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Distinction between Sartarite Carls and Cottars?

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6 hours ago, Joerg said:

Given the gender-divided nature of the cults of Orlanth and Ernalda and the known (though not that common) case of female chiefs and kings, there can be no "if you are chief you are the clan priest of Orlanth" effect.

Can Vingans be chiefs?

Also, how is Orlanth Rex different from Orlanth the King?

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25 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Can Vingans be chiefs?

Yes.  Queen Leika of the Colymar for instance.

25 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Also, how is Orlanth Rex different from Orlanth the King?

They are the same.  The Chieftain of the clan becomes Chief Priest of the clan by becoming Orlanth Rex.

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Would it be possible, then, for a female Vingan cultist to "approach" the Orlanth Rex cult in order to become chieftain, depending on how the clan in question regards the relation between Vinga and Orlanth?

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35 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Yes.  Queen Leika of the Colymar for instance.

They are the same.  The Chieftain of the clan becomes Chief Priest of the clan by becoming Orlanth Rex.

That's not quite right. Orlanth Rex is a TRIBAL cult. The chief priest of the clan Orlanth temple serves as the chieftain of that clan (think village and its surroundings). The tribal Orlanth Rex is a special figure - he (or she) needs to be approved by all the tribal priests and that individual serves as the head (high priest) of the Orlanth cult (and binds all of the tribal Rune Masters to his Command Priests spell). The Orlanth Rex of a tribe is the tribal king.

The systems are not exactly parallel. 

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25 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Would it be possible, then, for a female Vingan cultist to "approach" the Orlanth Rex cult in order to become chieftain, depending on how the clan in question regards the relation between Vinga and Orlanth?

Vinga is a subcult of Orlanth, and so a Vinga cultist is an Orlanth cultist.

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my understanding / feeling / opinion is that in a poor clan, there is only one priest and one priestess. The clan chieftain is the priest of Orlanth. His wife, more often than not, is the priestess of Ernalda, particularly if the clan can't afford to support 2 separate families/households as nobles. In richer clans, they may well be able to afford 2, 3 or even more priests and priestesses and then other arrangements become practical.

The chieftain has to initiate to a a god that grants rulership and that will be usually be Dar (Orlanth), including many women chieftains; occasionally Orendana (Ernalda); with a fraction of a fraction worshiping Elmal. I suspect that other husbands of Ernalda (Heler, Argan Argar) may be able to find religious means to rulership, but this would be a story arc rather than a rule/well known path.

Most of the gods of the Orlanthi are not jealous, so initiating to another friendly deity of the pantheon is a non issue. During the Lunar occupation of Sartar, many clans appointed chieftains (and even kings of tribes) that did not primarily worship Orlanth. But all of them would have to initiate to a deity that grants rulership. And if pressed, they could truthfully say "I worship Dar not Orlanth" without risking divine retribution as religiously, Dar is Orlanth.

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44 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Vinga is a subcult of Orlanth, and so a Vinga cultist is an Orlanth cultist.

That sort of what I was getting at:

If we accept the premise that, in general,  Orlanth is a god of men, as opposed to Erlanda as a goddess of women,

and we accept the premise that a chief is a priest of Orlanth by definition (this seems to be the most contentious thing here),

but we also know there have been female chiefs and kings of the Orlanthi

Then my question is whether it would be an acceptable method for a woman to connect with Orlanth in preparation for chieftaincy by initiating to Vinga as a subcult of Orlanth. It basically boils down to, whether this would be compatible with Orlanth Rex as a subcult as well.

Or could she just stick with Ernalda or some other feminine goddess?

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2 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Then my question is whether it would be an acceptable method for a woman to connect with Orlanth in preparation for chieftaincy by initiating to Vinga as a subcult of Orlanth. It basically boils down to, whether this would be compatible with Orlanth Rex as a subcult as well.

