see the Green Glass ruins in my mind's eye as asphalt, concrete, steel. The maker takes until there is nothing left.

[Joerg]

"Green glass" is a good description for jade.

The Skyriver Titan descends to Dragon Pass myth is one of the very few somewhat positive Greater Darkness myths we have.

Stone, brother of Mostal, had already died/fallen comatose when the Spike collapsed/imploded. Lorion/Engizi jumping down is nice for slaying Korang, but the real story is about Engizi not seeking to heal the wound in the sky but instead rushing onward to join Magasta in the struggle to encapsule the void left after the invading Chaos horde and the Celestial Court annihilated one another. Some remaining Storm god must have done the same above, and Darkness must have contributed from below, too, but first and foremost it was the Churner and the aid by almost all of the waters of the world whose ongoing struggle prevents that rift to expand again.

Elsewhere, the world still got shattered and dissolved at the edges of the shards remaining, but without that feat, all of the world would have been sucked out into the Void, and end of story.

Orlanth did manage to defeat the Sky/Middle Air invasion of Sky Terror before he set off on the Lightbringer's Quest.

 

Reading the story in King of Sartar carefully, Korang's spear wasn't iron, but sharper than iron, able to cut through an adamantium helmet. Material like a horn of the devil or similar. It also was poisonous.

 

[jeffjerwin]

4 minutes ago, Joerg said:

"Green glass" is a good description for jade.

The Skyriver Titan descends to Dragon Pass myth is one of the very few somewhat positive Greater Darkness myths we have.

Stone, brother of Mostal, had already died/fallen comatose when the Spike collapsed/imploded. Lorion/Engizi jumping down is nice for slaying Korang, but the real story is about Engizi not seeking to heal the wound in the sky but instead rushing onward to join Magasta in the struggle to encapsule the void left after the invading Chaos horde and the Celestial Court annihilated one another. Some remaining Storm god must have done the same above, and Darkness must have contributed from below, too, but first and foremost it was the Churner and the aid by almost all of the waters of the world whose ongoing struggle prevents that rift to expand again.

Elsewhere, the world still got shattered and dissolved at the edges of the shards remaining, but without that feat, all of the world would have been sucked out into the Void, and end of story.

Orlanth did manage to defeat the Sky/Middle Air invasion of Sky Terror before he set off on the Lightbringer's Quest.

 

Reading the story in King of Sartar carefully, Korang's spear wasn't iron, but sharper than iron, able to cut through an adamantium helmet. Material like a horn of the devil or similar. It also was poisonous.

 

Ironspike is claimed to be it's point... [WF #15] which suggests a Ur-Iron or Chaotic Iron. Iron = poison, of course, for many peoples.

Edited September 11, 2018 by jeffjerwin

[scott-martin]

9 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Korang's spear wasn't iron, but sharper than iron, able to cut through an adamantium helmet.

The only reference to "Lodrilela" in the Guide, incidentally, is in the provenance of Ironbreaker.

[jeffjerwin]

I think the Skull Ruins must be illustrated in 13th Age in Glorantha, p.65...

[jeffjerwin]

In the spirit of YGMV, I should note that the cover of the most recent edition of King of Sartar clearly traces an Air rune over Kethaela and Dragon Pass... and there the Vent is Empty Mountain -- i.e., it is inverted from my interpretation.

However...

One could argue that Umath and Asrelia always have a sort of whirling geographical continuity. They are dancing. The route from Dini to Kero Fin follows the southwest opened rune and the route from Kero Fin to Orlanth Victorious (and Death/Lightbringing) follows the northeast opening rune. Hence when it has spun a full cycle, Orlanth emerges to cross the universe again.

[jeffjerwin]

Just reviving this thread to suggest, after re-reading various sources and examining the map in Six Ages, that the Aramites are connected to the Infithan/Infithetelli, who were descended from Infithe, twin sister of Jorganos, and her husband Proscriptor the Cannibal.

The northern part of the Infithetelli, of course, was conquered into the Empire of Light, and the Aramites were distinct by the Dawn, so, if so, they separated in the Greater Darkness. However in the Vingkotling age the tribe is said to have inhabited "Northern Tarsh" and the "Upper Black Eel" - Tarshford down to Slavewall or thereabouts. The Aramites never became Heortlings, of course, and the Stravuli are found - descendants of the Jorganostelli of the Upper Oslir - on the south bank of the Black Eel around Too Far by the Dawn. It will be interesting to see if Aram's people appear in later iterations of the game.

[Darius West]

I am super- impressed with this series of posts everyone, it's a gem.  I am also very glad you revived it Jeff or I might not have had my attention drawn to it, so thanks.  

Having read over this once (it all deserves a re-read), I am thinking that the Ginijji Culture sounds suspiciously like a match for the Feldichi, based on the many pertinent observations about it.  Superficially, both are highly technical, earth worshiping, and ultimately fell or turned to chaos.  This in turn raises the question of whether there is a connection between the Feldichi and the Vadeli in this context.  I have yet to play 6 Ages:RLtW, but it is on my to do list for 2019.