Or could she just stick with Ernalda or some other feminine goddess?

yes to all of these options. Going further a woman can initiate to Dar, without specifying Vinga at all

opinions, of course

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1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Then my question is whether it would be an acceptable method for a woman to connect with Orlanth in preparation for chieftaincy by initiating to Vinga as a subcult of Orlanth. It basically boils down to, whether this would be compatible with Orlanth Rex as a subcult as well.

Or could she just stick with Ernalda or some other feminine goddess?

Either.

Both.

Ernalda (and some other Earth-Goddesses) lead to being Queen -- it's more often a "soft power" role (negotiating, alliances, trade, compromise, etc); but it IS rulership.  It's just not a very traditional mode for Sartarite rulership.

There are exceptions, as always -- the Feathered Horse Queen, afaik, is often a war-leader type figure.  Your Glorantha May Vary, My Glorantha May Vary, Chaosium's Glorantha May Vary, Greg's Glorantha May Vary.  And they do.

 

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Vingans can be chiefs, and to be honest, there is no problem with officiating for Orlanth whether your gender is male or vingan.

But female or nandan Ernaldans can be chief, too, and so can any number of other cultists who are not eligible for officiating at regular Orlanth services. This means that the clan needs to have an established priest of Orlanth anyway.

 

3 hours ago, Charles said:

my understanding / feeling / opinion is that in a poor clan, there is only one priest and one priestess. The clan chieftain is the priest of Orlanth. His wife, more often than not, is the priestess of Ernalda, particularly if the clan can't afford to support 2 separate families/households as nobles. In richer clans, they may well be able to afford 2, 3 or even more priests and priestesses and then other arrangements become practical.

So basically, in a poor clan the chieftain is not elected, but pre-determined to be whoever is the priest?

"Priest" including God Talkers, in this case.

So the chief dies in battle, and the clan has no priest of Orlanth any more?

For a marginal and poor clan, lets consider the Varmandi - a war clan, needing to raid to fend off starvation, with barely the minimum 500 people.

3 hours ago, Charles said:

The chieftain has to initiate to a a god that grants rulership and that will be usually be Dar (Orlanth), including many women chieftains; occasionally Orendana (Ernalda); with a fraction of a fraction worshiping Elmal.

No problem with that. Initiate, not God Talker.

Let's take the small clan with a single God Talker of Orlanth who doubles as chief, dying in battle. His replacement is the Ernalda God Talker initiating to Orendana. The clan is left without a single God Talker to perform the sacrifices. Sure, any initiate can step up and try to serve in a role two sizes too big for him.

3 hours ago, Charles said:

I suspect that other husbands of Ernalda (Heler, Argan Argar) may be able to find religious means to rulership, but this would be a story arc rather than a rule/well known path.

I would demand initiation to Orlanth Dar with accepting the burden of Chieftainhood. But letting a mere initiate with a single rune point to Orlanth preside over the Storm rites of the clan, possibly without much of a runic affinity? Not happening in my Glorantha.

The chief is automatically a god-talker for Orlanth (if not Orendana or Elmal Anatyr). But that doesn't make him the god-talker to Orlanth by choice.

 

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The answers depend on whether you follow the social and magical models implied  from the literature or the models presented in RuneQuest. In my opinion, the models in RuneQuest are there for gaming purposes first and matching the literary model second. And RuneQuest is better for that.

To me (a literary Gloranthaphile rather than a gamer), an Orlanthi priest is an appointed position. A godi is a vocational position. Often a godi will be appointed priest. And often not, as it’s the social connections that matter. A priest is fully supported by their congregation and therefore the ‘mad’ godi that tells them uncomfortable things will not be supported over the popular schmoozer who can just manage the ceremonies without stumbling.

Of course, when it matters, the social winds will blow another way.

And if you look in our world at the established Christian churches, a substantial minority of priests are in their positions not for the religious worship of God but to take advantage of their social position. And their elevation to bishop is not necessarily related to their theological ability or religious fervour but to other factors.

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3 hours ago, Charles said:

The answers depend on whether you follow the social and magical models implied  from the literature or the models presented in RuneQuest. In my opinion, the models in RuneQuest are there for gaming purposes first and matching the literary model second. And RuneQuest is better for that.

But: Were we discussing RuneQuest?

While much of Glorantha is perceived through the mask of gaming products, we are in the happy situation to have several game systems to provide us such masks, including non-rpgs like King of Dragon Pass and its successors.

3 hours ago, Charles said:

To me (a literary Gloranthaphile rather than a gamer),

That's my preferred approach, too

3 hours ago, Charles said:

an Orlanthi priest is an appointed position. A godi is a vocational position.

As a matter of weregeld price, yes. But you cannot be a priest without being a godi (or having at least one, better several, at your beck and call).

Theism is magic defined by what you are. You are called upon the clan ring (or equivalnt positions in similar hierarchies) for the magical benefit derived from being what you are. Placing a moderately suitable initiate on the ring for the effect his magic will have on the clan magic trumps placing the head of a bloodline on the inner ring.

Being a godi is a vocation and takes a considerable amount of time and resources, which limits the amount of godar a household can support, and then only if the godi vocation coincides with enough of the household's economic functions, or through appointment to clan priesthood with enough of a stipend/retainers.

 

3 hours ago, Charles said:

Often a godi will be appointed priest. And often not, as it’s the social connections that matter. A priest is fully supported by their congregation and therefore the ‘mad’ godi that tells them uncomfortable things will not be supported over the popular schmoozer who can just manage the ceremonies without stumbling.

You are mixing the rank of a clan thane (who has appointed retainers) with that of the role of the priest. A godi appointed to the priest rank will be a thane with retainers, a recognized godi will be ranked as a carl, and be appointed a retainer, too.

The priest appointment comes with leading the clan through the life-and-death deciding rituals. A strong godi in that role will be able to deal with the job. A weak appointee will require the support of several strong godar to make things happen.

Unlike in our real world non-magical hierarchies where party soldiers with no competence (outside of party lobbying, and all too often no insight) whatsoever will be appointed to a crucial office, there usually is a staff of people carrying the work load. Possibly in a "Yes, Minister" way.

To illustrate what damage such an appointee can do, I would forward the Geman appointee to the EU council, Öttinger. The ressorts he has been placed in have underperformed badly, but they still did perform somewhat thanks to the bureaucracy behind them. You won't find it hard to find other instances of underwhelming qualification of office holders and decision makers in current world politics...

3 hours ago, Charles said:

Of course, when it matters, the social winds will blow another way.

If you are a poor clan verging on famine and extinction from bad neighbors, you don't have the luxury to appoint even the third best candidate to as crucial an office as Orlanth or Ernalda priesthood, whatever their political relationship to the current chieftain.

3 hours ago, Charles said:

And if you look in our world at the established Christian churches, a substantial minority of priests are in their positions not for the religious worship of God but to take advantage of their social position. And their elevation to bishop is not necessarily related to their theological ability or religious fervour but to other factors.

The difference being that - apart from charismatic sects on the fringes of the religion - these priests aren't supposed to perform magic or miracles routinely. (The miracle of the Eucharism is conventiently independent of priestly activity beyond calling for it.)

Political or dynastic bishoprics exist, or used to exist. Even there, a minimum of progression in the initiations was required, but their office was more presiding than performing.

 

Dara Happa has its Yelmic nobility, eminently usesless social parasites but essential for their world order for what they are - divinely descended folk whose mere presence will strengthen the magic that keeps the world in order. Whether that order is worth maintaining can be left to debate.

The struggling Orlanthi clan has no such inherited divinity to gamble on. The Orlanthi concept of divine favour is individual identification with the deity and the deity's feats, and the appointed holder of an office is supposed to do things competently.

A struggling clan cannot afford an "oops" during the crucial rites to ensure at least minimum prosperity. A very wealthy clan may forgive that once or twice.

The Heimskringla has that charming episode of the Ynglinga king in Värmland who failed to deal with the climate change. In the first year, considerable amounts of life-stock were sacrificed. In the second year, slaves were sacrificed. In the third year, the king was sacrificed, and the people left for better places. The Orlanthi don't have an equivalent of this, except for the Sacred Kings who may extend their period of office at the end of each turn (Illaro). The Malkioni (at least of Loskalm) do have this kind of rite.

 

To get back to the original disagreement: If Jeff's statement that the clan chief will also be the clan priest refers to the number of retainers to carry the stipend and the resulting weregeld price, I can live with the statement, but deprieving a functional godi from the retainer stipend will result in weaker magic for the clan. Those structures of support are there for necessity, not for aggrandizement of the office holders.

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2 hours ago, Joerg said:

But: Were we discussing RuneQuest?

While much of Glorantha is perceived through the mask of gaming products, we are in the happy situation to have several game systems to provide us such masks, including non-rpgs like King of Dragon Pass and its successors.

That's my preferred approach, too

As a matter of weregeld price, yes. But you cannot be a priest without being a godi (or having at least one, better several, at your beck and call).

Theism is magic defined by what you are. You are called upon the clan ring (or equivalnt positions in similar hierarchies) for the magical benefit derived from being what you are. Placing a moderately suitable initiate on the ring for the effect his magic will have on the clan magic trumps placing the head of a bloodline on the inner ring.

Being a godi is a vocation and takes a considerable amount of time and resources, which limits the amount of godar a household can support, and then only if the godi vocation coincides with enough of the household's economic functions, or through appointment to clan priesthood with enough of a stipend/retainers.

 

You are mixing the rank of a clan thane (who has appointed retainers) with that of the role of the priest. A godi appointed to the priest rank will be a thane with retainers, a recognized godi will be ranked as a carl, and be appointed a retainer, too.

The priest appointment comes with leading the clan through the life-and-death deciding rituals. A strong godi in that role will be able to deal with the job. A weak appointee will require the support of several strong godar to make things happen.

Unlike in our real world non-magical hierarchies where party soldiers with no competence (outside of party lobbying, and all too often no insight) whatsoever will be appointed to a crucial office, there usually is a staff of people carrying the work load. Possibly in a "Yes, Minister" way.

To illustrate what damage such an appointee can do, I would forward the Geman appointee to the EU council, Öttinger. The ressorts he has been placed in have underperformed badly, but they still did perform somewhat thanks to the bureaucracy behind them. You won't find it hard to find other instances of underwhelming qualification of office holders and decision makers in current world politics...

If you are a poor clan verging on famine and extinction from bad neighbors, you don't have the luxury to appoint even the third best candidate to as crucial an office as Orlanth or Ernalda priesthood, whatever their political relationship to the current chieftain.

The difference being that - apart from charismatic sects on the fringes of the religion - these priests aren't supposed to perform magic or miracles routinely. (The miracle of the Eucharism is conventiently independent of priestly activity beyond calling for it.)

Political or dynastic bishoprics exist, or used to exist. Even there, a minimum of progression in the initiations was required, but their office was more presiding than performing.

 

Dara Happa has its Yelmic nobility, eminently usesless social parasites but essential for their world order for what they are - divinely descended folk whose mere presence will strengthen the magic that keeps the world in order. Whether that order is worth maintaining can be left to debate.

The struggling Orlanthi clan has no such inherited divinity to gamble on. The Orlanthi concept of divine favour is individual identification with the deity and the deity's feats, and the appointed holder of an office is supposed to do things competently.

A struggling clan cannot afford an "oops" during the crucial rites to ensure at least minimum prosperity. A very wealthy clan may forgive that once or twice.

The Heimskringla has that charming episode of the Ynglinga king in Värmland who failed to deal with the climate change. In the first year, considerable amounts of life-stock were sacrificed. In the second year, slaves were sacrificed. In the third year, the king was sacrificed, and the people left for better places. The Orlanthi don't have an equivalent of this, except for the Sacred Kings who may extend their period of office at the end of each turn (Illaro). The Malkioni (at least of Loskalm) do have this kind of rite.

 

To get back to the original disagreement: If Jeff's statement that the clan chief will also be the clan priest refers to the number of retainers to carry the stipend and the resulting weregeld price, I can live with the statement, but deprieving a functional godi from the retainer stipend will result in weaker magic for the clan. Those structures of support are there for necessity, not for aggrandizement of the office holders.

If a clan can't support a full-time priest-chieftain, it isn't struggling - it is doomed.

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8 minutes ago, Jeff said:

If a clan can't support a full-time priest-chieftain, it isn't struggling - it is doomed.

Then the Varmandi may have been doomed time and again when raiding went bad and tribute was denied. But then a war clan can survive as an independent bandit warband with dependents and reform when the times are getting better.

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18 hours ago, Joerg said:

But letting a mere initiate with a single rune point to Orlanth preside over the Storm rites of the clan, possibly without much of a runic affinity?

This looks like RuneQuest to me, hence my comment. Apologies if we have crossed wires.

In many cases, I feel that the linkage is the other way around than RuneQuest or HeroQuest model: it is the appointment to a community supported position that allows a person to develop their magic.

BTW, I’m not a huge fan of the idea of ‘independent’ temple complexes scattered all over Sartar with large priesthoods (that is independent of a clan or a tribe). There are a very few, and most (all?) of those are well known from the literature, largely listed in S:KoH (starting from page 113). Basically, there’s Lankhor Mhy and Chalana Arroy in Jonstown, Ernalda/Greenstone, Orlanth/Old Wind and (possibly) Ernalda and Orlanth in Boldhome.

All the other holy places in Sartar are attached to clans or tribes and few of them are temples with a permanent priesthood.

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1 hour ago, Charles said:

This looks like RuneQuest to me, hence my comment. Apologies if we have crossed wires.

In many cases, I feel that the linkage is the other way around than RuneQuest or HeroQuest model: it is the appointment to a community supported position that allows a person to develop their magic.

BTW, I’m not a huge fan of the idea of ‘independent’ temple complexes scattered all over Sartar with large priesthoods (that is independent of a clan or a tribe). There are a very few, and most (all?) of those are well known from the literature, largely listed in S:KoH (starting from page 113). Basically, there’s Lankhor Mhy and Chalana Arroy in Jonstown, Ernalda/Greenstone, Orlanth/Old Wind and (possibly) Ernalda and Orlanth in Boldhome.

All the other holy places in Sartar are attached to clans or tribes and few of them are temples with a permanent priesthood.

Almost all temples are connected to a clan, tribe, or under the patronage of the Prince of Sartar (or their equivalent).

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Yeah, it certainly doesn't feel like a stretch to say that the "independent" Greenstone temple is still pretty much joined at the hip with the Colymar tribe and the Ernaldori clan - even if it has some independent weight to throw around. Not sure about how this idea impacts Old Wind, though. The city temples would then quite logically fall under the patronage of the princes.

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56 minutes ago, Grievous said:

Yeah, it certainly doesn't feel like a stretch to say that the "independent" Greenstone temple is still pretty much joined at the hip with the Colymar tribe and the Ernaldori clan - even if it has some independent weight to throw around. Not sure about how this idea impacts Old Wind, though. The city temples would then quite logically fall under the patronage of the princes.

Do you mean the Clearwine and the Colymar? I immediately eliminated that, but didn’t remember or have the time to look up Greenstone.

On the other hand, I’m moderately sure that Old Wind is independent

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5 minutes ago, Charles said:

Do you mean the Clearwine and the Colymar? I immediately eliminated that, but didn’t remember or have the time to look up Greenstone.

On the other hand, I’m moderately sure that Old Wind is independent

Old Wind can only very approximately said to be in Sartar at all. It's also politically absent, at least until the Hero Wars. It's a good place to explore the atmospheric aspect of Orlanth, who's kind of an amoral force of sheer power, rather than a specifically helpful, stay in one place and help the clan survive kind of god. Like Mystics, the godi of Old Wind care only about the struggle for the Middle Air and the true meaning of Larnste (and the like) and are basically no longer focused on pragmatic needs...

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25 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

Old Wind can only very approximately said to be in Sartar at all.

Agreed. I'm home now and can check maps

Greenstone is a temple on Malani lands. Having said that, there is the possibility that the Malaini are the clients of the temple rather than the other way around :D

So basically no truly independent temple with a large priesthood in Sartar...

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On 9/13/2018 at 2:23 PM, Joerg said:

But you cannot be a priest without being a godi (or having at least one, better several, at your beck and call).

Cannot? I’m not sure that I can agree.

My idea is that the role of a priest is to lead religious ceremonies and rituals of (hopefully) large numbers of worshippers, where the number of worshippers is the key determinant of success. Other factors affect the success but are less important than that number. So a sociable but magically subpar priest that attracts the whole community will be more effective than a strong magician that can only get a few to attend.

OK, I get that I’m making an extreme example. And communities will usually balance their concerns and choose someone that is effective in both of these dimensions (and likely many more dimensions) to be their priest.

In Orlanthi religion, only a very few worship only their initiated deity and never any other. ‘Everyone’ sacrifices to and worships Ernalda and Orlanth regularly, even if initiated to, say, Lankhor Mhy, and during the Sacred Time ceremonies and rituals, there is worship and sacrifice to all the major deities and everyone takes part to ensure the world continues. Of course, there are the unresheathed Humakti, “but anyway they’re already dead”, and maybe one or two disciples (using a Hero Wars term) or other weirdos who do not take part, “but they are our weirdos”.

So most clan level priests will find themselves leading important events where there is no initiate of the relevant deity present. And this is completely normal and usual.

Edited by Charles

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21 hours ago, Charles said:

Agreed. I'm home now and can check maps

Greenstone is a temple on Malani lands. Having said that, there is the possibility that the Malaini are the clients of the temple rather than the other way around :D

So basically no truly independent temple with a large priesthood in Sartar...

Yeah, I got Clearwine and Greenstone mixed up earlier - sorry! But yeah, I think Greenstone would qualify as independent. Nothing what we know about the Malani really suggests any strong links like that (and please correct me if I'm missing something). The Malani are a crazy, warlike and Humakti-embracing bunch as far as I know.

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1 hour ago, Grievous said:

Yeah, I got Clearwine and Greenstone mixed up earlier - sorry! But yeah, I think Greenstone would qualify as independent. Nothing what we know about the Malani really suggests any strong links like that (and please correct me if I'm missing something). The Malani are a crazy, warlike and Humakti-embracing bunch as far as I know.

Greenstone is not independent.

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1 hour ago, Charles said:

Cannot? I’m not sure that I can agree.

Pretty serious about cannot, really, when it comes to the two main cults. Those services do heavy lifting for the magic available to the clan, and the better the leader of the service is attuned to these magics, the less of the magical sacrifice of the congregation will go to waste. And attendance to the holy days of the big cults is quite mandatory, and might even attract those cousins living in the city every now and then.

Think of it like donating to a charity. Your Mr. Popular "I have heard about the god" will be able to pass on only a fraction of the magic that a dour but deeply magically immersed god talker can.

1 hour ago, Charles said:

My idea is that the role of a priest is to lead religious ceremonies and rituals of (hopefully) large numbers of worshippers, where the number of worshippers is the key determinant of success. Other factors affect the success but are less important than that number. So a sociable but magically subpar priest that attracts the whole community will be more effective than a strong magician that can only get a few to attend.

Clearly overstating things, yes. A worship or sacrfice service is a nice opportunity to feast on the meat of the sacrificial beasts, so only Chalana Arroy holidays might be culinarily disappointing. It is a day off the fields or the forge, an opportunity to meet folk and talk thins through.

If you live on an isolated stead, this is the chance to meet all those friends and kin gathered in one place rather than spread all over the tula.

 

To be honest, the very notion that a clan holy day service has to compete for its audience of lay worshippers strikes me as a bit odd. A specialist temple that attracts cultists from neighboring clans might compete with another temple of that cult three clans away for the attendance of initiates, but in that case alliances, feuds and antipathies  may play a greater role than the showmanship of the leader of the service.

1 hour ago, Charles said:

OK, I get that I’m making an extreme example. And communities will usually balance their concerns and choose someone that is effective in both of these dimensions (and likely many more dimensions) to be their priest.

It is the difference between a charity spending most of their earnings on advertisements and organisation with little throughput and a highly efficient, low overhead charity that passes most of their earnings on to the target group of the charity.

 

1 hour ago, Charles said:

In Orlanthi religion, only a very few worship only their initiated deity and never any other. ‘Everyone’ sacrifices to and worships Ernalda and Orlanth regularly, even if initiated to, say, Lankhor Mhy, and during the Sacred Time ceremonies and rituals, there is worship and sacrifice to all the major deities and everyone takes part to ensure the world continues. Of course, there are the unresheathed Humakti, “but anyway they’re already dead”, and maybe one or two disciples (using a Hero Wars term) or other weirdos who do not take part, “but they are are weirdos”.

There is nothing to stop guests and pilgrims from joining the outer circle of worship - for Ernalda rites, I imagine that Imperial occupation forces present might have joined on the outer ring of worshippers, too.

Also, on clan level every worship service includes worship/feeding of the wyter, and that's a duty that directly repays. Refusal to give magic to the wyter is only one step from leaving the community.

1 hour ago, Charles said:

So most clan level priests will find themselves leading important events where there is no initiate of the relevant deity present. And this is completely normal and usual.

I had the impression that the clan would invite a holy person better qualified to contact the deity for sacrifices. I don't have any examples for clans doing so, but Orgwaha Blue Llama officiating on Storm Bull's holy day in Boldhome during Temertain's reign is a documented case for such practice.

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On 9/12/2018 at 2:15 PM, Sir_Godspeed said:

If we accept the premise that, in general,  Orlanth is a god of men, as opposed to Erlanda as a goddess of women,

Orlanth is the god of Men and Ernalda is the goddess of Women, but Vinga is the goddess of Women who worship Orlanth and nadan is the god of Men who worship Erlanda. Nothing hard about that! 😉

 

On 9/12/2018 at 2:15 PM, Sir_Godspeed said:

and we accept the premise that a chief is a priest of Orlanth by definition (this seems to be the most contentious thing here),

It shouldn't be contentious, as Orlanth Rex has been around for donkeys years and OrlanthDar has been around since Hero Wars.

Not all Orlanthi Clans have an Orlanth Rex or Orlanthdar chieftain, it is possible to have a different worshipper as a chieftan or king. However, the best fit is Orlanthdar or Orlanth Rex.

I can't remember if Orlanth Rex is the reformed version of Orlanthdar, or if they are separate subcults, or what their relationship is.

On 9/12/2018 at 2:15 PM, Sir_Godspeed said:

but we also know there have been female chiefs and kings of the Orlanthi

Then my question is whether it would be an acceptable method for a woman to connect with Orlanth in preparation for chieftaincy by initiating to Vinga as a subcult of Orlanth. It basically boils down to, whether this would be compatible with Orlanth Rex as a subcult as well.

Or could she just stick with Ernalda or some other feminine goddess?

Ernalda is the Earth Queen, so in areas where Earth is stronger than Storm, for example in Esrolia, the Queen will worship the subcult of Ernalda the Queen.

In typical Orlanthi areas, it is possible for a woman to worship Ernalda the Queen and rule, or to worship Vinga with Orlanth Rex and rule, it is rare but possible.

 

Edited by soltakss

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